On a night when Jackson Holliday stole the show at Camden Yards with a dramatic grand slam and win over the Blue Jays, the Orioles lost All Star third baseman Jordan Westburg with a fractured hand. Luke Jones and Nestor discuss what this shakeup will do for the lineup, infield and the future of Coby Mayo.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
orioles, holiday, hit, year, week, jordan, baseball, westbrook, terms, owings mills, bat, play, cleveland, gunnar, starting, talked, pitch, hurts, player, jackson
SPEAKERS
Nestor J. Aparicio, Luke Jones
Nestor J. Aparicio 00:01
Welcome home we are W and S T, Towson Baltimore. Baltimore positive am 1570 Such dial out there weโve had things set up if you are in search of our wn S T tech service, throw me an email. Thatโs the Baltimore positive.com. Iโll give some words on that because we get some breaking news through the week and, and breaking wrists as well. Luke Jones joins us now. He was in the backfield and Owings Mills. We have a complication here and that heโs the only reporter that they allow at both facilities. So when the Orioles are playing and the Ravens are playing, he does one or the other. I do the other which is usually the television because they donโt televise the practices from Owings Mills. And you have to have a ticket to get in. So I canโt even get into the Owings Mills practices. Look Georgeโs now. First things first. Practice aside and football aside, itโs good to be back out there. But the Jackson holiday thing and as far as baseball games go and sort of the momentous nature of the first game after the trading deadline. They call up Jackson holiday, they ship Norby out Westberg takes this freak pitch on the inside that was way too reminiscent of Nick Markakis for me. I think that happened a little later in the year but certainly all star player guy on the come. You know, this is a big deal. Jordan Westbrook getting hurt, especially when theyโve dealt from organizational depth. And now theyโre going to pick up the pieces for another eight weeks kind of sort of what happened with the Keystone went out last year.
Luke Jones 01:33
It definitely hurts. Thereโs no sugarcoating that this is a pretty big loss. Letโs letโs understand itโs baseball. No matter how great a player is, they bet one out of every nine times up at the plate because there is a full lineup. So itโs not like losing your franchise quarterback, for example. But this is a big loss. I mean, Jordan Westberg fan grabs has him second on the Orioles and wins above replacement this year. He is a ranking in the top three and many offensive categories for the Orioles. And he was an all star player. So this is a big loss. The timing of it hurts to your point right after the trade deadline. And how about the fact that the Orioles finished the homestand on a high note, they won four out of five to close the homestand they went four out of five to close the month of July that was brutal, for lack of a better term. And you feel like the Mojo is starting to move back in the right direction. Jackson Holliday comes back up hits a grand slam and weโll get to him in a moment. But Jordan Westberg has just been so steady for them. And so good,
Nestor J. Aparicio 02:40
man 270. Heโs got 50 extra bass. Hey, I mean, itโs crazy. And itโs over right season that what I see on the stats is what itโs going to be probably i Heโs not gonna come out swinging a bat in September, I donโt think Well,
Luke Jones 02:53
I donโt know that Iโm not Iโm not going to. But
Nestor J. Aparicio 02:56
itโs itโs seasons close to over. But how about that? Well, I
Luke Jones 03:00
mean, in terms of the regular season. I mean, we got to see I mean, Brandon Hyde in his postgame comments said that. Theyโre hopeful he can be back before the end of the regular season. And yeah, I mean, thatโs you look at the timeline. Itโs now August 1, and thereโs two months a season left, if this is a six week kind of injury, and you know, itโs a fractured hand, you know, kind of got him on kind of the pinky side, as Iโm holding up. You know, my right hand for anyone who isnโt watching us on YouTube. Itโs almost
Nestor J. Aparicio 03:28
that soft part. Right. You know what I mean? You could see that it looked when he walked down to first base, and like, heโs not gonna play heโs hurt. I mean, when you could see the you saw the replay, youโre like, that was a pretty direct nasty pitch.
