On a night when Jackson Holliday stole the show at Camden Yards with a dramatic grand slam and win over the Blue Jays, the Orioles lost All Star third baseman Jordan Westburg with a fractured hand. Luke Jones and Nestor discuss what this shakeup will do for the lineup, infield and the future of Coby Mayo.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
orioles, holiday, hit, year, week, jordan, baseball, westbrook, terms, owings mills, bat, play, cleveland, gunnar, starting, talked, pitch, hurts, player, jackson
SPEAKERS
Nestor J. Aparicio, Luke Jones
Nestor J. Aparicio 00:01
Welcome home we are W and S T, Towson Baltimore. Baltimore positive am 1570 Such dial out there we’ve had things set up if you are in search of our wn S T tech service, throw me an email. That’s the Baltimore positive.com. I’ll give some words on that because we get some breaking news through the week and, and breaking wrists as well. Luke Jones joins us now. He was in the backfield and Owings Mills. We have a complication here and that he’s the only reporter that they allow at both facilities. So when the Orioles are playing and the Ravens are playing, he does one or the other. I do the other which is usually the television because they don’t televise the practices from Owings Mills. And you have to have a ticket to get in. So I can’t even get into the Owings Mills practices. Look George’s now. First things first. Practice aside and football aside, it’s good to be back out there. But the Jackson holiday thing and as far as baseball games go and sort of the momentous nature of the first game after the trading deadline. They call up Jackson holiday, they ship Norby out Westberg takes this freak pitch on the inside that was way too reminiscent of Nick Markakis for me. I think that happened a little later in the year but certainly all star player guy on the come. You know, this is a big deal. Jordan Westbrook getting hurt, especially when they’ve dealt from organizational depth. And now they’re going to pick up the pieces for another eight weeks kind of sort of what happened with the Keystone went out last year.
Luke Jones 01:33
It definitely hurts. There’s no sugarcoating that this is a pretty big loss. Let’s let’s understand it’s baseball. No matter how great a player is, they bet one out of every nine times up at the plate because there is a full lineup. So it’s not like losing your franchise quarterback, for example. But this is a big loss. I mean, Jordan Westberg fan grabs has him second on the Orioles and wins above replacement this year. He is a ranking in the top three and many offensive categories for the Orioles. And he was an all star player. So this is a big loss. The timing of it hurts to your point right after the trade deadline. And how about the fact that the Orioles finished the homestand on a high note, they won four out of five to close the homestand they went four out of five to close the month of July that was brutal, for lack of a better term. And you feel like the Mojo is starting to move back in the right direction. Jackson Holliday comes back up hits a grand slam and we’ll get to him in a moment. But Jordan Westberg has just been so steady for them. And so good,
Nestor J. Aparicio 02:40
man 270. He’s got 50 extra bass. Hey, I mean, it’s crazy. And it’s over right season that what I see on the stats is what it’s going to be probably i He’s not gonna come out swinging a bat in September, I don’t think Well,
Luke Jones 02:53
I don’t know that I’m not I’m not going to. But
Nestor J. Aparicio 02:56
it’s it’s seasons close to over. But how about that? Well, I
Luke Jones 03:00
mean, in terms of the regular season. I mean, we got to see I mean, Brandon Hyde in his postgame comments said that. They’re hopeful he can be back before the end of the regular season. And yeah, I mean, that’s you look at the timeline. It’s now August 1, and there’s two months a season left, if this is a six week kind of injury, and you know, it’s a fractured hand, you know, kind of got him on kind of the pinky side, as I’m holding up. You know, my right hand for anyone who isn’t watching us on YouTube. It’s almost
Nestor J. Aparicio 03:28
that soft part. Right. You know what I mean? You could see that it looked when he walked down to first base, and like, he’s not gonna play he’s hurt. I mean, when you could see the you saw the replay, you’re like, that was a pretty direct nasty pitch.
