There is plenty to debate regarding the “new” Baltimore Orioles and offseason with promise and hope for the franchise to take a major step forward under the ownership of David Rubenstein and the deft leadership of Mike Elias. That said, the Friday afternoon news dump of the Camden Yards left field wall and the lack of a free agency splash don’t feel like anything that will excite the fan base.
Nestor Aparicio and Luke Jones discussed the Baltimore Orioles’ offseason moves, including the decision to move the left field wall back. Jones defended the change, citing its necessity for a more neutral field, while Aparicio criticized the timing and transparency of the announcement. They also debated the Orioles’ payroll strategy, with Jones arguing against high-priced free agents like Juan Soto and emphasizing the importance of a balanced approach. Aparicio expressed frustration with the team’s historical frugality and the lack of a clear vision from new ownership. Both agreed on the need for better community engagement and transparency from the Orioles’ front office. Luke Jones and Nestor Aparicio discuss the Baltimore Orioles’ new ownership and strategic decisions. Jones emphasizes the importance of having knowledgeable management to avoid past mistakes like those of Peter Angelos. They debate the potential acquisition of Juan Soto, with Jones arguing that the Orioles already have promising young stars like Gunnar Henderson and Adley Rutschman. Jones criticizes the team’s handling of social media and transparency, citing the move of the left field wall as an example of poor communication. Aparicio stresses the need for the team to be transparent and accountable, reflecting on the Orioles’ past glory and the current challenges of fan engagement and player retention.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Maryland crab cake tour, Baltimore Orioles, left field wall, new ownership, payroll strategy, free agent signings, baseball offseason, Camden Yards, Mr. Splash, fan engagement, revenue projections, community trust, player development, market expectations, franchise vision, Juan Soto, Gunner Henderson, Adley Rutschman, new ownership, low expectations, social media, player marketing, St. Louis, Albert Pujols, World Series, fan base, transparency, accountability, empty seats, media pass
SPEAKERS
Luke Jones, Nestor Aparicio
Nestor Aparicio 00:01
Welcome home. We are W, N, S T, am 1570 Towson, Baltimore and Baltimore positive. We are taking the Maryland crab cake tour out on the road through the holidays. We’re green mount station this week, and of course, next week, we’ll be having turkey. And then after that, we’re going into December. Just gonna be a lot of crab cakes going on, so many crab cakes that I’m actually going I’m actually going to amici didn’t have a crab cake. They got a pine redundo. I gotta mix it up. They probably got some pumpkin cheesecake and some cannoli there, and some meatballs with gravy as well. But we’re doing, uh, we’re going to meet cheese. We’re going to be at Cocos. We’re going to be a Costas. We’re going to be at fadelies. We’re going to be at State Fair. We’re going to be Cooper’s north so lots and lots of places, all of it brought to you by our friends at the Maryland lottery and Jiffy Lube, a multi care I was a Jiffy Lube live. That’s next summer. Luke Jones is here. He’s live. We talk a lot of football around here. We’ll continue to talk Lamar and holiday and Thanksgiving and all of that, but the Friday News dump in and around Steelers week and no free agent signings with baseball, everybody can see, I’m wearing my curio wellness orange and black off season gear here in in November, defense, dude, it’s almost a punch line. I don’t I don’t want to be mean. I don’t want to be judgmental about their science. And it feels like Greg Bader still running the place when they’re doing Friday afternoon news dumps, having the GM run away from the fence, saying we made a big mistake. Don’t bring it up again. I I don’t know, dude, you get after it with the fence, because we’ve talked about it a lot. I don’t know. I mean, it’s, um, it’s, it’s just funny to me. It’s, it’s comical more than it’s functional. Well,
Luke Jones 01:51
I mean, first of all, it’s not something to be outraged about. Let’s be clear about that. And I’m not saying you’re outraged. I thought from the moment I laid eyes on it on opening day, or it might have been the day before. They might have done a workout at the ballpark the day before, in 22 the first time I laid eyes on it. And I’ve said this to you. I mean, this is not anything new. My thought instantly was, there will be a course correction here. They’ll find a happy medium at that point. Keep in mind the lease had not been officially signed. So my thought at that point was assuming there would be a lease, and there since has been one, of course, that when they did bigger, long term ballpark renovations, I thought that there would be a correction here, because you just looked at it and you said, this is massive. I mean, this is, you know, think of old Yankee Stadium, but pre 70s renovations, you think of Tiger Stadium in center field, like all the dude, if
Nestor Aparicio 02:47
you want to do anything in this city, there’s a board of this and a oversight of that, and government. I mean, I guess when they did that a couple years ago, was John’s, like, we’ll get more pitching, you know, like, I don’t know that there was a lot of pushback against whatever the idea was. And it hadn’t been John, right? I mean, John wanted to put his mark on everything without doing any work. But, or somebody came in and said, do it. But this is there. This was not 10 smart people and Janet, Marie Smith and architects looking at this. This was a whim. I mean, really,
Luke Jones 03:30
I disagree. I disagree. I I’m not sure John Angelus would have had the wherewithal to think in those terms, right? I think this was Mike Elias, sigma Adele, people in baseball ops looking at what had been known for years. Nestor left. Fiona, Camden, yards needed to change. It absolutely did. When you cover games on a nightly basis, as I’ve had the privilege to do for close to 15 years now. Will be 15 years this coming year when you see the number of what feel like routine fly balls, what look like routine fly balls off the bat of an Orioles player or a visiting player in the middle of summer, and you see it shoot out to left or to the ridiculous gap in left center. That absolutely was something that needed to change. 364, you’re talking about, yeah, I mean, just low wall, all of that. I had no problem whatsoever with the idea of making it more neutral, however, where they overshot this, and where you look at it and say, Wow, again, as I said to you the first time I laid eyes on it at the beginning of the 22 season, I just thought there’s no way it’s going to stay like this, right? I mean, there’s no way it can be this deep. You know, this was an over correction. You don’t want this place to be a band box, but suddenly you don’t want it to be a place where no right handed hitter wants to play here, you you went from one problem in terms of attracting starting pitch. Is with all things being equal, and I’m not. I’m not making a blanket excuse for the Orioles in terms of paying free agent pitchers. It for the right price. You could have gotten anyone to come here, but all things being equal. Enable went to Colorado, right? If you want to look at it, however, as a tie breaker and say all things being equal, yeah, a lot of pictures. Looked at left field in Camden Yards and said, Am I’m not eager to sign up for that. I definitely am not. So I never had a problem with it. But when you look at this and you say, now they’re over, you know that they’re correcting it. They’re finding a happy medium. Keep in mind the dimensions aren’t going back to the original dimensions. Let’s be very clear about that. Want to be fair, but you look at this and you make that change after just three seasons, it doesn’t look great from an esthetic standpoint. But for me, I guess my biggest gripe right now, and ultimately, we’re going to see how this plays out, and I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt. The Early indications are the club is paying for this as it pertains to what they’re doing for 2025 now, I would assume we’re going to see long term, a vision for whatever they’re going to do with that area, whether it’s to add seats back into it to make it look more like the original configuration in left field, in terms of wall and then fans immediately at that wall. Because right now, when you look and I’m sure you’ve seen the mock up of it as well. You’ve got this ugly gap now where you have a fence that is going to look more like it did before. However you you’re not going to have any seats, and you’re going to have this big gap now, and it’s going to look a little bit like what Comerica Park dealt with when that park opened. Keep in mind, that Park was much more cavernous, and they course corrected Citi Field with the Mets, they did the same thing, but that my pet peeve is, from a cosmetic standpoint, what are you going to do with that space if it’s just going to be empty for 2025 and you’re you’re telling me that the long term, you know, they make that into A party patio. They add seats back in. Maybe they put up on the big wall that will now not be the true wall for home runs. Maybe they put the numbers of their retired players there, as opposed to on the facing of the upper deck. Then I’ll hear that. But for 2025 for a ballpark that you market the heck out of in terms of being the ballpark that forever changed baseball, and being so beautiful and being a gem, left field looks ugly now. I mean, it’s going to look ugly. I mean, there are people who already didn’t like what this had looked like over the last few years compared to the original structure, the original configuration, the original
Nestor Aparicio 07:38
configuration had a crown gasoline sign on left field wall, sure,
Luke Jones 07:42
sure, but, but just in terms of the wall now, you are now going to have a shorter wall, and then the bigger wall that was created in 22 will still be there. For the time being. They’re putting the platform up for Mr. Splash and left center whatever on that. But it looks kind of ugly, so I like it from a baseball standpoint, in terms of making it more play, more neutral, because I do think this will probably be the happy medium that they should have probably just in hindsight, I think their biggest misstep, obviously was not changing the wall, but making it so drastic. If they had their original plan should have been, let’s, let’s move it back. We’re going to take away some seats, but let’s do this incrementally. Let’s do this and move it back, I don’t know, 10 feet rather than 30, or move it back 15 feet rather than 30, and then let’s see how that plays for a couple years, because we can always take away more seats. We can always move it back. The problem is, when you start wanting to go back and forth here now, what do you do? I mean, I under I understand that you can’t just easily add seats back in without looking at the structural integrity of left field and figuring that all out. So that’s why, to me, you shouldn’t have gone as drastic as you did all at once. Did Elias
Nestor Aparicio 09:04
take credit or blame for that? Was it really his idea? And that’s how the whole thing got done, and now absolutely his idea that they’re moving it back.