Luke Jones 03:41
Yeah, youโre just hoping itโs one of those. Weโre okay. Itโs sore. And Iโll miss a couple of days. But unfortunately, that was not the case. Itโs itโs different from Marcus in the sense of like you said, the timing of it, Marcus, that was early September, when that happened. And that was the thumb, actually. So this is the other side of the hand. Weโll see. Obviously, theyโre going to do additional tests than just an x ray to see what exactly the fracture looks like what the prognosis is, in terms of a timetable. The way Brandon Hyde said before the end of the regular season, that kind of, to me, maybe the initial thought was itโs a six week injury, and then itโs, you know, then Okay, does, you know, itโs kind of tough to get rehab at bats. At that point. Youโre kind of towards the end of the triple A season there. Although not might be able to get a few games in there, but itโs tight. I mean, thereโs no doubt and certainly missing him. The timing of Jackson holiday coming up on the same day. I mean, Jackson holiday hits a grand slam on the next at bat, you know, on an ode to pitch Westberg was at first base after he had been hit. So itโs just a bummer. I mean, it really is itโs not doesnโt ruin their season. It doesnโt mean theyโre not going to make the playoffs or anything like that. But you need as much upside you need as much consistency as you can get when youโre in the midst of a tight race with the New York Yankees in the Al east and youโre trying To make a deep October run, so just hours
Nestor J. Aparicio 05:02
ago, weโre talking about one relief pitcher this or that donโt, donโt diminish the team donโt take my All Stars away, you know that definitely, it changes to complain. And when you talk about the Yankees every day, because of their age and the brutal nature of the stands, and the judges and all these guys that have had injuries, youโre always feel like theyโre old and broken down. Youโre feeling like we got that going for us. You know what I mean? Other than actual fatigue, which we experienced a lot of in July, including you this week. I would say other than fatigue, it didnโt feel like this was going to break down there something tragic was gonna have to happen. And it did. Yeah, but
Luke Jones 05:38
at the same time, itโs baseball. No one player is as big as if the Lakers lose LeBron James, or the Ravens lose Lamar Jackson, right? I mean, itโs just by its nature, you have to wait your turn. So itโs big. Donโt get me wrong. I mean, you I think, you know, this from the way Iโve talked to it, and Westbrook is probably my favorite player on the team in terms of just a guy thatโs so steady, so consistent. So much of a pro plays good defense at two positions. I was actually looking forward to him not just with holiday coming up, and and perhaps stabilizing second base for them in the wake of Matteo having struggled for the time that he did and then getting hurt. But also this was gonna give Westbrook a chance to play third base every day, which I think heโs been better there defensively than heโs been at second base. So I think this was a chance for your infield defense to also steady a little bit. And thatโs been an issue for them over the last month. It hadnโt been prior to that. But certainly their defense has had its lapses. Weโve talked about that. But itโs just itโs a bummer. Because this is a guy thatโs just been so steady for them in the bottom half of their lineup. Usually, I mean, you could make an argument that he should be hitting senator for third or fourth or second, right, sure. But heโs been that guy that I think Brandon Hyde has kind of identified as you know, this is kind of a silly thing to say but almost like your prime run producer in the bottom half of the lineup, almost like your cleanup hitter in the second half of the line was gonna anchor the bottom of the line. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, weโve seen them hit higher in the order sometimes, but a lot of times itโs been, you know, somewhere in that sixth or seventh, you know, area I think thatโs where heโs probably hit most often without looking at the splits right in front of me. But, you know, I saw some people make mention, you know, they just traded Conor Norby obviously to Miami. I donโt know how much impact that would have made in terms other than just having more depth and having another more offensive mind to depth either he or a holiday weโre gonna play third. Right, right. So the only thing you could have done and Iโm not even saying you wouldnโt do this, but Iโm guessing you probably wouldnโt go in this direction. You could have considered moving Gunnar Anderson to 30 days holiday plan, short Norby at second. Thatโs a lot of moving parts there especially considering holiday has focused so much on second base, although at this point in time with Matteo our holidays might be their backup shortstop.
Nestor J. Aparicio 08:06
Henderson being a shortstop versus a third baseman, and he kicked the ball around every day for two weeks now, shortstop in some way that, you know, maybe heโs gonna be a third base, but he wonโt be westwards played. But to your point. If Hendersonโs the shortstop, youโre gonna leave that alone. Youโre not gonna Yeah.