Luke Jones 03:41
Yeah, you’re just hoping it’s one of those. We’re okay. It’s sore. And I’ll miss a couple of days. But unfortunately, that was not the case. It’s it’s different from Marcus in the sense of like you said, the timing of it, Marcus, that was early September, when that happened. And that was the thumb, actually. So this is the other side of the hand. We’ll see. Obviously, they’re going to do additional tests than just an x ray to see what exactly the fracture looks like what the prognosis is, in terms of a timetable. The way Brandon Hyde said before the end of the regular season, that kind of, to me, maybe the initial thought was it’s a six week injury, and then it’s, you know, then Okay, does, you know, it’s kind of tough to get rehab at bats. At that point. You’re kind of towards the end of the triple A season there. Although not might be able to get a few games in there, but it’s tight. I mean, there’s no doubt and certainly missing him. The timing of Jackson holiday coming up on the same day. I mean, Jackson holiday hits a grand slam on the next at bat, you know, on an ode to pitch Westberg was at first base after he had been hit. So it’s just a bummer. I mean, it really is it’s not doesn’t ruin their season. It doesn’t mean they’re not going to make the playoffs or anything like that. But you need as much upside you need as much consistency as you can get when you’re in the midst of a tight race with the New York Yankees in the Al east and you’re trying To make a deep October run, so just hours
Nestor J. Aparicio 05:02
ago, we’re talking about one relief pitcher this or that don’t, don’t diminish the team don’t take my All Stars away, you know that definitely, it changes to complain. And when you talk about the Yankees every day, because of their age and the brutal nature of the stands, and the judges and all these guys that have had injuries, you’re always feel like they’re old and broken down. You’re feeling like we got that going for us. You know what I mean? Other than actual fatigue, which we experienced a lot of in July, including you this week. I would say other than fatigue, it didn’t feel like this was going to break down there something tragic was gonna have to happen. And it did. Yeah, but
Luke Jones 05:38
at the same time, it’s baseball. No one player is as big as if the Lakers lose LeBron James, or the Ravens lose Lamar Jackson, right? I mean, it’s just by its nature, you have to wait your turn. So it’s big. Don’t get me wrong. I mean, you I think, you know, this from the way I’ve talked to it, and Westbrook is probably my favorite player on the team in terms of just a guy that’s so steady, so consistent. So much of a pro plays good defense at two positions. I was actually looking forward to him not just with holiday coming up, and and perhaps stabilizing second base for them in the wake of Matteo having struggled for the time that he did and then getting hurt. But also this was gonna give Westbrook a chance to play third base every day, which I think he’s been better there defensively than he’s been at second base. So I think this was a chance for your infield defense to also steady a little bit. And that’s been an issue for them over the last month. It hadn’t been prior to that. But certainly their defense has had its lapses. We’ve talked about that. But it’s just it’s a bummer. Because this is a guy that’s just been so steady for them in the bottom half of their lineup. Usually, I mean, you could make an argument that he should be hitting senator for third or fourth or second, right, sure. But he’s been that guy that I think Brandon Hyde has kind of identified as you know, this is kind of a silly thing to say but almost like your prime run producer in the bottom half of the lineup, almost like your cleanup hitter in the second half of the line was gonna anchor the bottom of the line. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, we’ve seen them hit higher in the order sometimes, but a lot of times it’s been, you know, somewhere in that sixth or seventh, you know, area I think that’s where he’s probably hit most often without looking at the splits right in front of me. But, you know, I saw some people make mention, you know, they just traded Conor Norby obviously to Miami. I don’t know how much impact that would have made in terms other than just having more depth and having another more offensive mind to depth either he or a holiday we’re gonna play third. Right, right. So the only thing you could have done and I’m not even saying you wouldn’t do this, but I’m guessing you probably wouldn’t go in this direction. You could have considered moving Gunnar Anderson to 30 days holiday plan, short Norby at second. That’s a lot of moving parts there especially considering holiday has focused so much on second base, although at this point in time with Matteo our holidays might be their backup shortstop.
Nestor J. Aparicio 08:06
Henderson being a shortstop versus a third baseman, and he kicked the ball around every day for two weeks now, shortstop in some way that, you know, maybe he’s gonna be a third base, but he won’t be westwards played. But to your point. If Henderson’s the shortstop, you’re gonna leave that alone. You’re not gonna Yeah.