Luke Jones 09:12
I absolutely. I look, you know me. I have no affinity for John Angelos or defending him. I never once got the impression that that was a John Angelos initiative. I think that was a baseball ops initiative.
Nestor Aparicio 09:23
I thought that was a baseball ops initiative to say to John, will get pictures. I
Luke Jones 09:27
mean, I think that was, I think that was part of the sell job, sure, but I think there was absolute, I mean, Nestor, you know, how that part played for so long.
Nestor Aparicio 09:35
Oh, I’m not disputing so. I mean, I go back to when Messina bitch in the 90s and suck life. And, you know, they had to bring Scott Erickson a year to get ground balls. And, yeah, I get all that, and I will,
Luke Jones 09:47
and I’ll even say this part of me is a little disappointed, from the standpoint of, I do like parks that play differently, right? I like the idea that hitting a home run in Camden Yards, it becomes. Something that in left field had become extremely difficult. However, when you’re talking about someone like Ryan mountcastle, who has always been a pro about it, he absolutely loathed, hated the new left field at Camden Yards. I’m sure Coby Mayo felt the same way. I’m sure Austin Hayes, you know, felt the same way. How much of this might go into attracting a free agent outfielder like I don’t know. And this is a I’m gonna say it’s to your
Nestor Aparicio 10:27
point. Had they done this in 1997 to keep Messina around, Cal Ripken would have hated it, sure.
Luke Jones 10:34
And there’s always look there. I mean, there’s always going to be someone that doesn’t like it. Right pictures right now for the Orioles, don’t like the fact that the walls moving back in, even though it’s not moving back to pre 2022 dimensions. So, so you’re always going to have some of that So, and that’s why, even as a reporter covering the team on a daily basis, and I don’t say this is a knock on any any peers, but I kind of got got tired of seeing the Well, that would have been a home run in Camden Yards three years ago. It’s like but it’s like, but it’s not anymore. So like, what are we doing here? Because it plays that way for both sides. You know, home runs that you might lose. Lost a couple here too. Exactly, exactly. So, so that, so that part of the narrative I was, I was unmoved by, but just in a general sense, I kind of like the fact that it becomes something that was unique. But now, okay, your course correcting here. You’re finding a happy medium, as Mike Elias alluded to on Friday. But what are you going to do with that space? That’s the big question here. And all we know at the moment. And again, I assume this is a short term part, because, you know, it’s been put out there that the Orioles are paying for this in the short term, and we know that there’s 600 million available to them for the long term renovation. So so my gut tells me that what we’re going to see in 2025 is not going to be how that space looks permanently. And I don’t mean moving the dimensions again as far as the fence, but I mean that space behind it, you know, because now right down the line, it’s going to look the same. But, you know, as we know, it juts back and it’s like 373 and then, you know, it goes all the way around to the bullpen. That’s the area that’s going to get shorter. But what are you doing with that space in between, where you kind of look at it, I think it’s as you know, it’s being moved in in a range of eight to, I think, up to like 26 feet, or something like that, you know, depending on where you’re talking about, in left going out the left center. So what are you doing with that space? I mean, long term, is there an idea that maybe you move the bullpens and the patio or the left center bullpens now becomes some kind of party space, as you know, Nestor, we’ve had conversations with plenty of people talking about stadia, and the future of stadiums and social areas are a big part of that, right? Well,
Nestor Aparicio 12:52
you know, the original one in left field was the old Comiskey Park bullpen. There was a bullpen, you know, underneath left field there’s only people drinking behind Greg lazinski, you know back in the day, and you know, whatever, whomever Katie Griggs hires, whether it’s the canopy people here locally, or whomever, will have some updated version of the space that’s not going to feel like 1989 and this conversation we’ve had about the wall and back and forth and all that. It’ll go on and on. But hey, I just found it to be interesting. It’s a Friday news dump thing in November. Like, get out in front of it. Why are you hiding from anything yet? 10,000 MPC is your playoff game. You mean, like, literally. Why are you hiding from what are you ashamed of it, you know, like, get out in front of it and sell it. Sell sell it like you sold it before. You and I have had a longer conversation than the press conference was right like. So we’re interested enough to talk about, in a week, when we could be sitting here killing the ravens and crushing Justin Tucker and talking about firing horrible and what’s going wrong with the right we get, you know, but we like baseball, and we like talking about the finer points and all of that, they need to get out and and not do Friday news hides in Joseph, can I ask you a question? You’re so freaking serious in season, so I want you to pretend that you’re John Harbaugh out of season before he lied to me all off season, threw me out and then, and then sent me prayers. No sense of humor about this, just, I’m being honest, I don’t know the answer to this. How did the splash thing start? The Mr. Splash thing start, and the sprinkler thing that they right. Every team has a little they grab their due dads, they have a hitch, they grab their they do something. When they get a single, a double, can you I mean, I’m not. I’m literally, I’m not. Nobody’s ever explained this to me. It’s almost like, yeah, carry Michael capetto and going, Kay Fabe, like, I’m not being K fave. I see the guy in the splash, in the tutu and the and I like my wife, and I like, I’m i. Feel like I’m in the soap opera, but it came in late. Nobody’s explaining what the hell happened? Because I really don’t know. Yeah, I
Luke Jones 15:05
mean, home run celebrations have become more of a thing in dugout. So in recent years, we’ve seen the same thing in football Miami. What was it? Probably 567, years ago. At this point, the turnover chain, right? The Orioles in what was it? I guess it was 22 is when they had a home run chain. And you can still buy pies
Nestor Aparicio 15:26
after the game. You’re talking about a home run celebration, yeah, sunflower seeds, or like that, right? Or some
Luke Jones 15:33
kind. I mean, you look, and if you pay attention and you watch enough baseball, that’s not just the Orioles, you’ll see all team just about every team has something. Some of it’s more clever than others. A lot of it’s campy. A lot of it’s lame. I mean, for lack of a better you know what?