Luke Jones 08:24
And look, I mean, I believe me, I agree. Gunner has been in a fielding slump. But prior to the last two weeks, heโs played really well at show at shortstop, I mean, make spectacular plays. And yes, when you have someone who makes spectacular plays, theyโre going to get to some balls that other shortstops wonโt even sniff. And on occasion, they might throw it away, right so so you do take a few more errors when you have that more dynamic field or knowing that theyโre just going to get the more but
Nestor J. Aparicio 08:50
Machado was a better fielder and I donโt say much nice about Machado around here. But you know, just on a on a defensive level. Machado was one of those third short swing guys, and a lot of them could be Ripken was a guy that you moved around a little bit. But the Henderson The shortstop thing that just became a thing last year, and I thought the whole time he came up I thought they were leaning more toward third. And maybe itโs because Matteo was playing short at the time, right, the beginning.
Luke Jones 09:14
No, I think they were kind of leaning that way. And Matteo was part of that of course, but I think they saw that Gunnar just played so well at shortstop last year and and played so well. Theyโre there over the first three months of this year. Again, Iโm not Iโm not freaking out over a couple of weeks, although we need to settle it and I mean, they made two more airs on Wednesday. So, but yeah, I donโt think you would have done that much shuffling. I mean, that feels like trying to fix too much being broken that you know, where you just say okay, for now, remote areas is gonna play third base remote areas who? Look, I donโt. If Iโm being honest, I donโt want to see him starting games in October. But for now, I think itโs fine. Itโs fine defensively. He did have a good month of July offensively. One of the few guys who actually swung the bat well in the month of July, and I think for now, Kobe Mayo is probably going to go back to playing third base every day at Norfolk for the time being because they had kind of been working him out at first base a little bit more here in recent weeks maybe with the thoughts of maybe Ryan mountcastle gets traded what it you know, so so they had kind of it felt like they were trending in that direction for him now maybe we see him play third base theyโre calling up livan Soto who they just got got back from the ER they got in that red straight. For the time being, heโs gonna be a bench player. He can play shortstop. So I think that thatโs a factor to backup Gunnar Henderson there knowing Matteo is still on the aisle. So regardless, you know, kind of Norby is not coming back through that door. Jorge Mateo is injured and now Jordan Westbrook is out until well into September the way it sounds, it stinks. I mean, it does. I mean it this hurts. Again, this doesnโt change my thoughts on them being an obvious playoff team doesnโt mean they canโt win the Al east but you need other people to step up and thatโs where maybe we transition to talk about Jackson Holliday and the good the good vibes of him returning hitting a Grand Slam thought he made some other good contact as well struck out once heโs going to strike out some
Nestor J. Aparicio 11:20
struck out after he hit the ball a quarter of an inch away from hitting a home run right right so three run home run would it would have been seven RBI day
Luke Jones 11:29
right but but my point is I mean he has swing and miss he hits when you miss a triple A even so I think thatโs for Westbrook strikes a lot. Right? I mean, Colin Couser, who continues to swing the bat really well. Colton Couser has a lot of swing and miss Cohen counselors a little more than youโd like but he does so many other things that that you can live with it but this is this coinciding with Jackson holidays return is a reminder of what kind of player Jackson holiday the Oreos envisioned him being now let me be very clear here. Iโm not suggesting that Jackson holidays gonna step right in and give you Jordan Westberg production I think that would be unfair to expect that of a 20 year old. But if they can get a steadier version of Jackson holiday, let that letโs just say and I was talking about this with someone out at ravens practice, you know, someone who just watches the Orioles on a nightly basis and routes for the