As we gear up for the first of three fake football games without much to evaluate as a collective, Luke Jones and Nestor discuss what to look for on Friday night when the Philadelphia Eagles visit for NFL preseason action.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
year, ravens, win, play, burrow, quarterback, super bowl, offensive line, lamar, pittsburgh, joe, game, good, talked, chiefs, roster, regular season, john harbaugh, players, week
SPEAKERS
Nestor J. Aparicio, Luke Jones
Nestor J. Aparicio 00:02
Welcome home. We are W, N, S T, am 1570 Towson, Baltimore and Baltimore. Positive we are bringing a lot of good stuff out. This week. I got my my purple curio shirt on with my roquan o on it. All of it brought to you by our friends at the Maryland lottery, the Gold Rush, sevens, doublers. We’re gonna be bringing the Maryland crab cake tour and the Maryland oyster tour your way. We have one more crab cake tour stop this month later on, with fadelies, later in the month, on Friday, when the cheatstros are here. On the 23rd Luke will be joining me down there. Then we begin in September with the crab cake tours. We got about seven of them, an oyster tour that it’s going to include 26 we’re gonna change this to a 26th anniversary oyster, a flaming oyster, just like we ate them down at Dragos in New Orleans. We won the Super Bowl. We’re doing 26 oysters in 26 days, 26 ways. All of it brought to you by friends at the Maryland lottery, in conjunction with Liberty pure solutions, keeping our water clean, and that’s what oysters do for the bay, as well as our friends at shifty loop multi care keeping your engine clean and your oil clear, as well as getting Luke over to training camp this week. Baseball teams in Toronto and then off in Tampa over the weekend. Football team’s going to play on Friday night. Sort of fake football, not sort of real fake football. And Luke’s been out on the backfields for the last two weeks, minus a few Oriel trading deadline things. He is our he is the one they allow in to to actually do his job and work. So he does both this week. Luckily for you, there’s football during the day and baseball at night. What is going on in Owings, Mills, um, they’re this close to wrapping camp up all of a sudden, right? I mean, all these fan days and all that stuff that’s that goes away after next week, right? Well, I
Luke Jones 01:45
mean, we’re winding down. It’s not over yet, but it’s winding down. And as you alluded to, it’s a game week kind of, sort of, right? I mean, for the young guys, it’s certainly a game week. And I think, as you and I have probably spent more time talking about the offensive line than any other aspect of this football team going into 2024 it’s our first chance to see what that offensive line looks like. Now let’s, let’s also work under some parameters here that I’m expecting. I do not expect. We’re going to necessarily see Ronnie Stanley at left tackle, Tyler Linder bombs dealing with a little bit of a soft tissue tweak, whether it was a hamstring, calf, whatever they’re being vague, but you know, it’s not anything that’s perceived to be overly serious. He wasn’t going to play in the preseason opener anyway, but you’re certainly looking to see what Andrew Voorhees looks like at left guard as he gets his first NFL game action preseason or regular season or anything. This will be his first opportunity and plenty of interest in what the right side of the offensive line looks like. Now the Ravens put out their game release their initial depth chart. We’ve talked about this for years. The depth chart is put together by the Public Relations staff. It’s not the end all be all. It’s not the true depth chart, but it is the depth chart that’s based on what we’ve seen in practice, and as I have talked about on a few occasions, we’ve seen Daniel fall Lele at right guard quite a bit, certainly more than we had ever seen him before as someone who’d primarily worked as a right tackle. So
Nestor J. Aparicio 03:13
we’re going to see that Friday night, probably right him running a big guy out there right guard. Yeah, yeah, because, because you
Luke Jones 03:17
want to see if he can do it. I mean, I’m still not convinced that he’s going to be the guy week one, but they’re giving him a really, really long look at right guard, and it’s been him more so than Ben Cleveland, as I’ve alluded to, as we’re kind of in year three of thinking Ben Cleveland initially was going to be a starter and, well, wondering if it’s not going to happen once again. So and right tackle, Patrick McCary and Roger Rosengarten. We’ve seen Rosengarten start to to put a dent into some of those first team reps that McCary was getting exclusively. Now we’re seeing both of them, and I think that’s not surprising. I think in an ideal world, they would like Patrick McCarey to continue being that sixth guy, that guy that on game day will fill in if Ronnie Stanley hurts his ankle, or if Tyler linderbaum gets dinged and has to go into the blue medical tent, or playing right tackle, or anywhere we’ve seen McCary basically play anywhere on that offensive line. So you know, he’s kind of like the ultimate substitute teacher right where maybe they’re not getting the full time position, but the school really likes having that person around, because they could come in and fill in for anybody. I mean, that’s what Patrick McCary is for them. So they’ve wanted to, out of respect and reverence for him, I think they’ve wanted to give him the first crack at right tackle, and look, he still could end up being that guy in week one. But it’s very obvious they want Roger Rosengarten. They drafted him in the second round with designs of him being the right tackle sooner than later. So whether that’s week one, whether that’s week five, whether that’s later on in the second half of the season, that’s what they want to happen, and we’ll see if he’s up to the challenge.