Luke Jones 08:24
And look, I mean, I believe me, I agree. Gunner has been in a fielding slump. But prior to the last two weeks, he’s played really well at show at shortstop, I mean, make spectacular plays. And yes, when you have someone who makes spectacular plays, they’re going to get to some balls that other shortstops won’t even sniff. And on occasion, they might throw it away, right so so you do take a few more errors when you have that more dynamic field or knowing that they’re just going to get the more but
Nestor J. Aparicio 08:50
Machado was a better fielder and I don’t say much nice about Machado around here. But you know, just on a on a defensive level. Machado was one of those third short swing guys, and a lot of them could be Ripken was a guy that you moved around a little bit. But the Henderson The shortstop thing that just became a thing last year, and I thought the whole time he came up I thought they were leaning more toward third. And maybe it’s because Matteo was playing short at the time, right, the beginning.
Luke Jones 09:14
No, I think they were kind of leaning that way. And Matteo was part of that of course, but I think they saw that Gunnar just played so well at shortstop last year and and played so well. They’re there over the first three months of this year. Again, I’m not I’m not freaking out over a couple of weeks, although we need to settle it and I mean, they made two more airs on Wednesday. So, but yeah, I don’t think you would have done that much shuffling. I mean, that feels like trying to fix too much being broken that you know, where you just say okay, for now, remote areas is gonna play third base remote areas who? Look, I don’t. If I’m being honest, I don’t want to see him starting games in October. But for now, I think it’s fine. It’s fine defensively. He did have a good month of July offensively. One of the few guys who actually swung the bat well in the month of July, and I think for now, Kobe Mayo is probably going to go back to playing third base every day at Norfolk for the time being because they had kind of been working him out at first base a little bit more here in recent weeks maybe with the thoughts of maybe Ryan mountcastle gets traded what it you know, so so they had kind of it felt like they were trending in that direction for him now maybe we see him play third base they’re calling up livan Soto who they just got got back from the ER they got in that red straight. For the time being, he’s gonna be a bench player. He can play shortstop. So I think that that’s a factor to backup Gunnar Henderson there knowing Matteo is still on the aisle. So regardless, you know, kind of Norby is not coming back through that door. Jorge Mateo is injured and now Jordan Westbrook is out until well into September the way it sounds, it stinks. I mean, it does. I mean it this hurts. Again, this doesn’t change my thoughts on them being an obvious playoff team doesn’t mean they can’t win the Al east but you need other people to step up and that’s where maybe we transition to talk about Jackson Holliday and the good the good vibes of him returning hitting a Grand Slam thought he made some other good contact as well struck out once he’s going to strike out some
Nestor J. Aparicio 11:20
struck out after he hit the ball a quarter of an inch away from hitting a home run right right so three run home run would it would have been seven RBI day
Luke Jones 11:29
right but but my point is I mean he has swing and miss he hits when you miss a triple A even so I think that’s for Westbrook strikes a lot. Right? I mean, Colin Couser, who continues to swing the bat really well. Colton Couser has a lot of swing and miss Cohen counselors a little more than you’d like but he does so many other things that that you can live with it but this is this coinciding with Jackson holidays return is a reminder of what kind of player Jackson holiday the Oreos envisioned him being now let me be very clear here. I’m not suggesting that Jackson holidays gonna step right in and give you Jordan Westberg production I think that would be unfair to expect that of a 20 year old. But if they can get a steadier version of Jackson holiday, let that let’s just say and I was talking about this with someone out at ravens practice, you know, someone who just watches the Orioles on a nightly basis and routes for the