team and everything said if Jackson holiday at age 20. Understand this is not what Iโm talking about. Heโs going to be moving forward. But at age 20 If he can kind of give you league average offensive production at second base, and play good defense there, and look much more equipped to handle being a big leaguer than he did back in April. And I donโt mean like the mental side or anything like that. I think this kid is mature beyond his years, but just the actual challenge the physical demands of playing major league baseball, if he can do that, and take walks like he did at the minor league level, probably not at that same high rate, but at least close to that, then I think that will be that could go a long way in helping to fill some of that production that youโre missing with Jordan Westbrook and yeah, letโs go down the list. Gunnar Henderson needs to find his powers Power Stroke again. You know, they didnโt have a terrible July, but certainly the power was down a little bit. But Adley rutschman is the big one. I mean, they need Adley rutschman to start swinging the bat again. I mean, Nestor go,
Nestor J. Aparicio 13:24
if you want something thatโs bigger, his splits, you know, like, Iโm wondering, what are his splits the last six weeks? I mean, itโs gotta be Is he hitting a 121? I
Luke Jones 13:34
mean, in the month of July he, I havenโt. Iโm going off of what I saw a couple days ago. It was somewhere in the neighborhood of like 125 in the month of July. So obviously he needs to start hitting and hitting like Adley rutschman. Again, so. So thatโs the thing. I mean, the one thing weโve talked about and look, we know that their offense scuffled, everything scuffled in July, I mean, we know that we talked about it for weeks now. But this is a deep lineup. So even though youโre gonna miss Jordan Westbrook and youโre gonna miss Jordan Westbrook a lot. Itโs not as though youโre the Yankees were, you know, he talked about them being a two man lineup for, you know, up until recently where theyโre starting to play better again. But I mean, this, this hurts, and certainly, Ramona Reyes isnโt going to do what Jordan Westbrook does. And even if they do call up Kobe Mayo at some point in the next couple of weeks and give him an extended look at third base, itโs still going to be a tall order to expect him to step right in and start raking in the way that Jordan Westberg is capable of doing it. So so this is loss. I mean, itโs definitely a hit. It definitely hurts their trajectory in terms of trying to win the Al east. It doesnโt to me it doesnโt doesnโt harm their playoff chances. Right. I mean, theyโre going to be a playoff team, but in terms of reaching your ceiling and winning as many games as you need. To down the stretch, because it does look like the Yankees are starting to play better baseball. I mean, they just swept the Phillies, you know, so they need to be playing at a high level and starting this weekend in Cleveland, where itโs gonna be a tough ask against a really good guardians team, theyโre going to have to pick up the slack for Jordan Westberg. But just the timing of it just stinks because it really felt like with the deadline, and holiday coming up, and the fact that theyโve looked, they played better baseball over the last four or five days, kind of felt like, okay, theyโre flying again, right. I
Nestor J. Aparicio 15:32
mean, theyโve endured three, four pitching injuries, if itโs a short Teesta. You know, all theyโve endured. All of that is theyโve endured the slump in July. And now theyโve endured the trading deadline where they werenโt big winners, but I think they improve the baseball team. I think we spent, you know, all day Wednesday talking about and probably all day here on the radio, just talking about like, the the improved around the margins. And when you have rutschman Henderson Westberg donโt anymore, but Santander, you got burns, you got Rodriguez, and you got all the pieces there closer was an issue still is an issue, even though he spent a lot of money in the offseason. But this is demoralizing a little bit to have this kid go down the way he has. But itโs also to your point an opportunity for holiday to step up. And maybe you donโt need to hit a grand slam every night and come close to seven RBIs every night. But to your point showing that heโs in is and not that might be.