Nestor Aparicio 15:48
It’s exactly. What you just explained is exactly what end zone celebrations have become for me, which is just sort of like, get through the Aussie news and give the ball up. But
Luke Jones 15:59
not everyone’s like that, right? So, but even then, to your point, the Derrick Henry or the Barry Sanders that has become a celebration in and of itself, because that’s become the rarity, right? So, so when someone doesn’t do something that has its own brand now as well. So look, I mean, it’s a generational thing. I’m fine with it. I don’t have any problem with it. But in 23 remember, that’s when they started the home run, the home run, the ball, the Dong Bong, whatever you you know, I still remember being there the night that Kyle Gibson, who, you know is good man, probably not someone who wanted to have Bong, you know, you know the connotations of a beer Bong or a beer funnel associated with it. So he kind of said, Okay, it’s not the Dong Bong, but everyone knew it was, that’s what it was. It’s fine, right? But they used water, obviously, and, and they kind of, you know, they this whole water themed element kind of sprang from it, right? I mean, they do the sprinkler and all the different things that, you know, when someone has a single they turn on the faucet, double. All that, right? And obviously you hit a home run. You come and take a drink. And obviously it evolved a little bit this year. But the Mr. Splash thing just evolved from that. I never heard the specifics of like, was
Nestor Aparicio 17:14
this TJ Brightman or Greg Bader coming like? I’m trying to get how into like, this human whoever the guy in the series. He signs autographs. He drinks caught, drinks bad coffee, by the way. But like, I, I’ve seen this thing happen, yeah, and I don’t know that I’ve even gone to the hit my head on the Baltimore banners pay wall to even, like, have it explained to me that it wasn’t some completely like Dan, Fan Fan man. Dan, the camera guy, caught him. He took his shirt off. He’s a celebrity now. Captain Defense started in my section with my D. He became Captain Defense because he had a defense sign that I gave him, that I printed. That’s how he became Captain Defense. So I don’t know the origin story of the splash guy, or what his name is, or what his day job is, or when he became an or like I thought maybe he was a fan who did it, who took it to the team and said, I’ll stand out there and put a 221, and splash like i It’s the goofiest thing, because it doesn’t feel I don’t know the story. So it’s hard for me to sort of buy in above and beyond. Everybody’s getting wet out there, and Rubenstein’s been out there, and Joan Jett and rip I mean, I get all that, but they never, ever explain that. This was Greg baders, great idea, or TJ, like, I just doesn’t, I’m a storyteller. I’m just trying to, like, connect the dots on Wild Bill. I know the Wild Bill story, he sat up there. He was cab driver. He started spelling things with his beer buddies. More people game. I was one of them. I can tell you the story 40 years later.
Luke Jones 18:49
I don’t know the splash guy story, I really don’t. Yeah, and look, I mean the player celebration, that’s the organic part. And then they latched onto that. I mean, I Okay. I think it’s fine. I I’ve had friends, you know, personal friends, sit in this in the splash section, and it’s fun. And look, is that? Is it as organic as Wild Bill in Section 34 at Memorial Stadium? No, but what is in this day
Nestor Aparicio 19:12
and age? Yeah, this guy is stand now there is part of the brought it off. If they, if they flashed in right field. They moved left field. I probably wouldn’t even, but I wrote down, I’m like, splash spring, yeah, there’s a platform. Yeah, you, I mean, and again, you and I don’t talk about this on july 23 because CNL Perez going last night, yeah. I mean, exactly you, yeah, we got games going. You get off my load, exactly. So I’m trying to, like, get a little levity here. Not even levity. I mean, I’m just so you don’t even know. And I don’t know. I really don’t know, and I don’t know. We know a lot, but we don’t know that, which I know that they’ve done a really lousy job of telling that story or making up, like, when you go into Ocean City, into Jonah and the whale, it’s just the plate. But they have a story up there about the whale, you know, and they. Make you sort of buy in a little bit like the Renaissance Festival. So I,
Luke Jones 20:03
I don’t know. I mean, I hear you. I don’t think it’s that deep,
Nestor Aparicio 20:09
you know. I know they sell the hell out of it. So, yeah, but I,
Luke Jones 20:13
I guess my point is, you know, I think there’s something to be said that it’s kind of funny, that there’s no, you know that Mr. Splash, is it someone that’s, like, known, like, other than, like, his, his closest friends, I guess, as far as being really not, and I’m sure, sure there,
Nestor Aparicio 20:29
there’s probably, I’m sure the guy’s name’s Bob or something, I don’t know. Yeah, I mean, the story doesn’t, it doesn’t make any sense to me. And I’m an oral fan for 50 years. I’m just good make it make sense to me. That’s all. And, yeah, I mean, making sense is we go out, we get wet, and it’s fun, okay?
Luke Jones 20:47
And I think that’s all it really is in the in the sense that, like, I don’t know anything about real fan Dan. I mean, I, I could friend request them on on Facebook, but, you know, I, and I don’t say this with any disrespect, I don’t really have any interest in knowing real fan? Dan, other than just like, hey, he’s at the games. He he could be your uncle, he could be your brother, it could be your dad. Like, it’s fine, he’s real fan. Dan, yeah, exactly. And, you know, I think the one thing with the splash zone that they’ve done that has been fun is incorporating, you know, putting Adam Jones out there on a special night, putting Ben McDonald out there, putting Cal Ripken, you know, we saw David Rubenstein out there. So
Nestor Aparicio 21:22
if that’s a great way to that’s a great explanation to Katie Griggs, if you’re explaining it to her, saying, What is this? What’s a chance to have the fan of the game? It’s a 12th fan. Yeah, it’s a fence and it’s Seattle. It’s the 12th man fan, right? Exactly. So, so
Luke Jones 21:36
again, I mean that part of it, I mean, I like that they’re not just completely scrapping it because they’re they’re changing the dimensions of left center field.
Nestor Aparicio 21:46
But it would have made a lot more sense if that person was wearing a Wild Bill hat. That’s all I’m saying. But fear not. Lucas. We’re talking about complete anything else that’s completely meaningless about the off season. You want to talk about real baseball, you want to get serious, put your serious hat on for a minute or no. I mean, we could put our series. I mean, I did that last week for 65 minutes, and I had Juan Soto coming here, and you’re like, we can’t afford him. Are you? You know? No,
Luke Jones 22:08
I never said that. I never said that. I’m being realistic though. I mean, and I’m being real realistic from the standpoint of, yeah, they can afford him. But then what? What’s so, what is the payroll moving forward. Because, no, that’s
Nestor Aparicio 22:21
what my question is,
Luke Jones 22:22
sure, sure. Well, they’re not going to broadcast that though, you know that we’re going to see it will this will become very evident to us by March just how serious they are in terms of augmenting their current roster, which, by the way, is still very good. Let’s not act like this is a team that’s, you know, they’re not a poverty franchise in terms of what the makeup of their current roster is. They need some they need that make some additions. There’s no question about that. But they’ve got a good base to go off of here, right? So, so let’s, you know, let’s put that, you know, we’ll make put that out there. But come March, we’re going to see what this looks like in terms of what they’ve done to fortify their pitching, in terms of adding a right handed bat, in terms of perhaps adding a couple veteran players who maybe have some postseason experience and maybe carry some clout in that way, not as dramatic as Frank Robinson joining the 1966 Orioles, but something in that family of thought, right, In that school of thought, in terms of, is there someone out there, even if he’s not going to be one of your two or three best players that could be brought in here, that you know has a reputation for being a good glue guy, has played in the World Series, has played in postseason, and has had some success even, and third guys like that out there. But you know, for me, and I’ve even seen this here recently, one thing that bothers me at this point when I see individuals, and I don’t, I don’t mean this as a shot at anyone, but when you hear people talk about how to fortify, how to augment, I still see people talking so much about trades, and I guess this is where I have a problem in terms of saying they’ve made some trades. They got Corbin burns, great. It didn’t work out in terms of everything around him, but he was exactly as advertised. It just stinks that they lost Kyle Bradish and they lost Grayson Rodriguez in the second half, and they lost Tyler wells and John means, never got healthy, and had to have Tommy John, sir. Well, really,
Nestor Aparicio 24:26
at the end of the day, they got eliminated because they didn’t hit the ball. Well, sure, sure, but, but, but everything,
Luke Jones 24:31
right? All of it comes to all of it goes together. And, you know, they had injuries, you know, offensively, as far as Jordan westburg And how much that hurt them, yeah,
Nestor Aparicio 24:38
but they paid for recording burns, even exactly so. So I’m not, I’m not
Luke Jones 24:43