team and everything said if Jackson holiday at age 20. Understand this is not what I’m talking about. He’s going to be moving forward. But at age 20 If he can kind of give you league average offensive production at second base, and play good defense there, and look much more equipped to handle being a big leaguer than he did back in April. And I don’t mean like the mental side or anything like that. I think this kid is mature beyond his years, but just the actual challenge the physical demands of playing major league baseball, if he can do that, and take walks like he did at the minor league level, probably not at that same high rate, but at least close to that, then I think that will be that could go a long way in helping to fill some of that production that you’re missing with Jordan Westbrook and yeah, let’s go down the list. Gunnar Henderson needs to find his powers Power Stroke again. You know, they didn’t have a terrible July, but certainly the power was down a little bit. But Adley rutschman is the big one. I mean, they need Adley rutschman to start swinging the bat again. I mean, Nestor go,
Nestor J. Aparicio 13:24
if you want something that’s bigger, his splits, you know, like, I’m wondering, what are his splits the last six weeks? I mean, it’s gotta be Is he hitting a 121? I
Luke Jones 13:34
mean, in the month of July he, I haven’t. I’m going off of what I saw a couple days ago. It was somewhere in the neighborhood of like 125 in the month of July. So obviously he needs to start hitting and hitting like Adley rutschman. Again, so. So that’s the thing. I mean, the one thing we’ve talked about and look, we know that their offense scuffled, everything scuffled in July, I mean, we know that we talked about it for weeks now. But this is a deep lineup. So even though you’re gonna miss Jordan Westbrook and you’re gonna miss Jordan Westbrook a lot. It’s not as though you’re the Yankees were, you know, he talked about them being a two man lineup for, you know, up until recently where they’re starting to play better again. But I mean, this, this hurts, and certainly, Ramona Reyes isn’t going to do what Jordan Westbrook does. And even if they do call up Kobe Mayo at some point in the next couple of weeks and give him an extended look at third base, it’s still going to be a tall order to expect him to step right in and start raking in the way that Jordan Westberg is capable of doing it. So so this is loss. I mean, it’s definitely a hit. It definitely hurts their trajectory in terms of trying to win the Al east. It doesn’t to me it doesn’t doesn’t harm their playoff chances. Right. I mean, they’re going to be a playoff team, but in terms of reaching your ceiling and winning as many games as you need. To down the stretch, because it does look like the Yankees are starting to play better baseball. I mean, they just swept the Phillies, you know, so they need to be playing at a high level and starting this weekend in Cleveland, where it’s gonna be a tough ask against a really good guardians team, they’re going to have to pick up the slack for Jordan Westberg. But just the timing of it just stinks because it really felt like with the deadline, and holiday coming up, and the fact that they’ve looked, they played better baseball over the last four or five days, kind of felt like, okay, they’re flying again, right. I
Nestor J. Aparicio 15:32
mean, they’ve endured three, four pitching injuries, if it’s a short Teesta. You know, all they’ve endured. All of that is they’ve endured the slump in July. And now they’ve endured the trading deadline where they weren’t big winners, but I think they improve the baseball team. I think we spent, you know, all day Wednesday talking about and probably all day here on the radio, just talking about like, the the improved around the margins. And when you have rutschman Henderson Westberg don’t anymore, but Santander, you got burns, you got Rodriguez, and you got all the pieces there closer was an issue still is an issue, even though he spent a lot of money in the offseason. But this is demoralizing a little bit to have this kid go down the way he has. But it’s also to your point an opportunity for holiday to step up. And maybe you don’t need to hit a grand slam every night and come close to seven RBIs every night. But to your point showing that he’s in is and not that might be.