Luke Jones 16:26
Yeah. And I think for him to have that success in his first game back, I think is going to be huge for him. And look, again, to your point, it doesnโt mean heโs going to start hitting bombs every other game and all that I think you still have to have an expectation of, for example, go back and look at what kind of offensive player Manny Machado was his first year in 2012. When he got caught up in August. Look, man, he was a similar age, right? I mean, Mandy was 20 years old. So weโre batting him seventh or eighth at that time. And he had his moments and he held his own but he wasnโt what Manny Machado would be even the next year, let alone three, four or five years down the line. So I think we need to understand what the expectations for a 20 year old in a major league lineup should be which is if he can be somewhere in the in the realm of average as an offensive player and play good defense, then thatโs still a valuable player for you, especially considering Matteo had really fallen off since early June. So So again, itโs not as simple as saying, well holiday replaces Westbrookโs production. I mean, thatโs ambitious, you know, that would be very ambitious, especially considering how much we saw holiday struggle back in April. But I think for him mentally and emotionally, to have the Grand Slam to have the curtain call to have the ovations to nearly have another long ball. I think that does so much for him for from a confidence standpoint. The last thing you wanted Nestor was holiday to come up. And even if heโs been able to compartmentalize and heโs completely blocked out what happened in April, because that give us three months ago, the last thing you wanted was him to start off Oh, for 13 on this latest return to the major leagues, and then suddenly heโs got in his head again that, you know, can I do this? Um, you know, heโs starting to doubt himself for him to hit the Grand Slam. And what is third at bat? I think that does a lot for him to say, alright, Iโve hit a home run at the major league level now, Iโve hit a grand slam at the major league level now. Iโve gotten a curtain call at the major league level now. I can do this. And it doesnโt mean Iโm not going to be overconfident and cocky now, either, but I can do this and Iโve had some success and my teammates were excited for me when I hit the Grand Slam. Now he can settle in. The lights arenโt quite as bright as they were in April in terms of when youโre making your debut and MLB networkโs doing special features on you and all that kind of stuff. Now itโs yes, there was excitement and yes, it was newsworthy that he was called back up but itโs a pennant race. Now itโs August, right Iโll be the Orioles are in first place. I mean, the Yankees are right there with them. And itโs much more about the results in April. No oneโs looking at the standings at that point in time. So there was more of a fool looking at over 4045 visually right yeah, and donโt and again, donโt get me wrong. Thatโs why I said it was important for him to have this immediate success. I think thatโs gonna go a long way for his competence. And they donโt need him to be great. But they need him to be part of whatโs going to be a collective effort to pick up the slack for for that Jordan Westbrook production and and yes, I think thereโs a good chance it could be Kobe male at some point here later this month, but for right now, theyโre going for a defense reserve bench kind of guy and livan Soto who, again was part of that trade that the Orioles made with Cincinnati the other day. He had initially been optioned to trip away but he will join the team in Cleveland and I fully expect remote areas to be starting at third base primarily at least for the time being until Kobe Mayo potentially gets that call. Donโt tell much
Nestor J. Aparicio 20:03
Bishop this I had breakfast with him earlier this week and youโll hear him you can find him out of Baltimore positive. Heโs only been on the radio in Cleveland for 43 years, covering all of it. And we talked to him brown socks and Rock Hall talks to Michael Stanley, but talked a lot about the Indians, guardians. Baseball in Cleveland, how people come the history of all of it. Albert Bell we did on Eddie Murray, Dennis Martinez, signing by Erica Bell and Lofton back in the day, which is now 30 years ago. Theyโre the best team in the American League as we arrive. And when I start to think about October being Oh, eight weeks away, and I clear my schedule for the first week of October, think who replan boy, the Indians are going to be in the way in October. And youโre gonna get a look at him this weekend. And, you know, we talk about seeing teams or not seeing teams or what our teamโs gonna look like whether Westberg is going to be back and who our pitchers are going to be. And now we got Eflin Rogers and these guys in there. This is um, this is an interesting little measurement here this week to get a look at the Cleveland guardians knowing that theyโre gonna be in the way and I mean, of all the things that that I know, theyโre going to make the playoffs theyโre going to be in the way in October in one way or another. Yeah,
Luke Jones 21:12
I mean, whether theyโre on a collision course or not, I mean, hey, itโs baseball and theyโre short series and you never know but theyโre gonna be there and they played great baseball this year. Weโre Orioles are gonna get a look at their pitching. Obviously. We talked about this when Cleveland came to town earlier this season. Great bullpen. I mean, their bullpen is Iโm envious of their bullpen in terms of having three four or five guys that are just you can bring in in any spot and theyโre just going to do the job. I mean, thatโs just thatโs what Iโve been saying sit here
Nestor J. Aparicio 21:42
on August 1 If theyโre in the World Series and weโre not in the Yankees arenโt itโs because of that. Weโll sit here and say Iโll say Lukeโs talked about their bullpen all summer, you know. Sure. I mean, itโs itโs important to open a baseball right I mean, Philadelphia side they dealt this to their guys. Yeah,
Luke Jones 21:57
on Philadelphia still add it to their bullpen. So I mean, sure, the Phillies bullpen very formidable and we talked about that when they came to town but I think whatโs going to be interesting this series for the Orioles is a Burns is going to pitch the finale but Grayson Rodriguez not starting in this series. We are going to get our first look at Trevor Rogers. Weโre going to get our second look at Zach Eflin. Weโre going to see Cleveland Carrasco is going to make a start, he has not been good, but the rest of that rotation. Itโs not a dominant, unbelievable rotation, but itโs a good rotation with a great bullpen that follows it
Nestor J. Aparicio 22:33
so like ours, it would look better with beaver our rotation would look better with Bradish. Yeah, yeah.