sitting here trashing that trade by any stretch of the imagination. And I think I even pointed out to you, go look at Joey Ortiz. The second half of the season wasn’t great, really, wasn’t as much as like everyone was saying, hey, this guy’s gonna be an all star shortstop. His his second half was maybe not Adley rutschman bad, I was gonna say. Was better, wasn’t much better than than him in all truth. So, and I don’t say that to bash Joey Ortiz. He’s a legit major league player. Point is that trade I have no problem with. I guess where I have a problem is if we’re going to continue to try to convince ourselves that the only way the Orioles can get better is by trading more prospects. That’s where I look at this and say, look at the trade deadline. Yeah, that’s what you have to do, because you can’t go out and sign a premier free agent at the trade deadline, right? You have to trade for one now you can take on money, which they did with effin, but this is all about at this point for me, scanning the free agent market. I’m not saying you can’t make any trades, but I don’t want this to become that you have to continue to trade away from your farm system and trade away from your farm system and trade away from your farm system, and now that pipeline that you’ve been talking about, that you’ve sold in terms of how this team is going to be sustainably good for a really long time, and that absolutely is a big part of it. Ask the LA Dodgers, who have a 300 plus million dollar payroll, how important their farm system has been to them, winning championships and being in the playoffs year after year. I mean, the it’s a big part of what the Dodgers have done in addition to obviously going out and buying that was
Nestor Aparicio 26:10
always with the Yankees that 30 years ago, when cheater Rivera, those guys came through. They they got players, they kept their players. Maybe we have those players, maybe we don’t. But to your point, you’ve moved sideways, if you’ve given up five prospects to get two starters, when you can go out in the free agent market and buy starters. And I want to choose everybody else who’s a big boy does not John Angelos. It’s what serious Major League Baseball teams do. It’s what they do well. And
Luke Jones 26:39
I would say this, look. Take taking the Yankees, the Mets, the Dodgers, the Philly, the top the elite tier in terms of payroll. Just look at the next tier, right? The teams that rank five through 12, let’s say, and I’ve talked a lot about how the St Louis Cardinals, at different points, have been in that tier. And sometimes they they’re a little bit, you know, on the lower side certain years, and then they go back up that there’s, there are ebbs and flows to it in terms of, you know, what, what players you develop, who you want to keep, who you say goodbye to. I mean, the Cardinals, it was, what, 1415, years ago, at this point in time, that they said goodbye to Albert pools. They got a lot of criticism from a lot of people for that, it was really smart that they let him go Albert Paul’s. He had a couple
Nestor Aparicio 27:27
really good years with the Ravens. Played a game, you can go back and look it up, whatever year he walked, 4567, whatever year that was. The Ravens played in St Louis. Might have been five. The Ravens played a sort of a Chris Redmond kind of era game out there. And I have pictures on the streets of St Louis with people, keep Albert. They made signs like free the bird signs. They made defense signs. They did say, keep pull holes in St Louis. And that was the Adam. That was 2011 I’m sorry, my bad. Okay. I
Luke Jones 27:57
mean, look, it’s been a while all the all these years on around run together, but, but the point with I’m making there is, it’s both, right? It your farm system needs a matter. You can make trades and trade from that farm system, because, yes, there are sometimes unique talents that you say, I want to go get that guy, and I want to go get that guy, and I guess I would feel better about the Orioles doing that, if that comes with a contract extension, then so it’s not another case where you’re trading Joey Ortiz and DL Hall, who, again, I don’t think are going to be these guys that are transcendent major league players for the next 10 years. I mean, DL Hall had the same issue, and say in Milwaukee that he had in Baltimore, he couldn’t stay healthy this past year. I mean, that’s still the issue for DL Hall, so but the point is, if you’re going to trade from your farm system, I want to make sure that you are securing long term pieces, not just, oh, this is just a rental. Oh, this is just a rental. Because you deplete the farm system, your teams have been better, so you’re no longer drafting in the top five, and obviously the draft system and all that has changed anyway, but you don’t want to continue to have a drain of your farm system. And then you look at this thing, and you still have an increased payroll all that much, and you know, where are you as an organization? And then suddenly you see all your windows closing. So what do you like best
Nestor Aparicio 29:22
about this period piece that I shared here with anybody watching on our video? This is and you’re just listening on the radio. You have no idea. Luke started the laugh out loud because I found my picture. September 25 2011 gotta love baseball in St Louis. Keep Albert in St louis.com, and there’s a very pretty girl, you’re wearing a number five, and her boyfriend who’s got a hat that looks like it’s right out of the Lou Brock era, the stammal era, in your favorite place there. I even got the Gateway Arch in there for you, the famed Gateway Arch. So look, mistakes are made all the time. You know what I’m saying. We had Chris Davis. I was a. Going
Luke Jones 30:00
to say, I mean, sometimes the mistake is signing the player. Sometimes, of course, the mistake is letting them go. In the case
Nestor Aparicio 30:07
of letting Machado go was a mistake. I think not getting more for him was the mistake there. The mistake not going to be and you have to go one way or the other, maximize the value, is what I
Luke Jones 30:15
mean, let’s face it, in hindsight, and I don’t even think this is hindsight, because I feel like we were talking about this the off season before, or even two off seasons before. I think we all recognized for the Orioles where things were heading. 2014 felt like their last best chance, right, not to say they weren’t, and they made the playoffs in 2016 when Zach Britton was left in the bullpen and Toronto walks it off against at that point in time, that was really if this had been a functional, normal organization with good ownership and a general manager and a manager who were aligned, which we know Dan Duquette and Bucha Walter, as much as They made it work for a few years. Towards the end, it was not as Kumbaya. I think that’s, you know, that’s obvious, you know. And I’m not even blaming one or the other. I think there were, you know, they just were different. You know, they were different. We know that the hierarchy was weird because Dan duquet hired after Bucha Walter was hired, right? I mean, Buck came in in 2010 and Duquette came in post 2011 when McPhail left. So but post 2016 was when those difficult conversations needed to start in terms of, okay, where are you going with Manny Machado? Where are you going with payroll? Where are you going with this team? Well, you’d like
Nestor Aparicio 31:36
to think that those, those conversations are being had right now by Kate that that they these are serious people five or seven year plan to say, Where are we going to be? And part of this, you know, I put the St Louis stuff up, Luke, and it’s off season, and I’ve got to be the prick in the room again, and just say, you know, in St Louis, they have businesses that have supported sky boxes. They have fans that come from everywhere, that have supported it for a generation, and have Cardinals ads and grandmoms and granddads. And there’d be three days a year your your mom and your sister would bring the kids. And like all of that, I’ve seen all that. St Louis sustainable. Sure, they they lost their football team. I don’t know if you heard or not, but they have a hockey team. Very vibrant soccer scene there. Amongst other things, there’s a million things. There’s colleges there, there’s things to do. But I don’t know where Katie Griggs was sold on this job, that there are 1.2 million citizens in the city is such suffering atrophy, and it’s down to 450,000 residents, and they’re 28% Hispanic and 74% African American. And and these people have left. And these, I don’t know what all of their Bucha studies are in regard to what they think the market is, what the market would bear, what the the economists would tell you the money is. And like all of that, I’ve sat with Dick Cass for 25 years before he lied to me, out about no fortune, 500 companies here and all of that. I really would like to see some and I’ll say projection, because that’s the word they would use in a budget projections, all of the fancy words that I use here as a CEO, that I have to deal with, with banks and loans and people and partners and all of that stuff. But what they really think the ceiling is for this, what the cost is going to be for that in whatever the stadium, new things going to be, where the benefits are with gambling, selling drinks, parking, how much they think some Joe and Middle River is going to pay? Or, you know, your brother, your sister coming down from Pennsylvania, or somebody coming in, how much is a ticket? How much is a skybox who’s buying it? Who are the targets to buy these sweets back at? What price? How much are we going to charge wise markets and Zip Dry cleanings and royal farms? How much more can we get from them? Or can we get any more? And how much to push royal farms out and bring Wawa in and like that. They’re figuring all of that out. Great, you go figure that out. Katie, you’re smarter than me. You know more than about Baltimore than I do. You would never want to hang out with anybody that sold sports here for 40 years successfully so far. What’s What’s the ceiling? What, what, what, how much are they going to make? How are they going to make it? Where’s the TV revenue coming from? What really happens to mass and you know, Peter’s gone, John’s gone. They’re all Rob. Manfred still here. Rob. What’s really going to happen with what’s really What are you telling David Rubenstein, I just put 1,000,000,008 up with his buddies and Sharpies to tell them the pipeline for revenue for media and streaming and what we used to call television and rights fees and all of that. Where is all that? Where’s Bal 98 rock fit into this? Where’s your online where’s the revenue? Where is it coming from? Where are the fans? How much will the market bear? And