Luke Jones 16:26
Yeah. And I think for him to have that success in his first game back, I think is going to be huge for him. And look, again, to your point, it doesn’t mean he’s going to start hitting bombs every other game and all that I think you still have to have an expectation of, for example, go back and look at what kind of offensive player Manny Machado was his first year in 2012. When he got caught up in August. Look, man, he was a similar age, right? I mean, Mandy was 20 years old. So we’re batting him seventh or eighth at that time. And he had his moments and he held his own but he wasn’t what Manny Machado would be even the next year, let alone three, four or five years down the line. So I think we need to understand what the expectations for a 20 year old in a major league lineup should be which is if he can be somewhere in the in the realm of average as an offensive player and play good defense, then that’s still a valuable player for you, especially considering Matteo had really fallen off since early June. So So again, it’s not as simple as saying, well holiday replaces Westbrook’s production. I mean, that’s ambitious, you know, that would be very ambitious, especially considering how much we saw holiday struggle back in April. But I think for him mentally and emotionally, to have the Grand Slam to have the curtain call to have the ovations to nearly have another long ball. I think that does so much for him for from a confidence standpoint. The last thing you wanted Nestor was holiday to come up. And even if he’s been able to compartmentalize and he’s completely blocked out what happened in April, because that give us three months ago, the last thing you wanted was him to start off Oh, for 13 on this latest return to the major leagues, and then suddenly he’s got in his head again that, you know, can I do this? Um, you know, he’s starting to doubt himself for him to hit the Grand Slam. And what is third at bat? I think that does a lot for him to say, alright, I’ve hit a home run at the major league level now, I’ve hit a grand slam at the major league level now. I’ve gotten a curtain call at the major league level now. I can do this. And it doesn’t mean I’m not going to be overconfident and cocky now, either, but I can do this and I’ve had some success and my teammates were excited for me when I hit the Grand Slam. Now he can settle in. The lights aren’t quite as bright as they were in April in terms of when you’re making your debut and MLB network’s doing special features on you and all that kind of stuff. Now it’s yes, there was excitement and yes, it was newsworthy that he was called back up but it’s a pennant race. Now it’s August, right I’ll be the Orioles are in first place. I mean, the Yankees are right there with them. And it’s much more about the results in April. No one’s looking at the standings at that point in time. So there was more of a fool looking at over 4045 visually right yeah, and don’t and again, don’t get me wrong. That’s why I said it was important for him to have this immediate success. I think that’s gonna go a long way for his competence. And they don’t need him to be great. But they need him to be part of what’s going to be a collective effort to pick up the slack for for that Jordan Westbrook production and and yes, I think there’s a good chance it could be Kobe male at some point here later this month, but for right now, they’re going for a defense reserve bench kind of guy and livan Soto who, again was part of that trade that the Orioles made with Cincinnati the other day. He had initially been optioned to trip away but he will join the team in Cleveland and I fully expect remote areas to be starting at third base primarily at least for the time being until Kobe Mayo potentially gets that call. Don’t tell much
Nestor J. Aparicio 20:03
Bishop this I had breakfast with him earlier this week and you’ll hear him you can find him out of Baltimore positive. He’s only been on the radio in Cleveland for 43 years, covering all of it. And we talked to him brown socks and Rock Hall talks to Michael Stanley, but talked a lot about the Indians, guardians. Baseball in Cleveland, how people come the history of all of it. Albert Bell we did on Eddie Murray, Dennis Martinez, signing by Erica Bell and Lofton back in the day, which is now 30 years ago. They’re the best team in the American League as we arrive. And when I start to think about October being Oh, eight weeks away, and I clear my schedule for the first week of October, think who replan boy, the Indians are going to be in the way in October. And you’re gonna get a look at him this weekend. And, you know, we talk about seeing teams or not seeing teams or what our team’s gonna look like whether Westberg is going to be back and who our pitchers are going to be. And now we got Eflin Rogers and these guys in there. This is um, this is an interesting little measurement here this week to get a look at the Cleveland guardians knowing that they’re gonna be in the way and I mean, of all the things that that I know, they’re going to make the playoffs they’re going to be in the way in October in one way or another. Yeah,
Luke Jones 21:12
I mean, whether they’re on a collision course or not, I mean, hey, it’s baseball and they’re short series and you never know but they’re gonna be there and they played great baseball this year. We’re Orioles are gonna get a look at their pitching. Obviously. We talked about this when Cleveland came to town earlier this season. Great bullpen. I mean, their bullpen is I’m envious of their bullpen in terms of having three four or five guys that are just you can bring in in any spot and they’re just going to do the job. I mean, that’s just that’s what I’ve been saying sit here
Nestor J. Aparicio 21:42
on August 1 If they’re in the World Series and we’re not in the Yankees aren’t it’s because of that. We’ll sit here and say I’ll say Luke’s talked about their bullpen all summer, you know. Sure. I mean, it’s it’s important to open a baseball right I mean, Philadelphia side they dealt this to their guys. Yeah,
Luke Jones 21:57
on Philadelphia still add it to their bullpen. So I mean, sure, the Phillies bullpen very formidable and we talked about that when they came to town but I think what’s going to be interesting this series for the Orioles is a Burns is going to pitch the finale but Grayson Rodriguez not starting in this series. We are going to get our first look at Trevor Rogers. We’re going to get our second look at Zach Eflin. We’re going to see Cleveland Carrasco is going to make a start, he has not been good, but the rest of that rotation. It’s not a dominant, unbelievable rotation, but it’s a good rotation with a great bullpen that follows it
Nestor J. Aparicio 22:33
so like ours, it would look better with beaver our rotation would look better with Bradish. Yeah, yeah.