Luke Jones 22:38
So I mean, you know, Tanner Bybee will start on Saturday, heโs, heโs kind of become their ace, you know, Ben lively starts the opener and Gavin Williams will pitch the finale against burns. So itโs gonna be a challenge, especially know Jordan last Berg now and what that means for the bottom half of your lineup. So you hope Ramona Reyes, who, who swung the bat quite well, in the month of July, Iโll be understanding he doesnโt play every single day, but he was playing a lot. Youโre hoping he can continue that for the time being because I know a lot of fans were clamoring immediately for Kobe male, and I think weโre going going to see him now. Iโm not think Iโm very confident weโre going to see him at some point, especially now with Westbrookโs injury, but it or either of those guys going to be what Jordan Westbrook gives you with the bat, you know, I mean, I think Kobe male eventually could be that or could be better in the long run now in terms of his ceiling, but weโve also seen just about all of their young players struggle, initially, when they get caught up, I mean, including rutschman, including Gunnar Henderson Westberg, last year called Couser. Last year, holiday earlier this year, I mean, thatโs just the way it works. Itโs really difficult. You know, the jump from triple A to the majors is maybe bigger than itโs ever been. And I know some people have, Iโve seen some smart columnist and baseball scribes even opine on that, because of the pitching crisis in Major League Baseball in terms of, if youโre a triple A pitcher worth your salt, youโre not there very long, because they need you at the major league level in most cases. So, triple wavers. alts are great, triple A success is great. You certainly want guys to hit a triple A, but that does not mean itโs going to translate to the major leagues right away. So it stinks to lose Jordan Westberg you know what youโre talking about one of your three best players all year, you know, somewhere in that realm. So you hope that he can make a return by you know, if best case scenario to me would be maybe mid September, and he can get some at bats under his belt and get himself back into the swing of things for whatever their postseason path is going to be. Whether itโs division wildcard, whatever it is, but weโre gonna have to see what the further testing looks like. Weโre gonna have to see what the healing process looks like. And anytime youโre talking about I mean, itโs good that this wasnโt the wrist. Iโd rather have it be hand and wrist because you know Anytime youโre talking about the wrist and the little bones in there and what that can mean for someoneโs swing, thatโs when youโre really skeptical as far as how quickly you can come back hand is where he got hit your hope is a little bit better. But look, Iโm just trying to you know, putting lipstick on a pig when Iโm trying to talk like that. I mean thatโs this is this is a tough blow for the Orioles for the time being thereโs no doubt about it and theyโre going to need other guys to step up in a big way.
Nestor J. Aparicio 25:26
Luke Jones will be in Owings Mills all weekend long weโll be monitoring all things Cleveland guardians and the Orioles all week and long you can find all of our work at Baltimore positive and Luke can be found in real time out of social media as Can I from LinkedIn to Instagram to Facebook and Twitter and acts and threads and stuff we donโt even understand. Weโll get some more baseball in here. Weโve had a lot of baseball conversation this week, including on money, payroll trading deadline, Mr. Rubinsteinโs money and just a lot of changes around the baseball team this week. So Lukeโs on that Iโm on that weโre on that we are WNS da and 1570, Towson Baltimore, and we never stopped talking Birdland or your baseball. Good luck in Cleveland.