then. 10, then you got a number. How much is national revenue? How much are we getting for the the branding and the T shirts and the $300 jerseys I saw for Adley rutschman up on the team store in New York City last week? And then how much we’re going to put in payroll? How much money do we need to make? What’s our exit strategy? Because these guys didn’t buy this at 1,000,000,008 not finding an exit strategy. That’s 10 years from now, at 4.2 billion, with projections about the casino they’re going to add in the upper day. I mean, these are sharp people. I think maybe they’re morons, may I don’t know. I maybe just a rich guy that bought the team. It certainly I met him last week. Possible, I don’t know. Maybe portrays some ignorance that He clearly doesn’t have as a billionaire, but at some point, no matter what business you’re in, Luke, even if you hate the media, me love the media, you give you free hot dogs or not, or whatever they do, you have to answer to the stakeholders. You have to answer to the customers. McDonald’s tells people what’s going to be on their Happy Meal menu next year. You know, like every bit royal farms calls me every 60 days, and we change out chicken ads for the next thing they’re going to sell for coffee this time of year and free coffee on the app, which is a great idea if you have the ROFO app, by the way. Um, I know they’re new, but as this thing evolves and they build civic trust with stakeholders, we start to vibe out whether they’re the Cardinals and we should be bought in the way every Cardinals fan has been bought in, or whether this is some pigsty like the Miami Marlins have been, or whether this is Just a grab bag for an old guy to have a little bit of fun and flip it off to his partners five years now, because they win and how they’re going to win, and they could win this year without doing much. They get a little pitching. They can win. They’re good enough to win. But how serious is this operation in regard to what the citizens have put in and where it’s supposed to be 10 years now, even if Mr. Rubenstein is not a part of that at 84 and Mr. Eric Getty is or whomever it is, I just this is the beginning of them. I literally just got my new credit card in the mail. Literally, I just got my new literally, this is their chance to get my W N, S T corporate credit card with a $2,500 an annual honorarium that I used to give to the business of Chad Steele, actually $3,800 need to give the Chad Steele so I have $3,800 a year. I don’t give to the Ravens anymore. I have a credit card here. I love my last names, Aparicio. Do you know my cousin’s the only Venezuelan in the Hall of Fame. I don’t know that I knew that before eight weeks ago, like, I had to google that. I’m like, oh, conception is not in they haven’t put cap. I’m thinking like, like, so I love baseball, and I have a credit card literally right here, and they should be trying to get it. Not hide the wall on Friday, not hide from me at parties or where, or any you know, literally anyone you know, in in my way of thinking about this, I don’t
38:12
I,
Nestor Aparicio 38:14
well, I don’t Know. I’m done. My spiel is over.
Luke Jones 38:19
You done. We’re gonna see I mean, we’re gonna find out. I mean, look, so everything you’re mentioning, I I’m not sitting here disagreeing with you at the same time. I’m not sure how many franchises across the country are broadcasting these types of things, either, right? I mean, these are things that go on behind the scenes, and it’s, it’s going to become pretty apparent pretty quickly, right which way this is going, or you
Nestor Aparicio 38:47
have nothing else to judge them on. I’m not going to question. I can only exactly, and their first match is a Friday afternoon news dump to move the wall back in. I
Luke Jones 38:57
mean, how many teams are, I mean, but where, how do you want them? How should they have done that point? See, see, I disagree, from the standpoint of, Michael is came on and did a zoom and took questions on it, hiding it would have been putting it out at, I think the Zoom was at three o’clock on Friday. And okay, I get it. It’s Friday, although you and I both know the Friday News dump doesn’t really exist any, at least to the degree that it used to, right? Because the internet and social media, there’s never a time where that stuff goes away in the way. J Fave part of this for anybody listening is,
Nestor Aparicio 39:33
if you want to hide from it, do it Friday.
Luke Jones 39:36
I hear you.
Nestor Aparicio 39:36
I go, why? You know, they shouldn’t be hiding from anything with 10,000 empty seats? Yeah, they should be selling everything.
Luke Jones 39:43
They’re doing, not selling the wall, though, because you’re not adding new seats into it. The only way that would have
Nestor Aparicio 39:49
made sense is the news item, dude, that’s all. I’m thinking like a PR. I’m thinking like Vince, but you’re criticizing it. And I just asked you how they I’m not criticizing anything other than. Then their off seasons, sure of 30 years of complete insignificance, of they don’t sell anything, they don’t try to sell anything. I understand
Luke Jones 40:11
when you hear it, oh, you said you don’t know how they should have done it differently. So then, so then, why are we using this as an don’t
Nestor Aparicio 40:18
do it Friday at three o’clock is what I’d say. Okay, that’s all. So it was Tuesday or Tuesday at 10am
Luke Jones 40:25
I mean, again, I agree with you. Made
Nestor Aparicio 40:28
so many thing that you serve some lunch, and we all come down and we actually talk about, I don’t want to go down in the city talking about it a
Luke Jones 40:35
lot. I don’t want to go down there to cover the wall being moved back. I got one man, all right, man, I covered, I cover the team and I cover,
Nestor Aparicio 40:44
just already done a half an hour on the wall? No, but I’m just saying, you know, we
Luke Jones 40:48
can do it. We can do it over a zoom. Now, what, where, where? I will agree with you. For example, when they traded for Corbin burns and all they did was a zoom. That is when bring him down to Camden Yards. I don’t I don’t care if he’s balking, because it’s five days before the start of spring training. Give him a bonus. Give him every single gift certificate to every place in the city he might want to eat. Do everything you have to do to bring him to Camden Yards. Do a press conference, do a photo shoot with him wearing an Orioles cap, in Jersey, standing on the mound at Camden Yards, even if the even if the field is being seated, or something like, what, whatever. That was an example where I agree with you wholeheartedly, the dimensions changing. That’s sufficient for
Nestor Aparicio 41:37
Okay, well, let’s see when they sign another Corbin burn. Say, I listen, I just tell it, I agree. I’ve been so busy with the with the music crap I’m doing this week in the holidays and my family and a sales cycle and crab cake tours, like all of that, I have not inked my Katie Griggs letter. I wrote a letter to David Rubenstein, which was about my access and about being on the up and up, not being full of bullsh, the way the way the other guy was right. So now I’ve met David Rubenstein, and it is what it is, right, right. At some point, Katie Griggs is out selling this every day, and people came up to me last week at a connects event where there were 300 people, my friend Jason Pappas gave a speech about CEOs and stuff like that. But I saw people out there, and they all saw me, and they come up to me, and they won’t talk baseball with me. And, you know, off season, we spend the money like, what should we do? They don’t, they defense, whatever. They don’t talk about that kind of stuff. They will talk about the team and and they inevitably ask me about my press credential. Every one of them asked me about it, and I said, you know, this is exactly the room Katie Griggs should be in, where there’s 300 people. I know 90 of them because I’ve been doing this forever. There’s black people, white people, old people, young people, people in all sorts of weird sectors, of cleaning businesses and cyber businesses, local businesses and crab cake delivers. Steve Pappas was there for Baptist. Justin Wendell, so like, there’s just this cross section of people. She didn’t know anybody in Baltimore. And I’m thinking to myself, should be going in the rooms where, if you’re serious about running this thing, to knowing people, to making it feel like you’re like a community member, and not like that. I’m an ATM with my credit card standing by because I know baseball and you sign a picture. I it just used to be much more of a community thing, Luke. I just, and I know you don’t expect that, and I kind of, now that I’m holding my credit card, I’m going to demand that so and if they’re not going to give that back, then don’t talk about being the community organization that you want to be. If you’re not going to front face with a real plan, you got new owners do something. Call a real press conference. Wash Sean Angelo’s out, have Katie Griggs sit there. Invite everybody, invite fans, invite people and ask questions and show us what the new thing’s going to be beyond giving out hats squirting and showing up at events and speaking and leaving and having an off season where there’s no juice here. Tell me you’re gonna have spring training. Him. Tell me you’re doing just get in front of me. Have a Winter Carnival open the club level on a Tuesday night December. Make tickets half price if you come down and we’re gonna get free Ho Hos and ding dings and Santa’s lap and free cocoa. Yeah. I mean, like, I don’t again. These were all things that were 30 years ago. They did forever, the expectation level and the Stockholm syndrome of everyone you included with no hey, people to me and they say to me, who are we signing? You know, but they said we can’t sign one Soto that you
Luke Jones 44:40
don’t like people attacking your integrity, and you’re saying that, Oh no, no, no, no. It’s not integrity. Just you just suggested I’m an apologist for the team I’m suggesting because I’ve lowered your bar, because you’re gonna have a $300 million payroll Nestor that’s not lowering the bar, that’s living in reality,
Nestor Aparicio 44:57
that one player, any player. Any player.