Luke Jones 22:38
So I mean, you know, Tanner Bybee will start on Saturday, he’s, he’s kind of become their ace, you know, Ben lively starts the opener and Gavin Williams will pitch the finale against burns. So it’s gonna be a challenge, especially know Jordan last Berg now and what that means for the bottom half of your lineup. So you hope Ramona Reyes, who, who swung the bat quite well, in the month of July, I’ll be understanding he doesn’t play every single day, but he was playing a lot. You’re hoping he can continue that for the time being because I know a lot of fans were clamoring immediately for Kobe male, and I think we’re going going to see him now. I’m not think I’m very confident we’re going to see him at some point, especially now with Westbrook’s injury, but it or either of those guys going to be what Jordan Westbrook gives you with the bat, you know, I mean, I think Kobe male eventually could be that or could be better in the long run now in terms of his ceiling, but we’ve also seen just about all of their young players struggle, initially, when they get caught up, I mean, including rutschman, including Gunnar Henderson Westberg, last year called Couser. Last year, holiday earlier this year, I mean, that’s just the way it works. It’s really difficult. You know, the jump from triple A to the majors is maybe bigger than it’s ever been. And I know some people have, I’ve seen some smart columnist and baseball scribes even opine on that, because of the pitching crisis in Major League Baseball in terms of, if you’re a triple A pitcher worth your salt, you’re not there very long, because they need you at the major league level in most cases. So, triple wavers. alts are great, triple A success is great. You certainly want guys to hit a triple A, but that does not mean it’s going to translate to the major leagues right away. So it stinks to lose Jordan Westberg you know what you’re talking about one of your three best players all year, you know, somewhere in that realm. So you hope that he can make a return by you know, if best case scenario to me would be maybe mid September, and he can get some at bats under his belt and get himself back into the swing of things for whatever their postseason path is going to be. Whether it’s division wildcard, whatever it is, but we’re gonna have to see what the further testing looks like. We’re gonna have to see what the healing process looks like. And anytime you’re talking about I mean, it’s good that this wasn’t the wrist. I’d rather have it be hand and wrist because you know Anytime you’re talking about the wrist and the little bones in there and what that can mean for someone’s swing, that’s when you’re really skeptical as far as how quickly you can come back hand is where he got hit your hope is a little bit better. But look, I’m just trying to you know, putting lipstick on a pig when I’m trying to talk like that. I mean that’s this is this is a tough blow for the Orioles for the time being there’s no doubt about it and they’re going to need other guys to step up in a big way.
Nestor J. Aparicio 25:26
Luke Jones will be in Owings Mills all weekend long we’ll be monitoring all things Cleveland guardians and the Orioles all week and long you can find all of our work at Baltimore positive and Luke can be found in real time out of social media as Can I from LinkedIn to Instagram to Facebook and Twitter and acts and threads and stuff we don’t even understand. We’ll get some more baseball in here. We’ve had a lot of baseball conversation this week, including on money, payroll trading deadline, Mr. Rubinstein’s money and just a lot of changes around the baseball team this week. So Luke’s on that I’m on that we’re on that we are WNS da and 1570, Towson Baltimore, and we never stopped talking Birdland or your baseball. Good luck in Cleveland.