Luke Jones 45:01
I didn’t say that.
Nestor Aparicio 45:03
I’m telling you, from a reality
Luke Jones 45:05
based standpoint, that they’re not going to have a $300 million payroll. That’s not being an apologist for the team. That’s right.
Nestor Aparicio 45:15
We’re not getting this guy. We’re not getting that guy. That’s 30 years, honest to God, that’s 30 years of Stockholm Syndrome. We can’t because I lived through Jimmy key, Roberto Almar, where they had money. And you’re talking out of both sides of your mouth. You’re talking about how they can’t even get people to come here for playoff games. And then you’re saying they should sign. Want that? Well, yeah, exactly that. That is not conundrum. I just really use their conundrum, though, that’s Major League Baseball conundrum, though, Luke, really, I mean, we’re being K Fave if we don’t bring that up, that we don’t discuss anything like this with football, as to the best five guys, we can’t get that. We’re only five teams can get those guys and that philosophy and I and certainly on a personal level, you do realize that the NFL has a system where the top five free agents never hit the market because they have the franchise tag, and quarterbacks stay with their own team because they’re tagged because teams like the pirates don’t pocket all their money. No but, but my point. You know the Bengals have tried like hell, so I’ll throw that out as well. But football, there
Luke Jones 46:22
is, there are, there are, there’s a system put in place that the absolute best of the best players never hit the market because they they’re tagged.
Nestor Aparicio 46:35
We’re just in a different place. If you’re telling me we can’t have the good things, we can’t get, the best things. That’s, right? You’re
Luke Jones 46:43
an apologist. That’s that.
Nestor Aparicio 46:45
That’s your word for it. You think that’s being a realist, right? I mean, that’s the you would call that a realist. I’m not calling I’m trying
Luke Jones 46:53
to be an analyst here. I’m trying to be an analyst here. I’m trying to look at all the information that we have. Okay? I don’t think it’s realistic to even talk about the Orioles signing Juan Soto do. I think they could. Yes, absolutely they could. Part of what I’m also doing here is looking at who their general manager is, who their baseball operations department is, how they have operated, how I expect them to operate, and I don’t think they’re going to view it through the lens of thinking that is probably going to be the best way for them to exhaust all of their resources of what they’re projecting their payroll to be over the long run, and pumping that into one player making that much money. Now that said, that does not mean that I’m saying that they should be like the Oakland A’s or the Tampa Bay Rays, or that they should have a payroll that is going to be bottom five or bottom 10 in baseball,
Nestor Aparicio 47:44
Gunner Henderson, if he’s gunner Henderson, that they would have the $51 million a year in 2028 that they will absolutely make that happen even. And there’s no way you can promise on any of this, right? I
Luke Jones 47:59
mean, I can’t promise, but to
Nestor Aparicio 48:01
me, they already know. Are they? They should already know whether they’re going to operate like you think they’re going to operate, which is the why feed them steak when they’ll eat hamburger, and that’s the way it’s always been. And that will be a divide between you and me. And if you think it’s personal, it’s not, it’s not you being an apology. I know we’re in your bar like just for 30 years on the baseball thing here, and I think that you shouldn’t think that way. When billionaires come in here and think like billionaires and think they want to win and meet be Mr. Big pants, that it wouldn’t be a big stretch for Mr. Araghty and Mr. Rubenstein, who sat in front of me and bragged about all the money he has to say, we’re going to operate 100 million upside down the first five years here. That’s 500 million. It’s a half a billion. We bought the thing at a depressed level. We got 600 million in civic funding. We’re not going to be the 100 and $4 million payroll team. We’re going to be the two $30 million payroll team for five years, even if the seats are empty because we’re wealthy and we want to win, and we don’t need to, we don’t need to operate this Rubenstein said in front of me, right in front of a whole synagogue last week, a he doesn’t know anything about baseball. I’m not being mean. I sat there. It’s one of the reasons they’re gonna kill any of owners don’t, though plenty of owners don’t know about football. All he knows is what he’s told, right? And then he parrots what he knows. This is a guy that I know a lot more about baseball than David Rubenstein, like that. Just flat out, I sit in a room, I’ll tell you, I’ve been doing this 40 years. I know so that being said, he said he parroted out there, and he says a lot of things very matter of factly in his delivery. And I pay attention to all of it, because I’m never going to speak to him, probably again, or if I do, it’s not going to be in a getting a real answer. He said, In our industry, you know, we tend to, you know, spend what. Make, okay? You know, like, if that’s it, then you are absolutely right. You’re right to be mad at me and angry at me for expecting more, or for calling you an apologist when you’re really being a realist. You’re not apologizing because he’s not apologizing. We only made 125 million. We spent 125 million. That’s what we made. I met so we, you know, like, it’ll be the bud ceiling thing we’re coming into this. It’s we have plenty of money, money’s not a problem, like all of that. Or we’re gonna operate bone on bone, or dollar on dollar. And you see those empty seats out there? That’s where gunner Henderson went. He went with those empty seats because we couldn’t afford him, because we can’t afford nice things, and if we grow our own Juan Soto tough poop skis, he’s going to go somewhere else, because gunner Henderson may be better than Juan Soto by the time he hits. I mean literally. And once the Dodgers get involved and Mr. Big pants says, Well, I’m 78 now, and we were in a championship game the other year. We did okay, and I’m going to flip the team anyway. And there’s still 10,000 seats in the upper deck, because Katie can figure how to price it right, because $10 to get in wasn’t enough. I mean, they need more fans. They need more money. I’ll keep saying that. In order to affect even gunner Henderson, they need more fans, more money than where they are. From a revenue standpoint, it from a potentiality of their revenue. But I hate that. Going into this already, we’ve lowered the bar to say, well, Connor got to be too much money. We we’d have to let him go, um, because his agent’s a bad guy. And we already know all that. You know. We already know where this usually goes with Boris, to the to the length the 11th hour, and by then it’ll be $800 million and who knows who’s running it, or what the success would be. But I just worry about coming into this. They’re brand new. They haven’t taken any questions from you yet, or me or anybody else about lowering the bar as to well, we’re not going to be top shelf ever around here. That that would sadden me, with the government given 600 million and like all that, it could be. I don’t expect it to be the Yankees, but I expect it to at least be the Cardinals, at least, at least in my mind. And this
Luke Jones 52:07
is where I took issue with you accusing me of having Stockholm Syndrome, because I’ve been saying that for three years now. I’ve been saying that before David Rubenstein bought the team, before we even heard of David Rubenstein in baseball ownership space, I’ve been saying that a vision for a long time should be the st Louis Cardinals, different market. I’m not saying it’s exactly the same, but St Louis and its footprint in that region is hardly the Yankees or the Dodgers. It’s not LA or Philadelphia or New York. I mean, we know it’s not a media monster, but there’s a potential there, and I think again, running it well. And you know, you mentioned lowering the bar. The bar has been low, right? The bar has been at the bottom floor. So for me, I guess for me, is my focus isn’t on, go sign Juan Soto right now and put it on in the penthouse immediately. But there are a lot of levels in between building, from where you are right now to maybe not being in the discussion at some point. And look gunner Henderson, if you resign him and but it’s not until five years from now, he might be getting the same kind of contract that Juan Soto is going to get this off season. So I guess for me, it’s just looking at the full range of outcomes here between it not really changing a whole lot, from how it’s been or even when it’s been good for the Select seasons over the last 30 years to what you’re envisioning it becoming. And I guess for me, I don’t view one Soto through the lens of the end all be all. There are 25 different paths that the Orioles could take this off season that involves spending money and getting better players and augmenting and improving your roster, and not just depleting your farm system and making trades, because that’s the cheapest way to get a player. Although I’m not opposed to making trades, of course. So I guess for me, I’m just looking at it, I guess from a wider range of outcomes, where I’m not fixated as much on that idea, but yeah, in a vacuum,
Nestor Aparicio 54:01
could they go sign Juan Soto? Yeah,
Luke Jones 54:03
of course they could. I’m just telling you from what my expectations are, which include what knowledge I do have of Mike Elias and how the baseball ops have worked, and what I how I expect them to continue work. Well, they’ve
Nestor Aparicio 54:16
had to work that way. My point, they’ve been under the constraints are running a true right or small market, poorly run in every way, from a revenue standpoint, you know, underperforming by any stretch of any imagination, and underperforming financially, spiritually all the way through. How does that change. I think there’s, there’s got to be something going on here this off season that feels drastically different than the way it used to be Friday news dumps and we’re moving the fence is what I’ve got to work with right now. And I’m working with it and your expectations that they’re not going to sign burns. I don’t want them to sign. I don’t want the Stockholm Syndrome is you don’t want them to spend their money, no, like you think that there’s such a limited amount of it that you’re living on the small budget mine guy thing, and I’m living on that these guys are billionaires there. If they’re going to operate it bone on bone, with 10,000 empty seats in the outfield, then this thing is, I would say it’s going to be a disaster. It’s just never going to be great. Never going to be great. You
Luke Jones 55:23
know what I mean? Agree, agreed. I I agree on that. My just to clarify on the burns thing, because I don’t want people listening just saying I don’t like Corbin burns. My idea on Corbin Burns is, and here, here’s an example of where I’ll push back on. You know what you said a few minutes ago? That set me off. If you’re going to sign Corbin burns, give them a four year deal and blow the blow the offer out of the water in terms of average annual value. Let me pay a premium for his prime years, and then Scott Boris and Corbin burns can brag to everyone that he’s the highest paid pitcher in baseball in terms of AAV, right, rather than an eight year deal, knowing that four of those years are going to be a lousy value, I’d rather just say, Hey, you want $50 million a year. I’ll give I’ll give you 50, but we’re going to do a three year deal, or a four year deal, you know, in those terms. And Burns is just an example. I said the same thing years ago about not for the Orioles to do it, necessarily, because by that point, they were already heading towards the rebuild, because they had crashed and burned. But that’s what I had always said about Manny Machado, or, you know, some of these guys that get these deals where it’s this long term deal that has the opt outs. I’d much rather just lean right into that and say, Hey, I’m going to give you a, you know what, ton of money, but it’s only going to be for a shorter term period of time, but it’s going to be so much more in terms of average annual
Nestor Aparicio 56:47
you set the market, you piss off the other owners too, like you got that going on, you know, all day long, too. So, I mean, should
Luke Jones 56:55
I care about that? I mean, you’re, you’re the one talking about, I shouldn’t care about trying to save money. Why should I care about ticking off the other owners. Then, you know what I mean, like through that lens, I mean, hey, I’ll say this much.
Nestor Aparicio 57:05
That’s a big part of being new in the club. Mr. Rubenstein, I’m trusting in that club. Well,
Luke Jones 57:09
but, but you’re, you’re, you’re going, you know, you’re, you’re taking a shot at me because I’m lowering the bar. But that’s lowering the bar just as much. Then, like, you know, be a trendsetter. Then let, let’s face it, the Cleveland Browns for as much as they’ve gotten crushed, and that deal with Deshaun Watson has been a disaster, an absolute disaster, and the fact that he’s a you know what, off the field makes it even worse. But from a football standpoint, it’s been an utter disaster. That deal. If Deshaun Watson was one of the best five players in the league right now, and the Browns were a Super Bowl contender. You would, you would start seeing more players, more quarterbacks, getting fully guaranteed contracts. It, it failed spectacularly, and now the owner is going to be dug in even more than you know, more than ever in terms of that. But the point is, they did. They set a trend, not saying it was a smart one, obviously, but they did that. So I hear what you’re saying, look,
Nestor Aparicio 58:07
and I hear what you’re saying that I’m being unrealistic and that I’m being too rough on you. When Mr. Rubenstein sat in front of me and said, Well, the way we do it in the industry is, whatever we make, we spend, that’s what we tend to do, that that’s what he said. So we tend to do. And I’m thinking to myself, my question mark, Peter got over his skis 20 years ago, spending 25 million more a year on David Sagi and CO nine. And literally, Peter went into hock, literally trying to chase baseball players, right? Look, I don’t think Mr. Rubenstein is going to do that like COVID up in New York going crazy with money and whatnot. I’m just saying, if you’re 74 years old, and you’re in this, and you’re serious about this, and you have all this money coming into the stadium and stuff, this is the time to go out over your skis financially now, not later, you know, while you have gunner Henderson and rutschman and these guys, this is the time to say, let’s get a little speculative here. We’ll have enough money for rushman later on, and Henderson later on, when the time comes, because we’re going to win championships around here. I don’t know that this guy has that thirst. I think this guy bought a toy. I don’t think he’s George Steinbrenner. I don’t think he’s all that involved in this. I don’t think he thinks about it all day. I don’t think literally, I don’t think he’s going to be that involved in it. That when they come to him and say, give me $400 million for this, or $500 million for that. I’m with you. I don’t think it’s going to happen. Yeah, and I think they have Stockholm syndrome to everyone here to make it okay. We’ll never talk about it, because it won’t happen. This will be the only argument we ever have about it, because they will set their bar and their standard for what they’re willing to do, and they might look more like the Brewers than the Cardinals. You know, before it’s all over with you know what? I mean,
Luke Jones 59:42
I hear you again. I’ll just go, I’m what I’m pushing back on primarily, is one Soto is not the only path to winning the World Series. The Yankees had one Soto. They lost in five games to the Dodgers, right? I mean, the Padres had one Soto. They didn’t make it to the World Series. The nats did win a World Series with Soto, albeit he was what, 19 or 20 years old at that point in time, 21 whatever he was, it’s just look, I’m in full agreement. As far as raising the bar and raising the payroll and wanting to see this organization have a vision and wanting to see it grow and be better, I will say this, and
Nestor Aparicio 1:00:23
part of this is also, I don’t expect owners to lose 10s of millions of dollars every year, either. But we also know dirty secrets, they never lose, but, but Right? They never, they never lose already. Said that too. He’s already right. So that’s my point. Is, if you want 100 million cheap for five years for fun, just for fun, you get the money back out there. Nothing, right? And the whole thing would be worth more because you’d have one Soto on the bill, but you’d have the best players here. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I that that is, see,
Luke Jones 1:00:52
one thing I’ll say that, I think, and I mentioned, and, you know, we’ve gone way long here, and that’s fine, because we don’t talk too much baseball this time of year, which is part of the problem, to your point, I’m not going to disagree with that, but that’s also, we’re talking about all tonight’s game, dude, right? But that’s also, and the baseball offseason slower in general. I mean, the Dodgers, you know, the Dodgers might, they might sign one Soto, they haven’t done it yet, right? And, and so many of these free agents out there are waiting to see what happens with the biggest fish. I mean, that’s, that’s how this works in baseball. But I guess now I lost my train of thought, Great,
Nestor Aparicio 1:01:27
that’s all right, I’ve been at it a long time. I’ve just have a whole lot off season to think it through. You’ll text me later and be like I and another point is you’re, yeah, it’s, how dare you accuse me of Stockholm syndrome when I might have it? Well for watching, we’ve all been for me to think that they’re the Yankees. They’re the Red Sox. They’re the Dodgers we get we have. We’re farm system for them. Dude, this goes back to that no offense, dude, you weren’t even on the planet when Reggie Jackson and Don Baylor and Bobby rich and Doug descent season, Fred Lynn, all these guys were going other places, and my father’s trying to explain Charlie Finley to me. Man, you know what I mean? Like, I was 12 when they went on strike. Man, I’ve had this has been in my blood since birth, I imagine on the radio since I’ve been 15. So like, I’m into this, but I also I’m realistic. I met the guy. He doesn’t know anything about baseball, and he’s gonna do whatever they tell him to do that’s good, that he has a good
Luke Jones 1:02:21
general manager, then, yeah. I mean, right? You you run the if you have someone who knows about baseball, you run the risk of him being Jerry Jones. You run the risk of him being Peter Angelos in the late 90s, who thought he know knew a lot about baseball, right? So I’m okay with having an owner that doesn’t know a whole lot about baseball, unless they don’t have good people running it for them, and you know, that’s that’s ultimately, look, basically one
Nestor Aparicio 1:02:45
soda would be a mistake. I just think he’d be expensive.
Luke Jones 1:02:49
I never suggested he’d be a mistake either. I guess for me, a couple points, and the one point I was going to make here, one thing they need this is part of the problem, and part of what they need to do a better job of, and they they do this way better on social media than they had. I think that’s something they’ve done on us. And, you know, I’m not saying that’s the end all be all, but it’s something that they’ve done better the last couple years. I think people that have done that for them on some of their video point, they had a whole network for 20 years and couldn’t figure out what to do with right? But part of this is, you know, some of what I’m pushing back on here is, I hear everything you’re saying about Juan Soto. And look, Juan Soto is an unbelievable player. He’s known his way to the Hall of Fame assuming he has a long enough career to do it, you know, I mean, he’s that kind of guy. He’s
Nestor Aparicio 1:03:34
and you don’t have to give up guys on the farm to get him. Bob understood,
Luke Jones 1:03:39
they’re all there are also a lot of other really good players you could sign there that aren’t going to come going to cause are going to cost a 13 year commitment and and all that as well. But part of the issue here that they need to do a better job of is they already have their Juan Soto in gunner Henderson. And I don’t mean that in terms of you can’t sign another good player. What I mean is you have someone who already is a young superstar at age 23 that you should be marketing like a superstar at age 23 and so so you’re you’re talking about it through the lens of not just adding a really dynamic, amazing baseball player, but also using that player to sell to your fan base. My point is you already have gunner Henderson and Adley rutschman And guys to sell to your fan base. Start with doing a better job of selling them to your fan base. And then, yes, we can talk about augmenting and all of that as well. So so I think for that part of it, and the other, you know, my final point that I wanted to make, because I’ve brought this up, and you even brought it up part of what I you know, my assessment here, in trying to anticipate what this is going to look like and what the vision is going to be, is also keeping in mind where Mike Elias and where sigma Idell originated, St Louis. St Louis let Albert pool host walk now. Albert Paul host was much older than Juan Soto is at this point. So I don’t want to say it’s a. Apples to Apples, because it’s not but the point is, they looked at a decision that was wildly unpopular and maybe hurt them from a baseball standpoint for maybe a year or two at most, just looking at how Albert pull holes career arc played out in LA with
Nestor Aparicio 1:05:17
11. I want to see what they did in all those years, because that would be an interesting, you know, that’s an interesting. They
Luke Jones 1:05:24
were in the World Series. Soon thereafter, they lost to the Red Sox in 13 so but, but again, there’s a case, and it’s the same thing. It’s not just the moves you make. Sometimes it’s the moves that you don’t make, right? And I think, for an organization like the Orioles, who, yes, I expect more from and I do want them to raise the bar.
Nestor Aparicio 1:05:45
The next couple years, they lost the NLCS in 12 and seven games. They almost went to the World Series. They lost the World Series in 13. They lost the championship series in five games in 14. They they did okay. You know what I mean, like, so.
Luke Jones 1:06:00
So again, the point here is look, in a vacuum, yeah, they could go out and sign Juan Soto, and I look, if they, if we find out, and I’m sending out the wnst text, and we’re all shocked that the Orioles sign Juan Soto, I’ll happily come on here and say, Nestor. I was totally wrong. And I give you credit, because they’re thinking in terms of landing a big fish. My goodness, it doesn’t get bigger than that, short of sunny Otani last off season. I just don’t expect that to happen. That said, I don’t want them, and nor do I expect them, nor is it remotely acceptable for them to continue to operate as they have. You know, as they as Mike Elias was under Johnny well, then
Nestor Aparicio 1:06:38
there better before bags of donuts under the tree. There better be a starter, a reliever. They better actually get out in LA and bring the outfielder in and make Santander happy to have 14 players with nine positions. I mean literally, because they’re not signing gunner, I don’t think. And if that, if that’s the signing, that somehow, some way, they get an extension to give him enough money to keep him around, and that’s the apple of their eye, and that’s what they want to do. That’s cool, you know? I mean, that’s good, but I also know that they can’t guarantee him any more than you can guarantee me that Adley rutman is not going to be the biggest bus since EARL WILLIAMS, like I don’t know. I mean, by the way, let’s take a break. We’ll come back talk football. We’ll do we get all off season. You and I could do at least 3040, minutes just on rushman and on this, how uniquely, unbelievably, bizarrely weird all of this has been for 90 days at the end of the year, and how they have to pound sand in the off season where, you know, he’s not getting the extension, right. So, I mean, we would have been thinking that way a year ago. So they got, you know, they didn’t score any runs in the playoffs. They got uppity fans. They have empty seats. They have a new person who doesn’t know her way down Pratt street. They have an owner that’s sort of here with a lot of money, that I have a lot of expert, you know, my bar has been raised by the fact that he’s here. So, you know, I’m trying to get out of Stockholm and saying, Okay, I don’t have the Angelo syndrome, whatever you would call that, which is, everything you’ve pointed out, and everything that it is, what’s it going to be? And that’s my question. I’ll leave that for Katie Griggs, I’ll let you yell at me later. I’ll buy you Pizza, pizza. John’s make you feel better. That sounds good.
Luke Jones 1:08:18
That’s and look, it’s all love. I just the Stockholm you know,
1:08:21
I didn’t appreciate being lumped in with everyone else on that, because I think there are, there’s a lot of nuance even within that group that we had to lower our expectations. You saw who was running it right?
Nestor Aparicio 1:08:34
So now that’s shape. My expectation was to get a media pass back. That hasn’t changed. My expectation was, if they’re gonna move the wall back. I don’t mean a Friday zoom or whatever for your purposes. I’m sort of like it was sort of shameful, hiding from it. We made a mistake. We made a boom, we’re over correcting. You know, we’re admitting a mistake. We don’t make mistakes. They own your mistake. Own it out on Pratt Street. Let’s talk about it, because talking about it’s good. You want people talking about your baseball team not hiding it on a Friday afternoon, and that is part of the Stockholm syndrome of well, we’re a little ashamed of this, and we made a mistake, and it might associate us with Peter or the old you know, we all saw the old regime.
Luke Jones 1:09:13
You know what? I was just I know, I know. We want to wrap this up. They should have just not said anything. And then everyone show up on opening day and be like, wait a second, why is the wall moved in? That would actually been really funny.
Nestor Aparicio 1:09:25
I don’t know. You know, I’m kidding. You know what I want them to be, what they can’t be, which is transparent, out in front local, regular people, honest, accountable, you know, pick up the phone like, that’s what the Orioles were in my childhood. That’s what built the Orioles. It’s not what it’s been the last 30 years, the Ravens went through a long period where that’s what they were when they got here. We’ve argued logos and bees and and all of that stuff two weeks ago. Um, you know, I’m from a different era in that way. But there are 10,000 empty seats, and they. Got to get somebody back, and it might as well be me, and I’m holding my credit card. My last name’s Aparicio, and I’m wearing an orange Jersey in the middle of November when you would much rather be talking about is Justin Tucker gonna kick it straight? What’s happening to Lamar? Horrible, too. He’s Luke. I’m Nestor. We’re Baltimore positive. Stay with us. We’ll argue more in the next segment. I.