Nestor J. Aparicio 04:56
So that’s all we’re watching on Friday. Right? Is this offensive line? Right? Of course. Question. I mean, and lender bombs not going to be in there. Stanley’s not going to play either, right? Right? I
Luke Jones 05:04
mean, like I said, Linder bombs banged up, and I I can’t fathom that they’re going to put Stanley out there. I mean, you know, whether you have a high degree of confidence in the player that Ronnie Stanley is at this point in his career, you know what he is? Right? I mean, it’s just a matter of you got to keep them healthy and upright, and playing them in the preseason doesn’t serve that purpose. So I think you’re going to look at all of your other guys, and there is some interest there. I mean, are there other positions of interest, of course. I mean, I want to see David ajabo on the defensive side, for example, you know. But in terms of starters, in terms of week one ramifications and what’s really consequential to the success of this football team. It’s all about the offensive line. So yeah, I want to see Voorhees, who, as I’ve said to you, of those three open spots on the offensive line, feels like he has the strongest grip on one of those jobs right now, at left guard, but I want to see that translate to him playing well against the Eagles starters or backups, or whoever’s going to be playing, right? I mean, I don’t expect Philadelphia to be playing many of their starters, either, so, but you want to be their
Nestor J. Aparicio 06:13
fans will show up drunk on Friday. Maybe,
Luke Jones 06:15
probably, yes, it’s Friday night. It’s summertime. I mean, why not? But
Nestor J. Aparicio 06:19
tickets are cheap or free, according to my timeline, so I
Luke Jones 06:23
not surprised to hear that, but, but, yeah, but you want to see these. I mean, these are the guys, right? I mean, these assuming they’re not Okay, is there one veteran move that they could hypothetically go out there and trade for some other teams, veteran guard or something like that? I mean, sure there’s that’s always a possibility, but for the most part, I mean, these are the guys that you’re going to be counting on, so you need to see what it looks like. You want to see these guys look the part well on Friday night, even if they’re going up against backups you want, you certainly don’t want to see Josh Johnson or Leary or Embry Jones or whoever’s lining up at quarterback running for their life. You know, you want to see a clean pocket. You want to see some some running lanes for the young running backs, presumably Derek Henry. Is it going to even come close to touching the field? I don’t know if Justice Hill will play all that much, quite frankly. So Young running backs, you want, you want to see running lanes and running room for them. But you want to see this look functional, right? The last thing you want to see is Voorhees and fall Lele and McCary and Rosengarten looking like getting blown up over and over, right? I mean, that’s a problem, right? That that will cause some concern in a preseason game. So, you know, there’s some curiosity there. I don’t want to oversell this Nestor to your point, you said it’s fake football. We’ve that’s kind of been our stick.
Nestor J. Aparicio 07:41
There’s no argument about whether it’s fake football or not, right? Oh,
Luke Jones 07:45
I mean, you know, and some people take offense. I mean, it’s just, well,
Nestor J. Aparicio 07:48
good, good. I’ve one more. I’ve offended. Good, good. But I
Luke Jones 07:52
we’re not talking about being disrespectful to the younger guys that are trying, yeah, of course, they’re trying to win jobs and all that. We’re talking about it in terms of an entertainment value, the product itself of being fake football, but, but that said, there is something you want. You want to see the offensive line look functional. You want to see it look it’s not going to be complete, because you’re not having linderbaum and Stanley out there. But the guys that are out there that are in the mix for starting jobs, you want to see it look okay. You know, you want to see Voorhees be able to move some people and look like he knows what he’s doing, and show good feet, and know his assignment, and all of that. So you want to see that from Fall Lele you want to see that from Rosengarten. So you know that’s that’s where there’s not angst, but there’s certainly interest in Friday’s game, albeit in a game that overall isn’t going to have a lot of appeal, because, yes, my full expectation is the only starters we’re going to see are guys that are establishing themselves and trying to become starters, the established guys, the veteran guys. We’re not going to see it, and that’s fine, right? I don’t want to see Lamar Jackson out there on Friday night, because there’s nothing, nothing good can come from that, you know, as we learn with JK, dot, things can happen from that, exactly so. So we’ll see how that plays out. But for those guys that are really trying to establish themselves, you know, Friday nights, uh, you know that that’s a big test for them, you know, you want to see them. Look the part of guys that can be starting off lineman
Nestor J. Aparicio 09:19
this week is, you know, fake football. We’ll have at it. We got real baseball. Every night. We get the baseball teams really interesting, as you and I have pointed out through all of this, the rest of the league, and I’m not glued to the NFL Network on August the first I’m just not and I’m not enamored with it in general. I’ve been watching more baseball trade deadline stuff a week ago, watching the Major League Baseball network and then trying to figure out when Masson isn’t showing high ally or worse, racing from Dubai. You know, just trying to figure out the baseball thing more than the football thing. I find it more compelling right now, after 33 years of doing this, the fact that we have a compelling baseball team that we wake up around here a month. Morning and Tuesday morning and Wednesday morning, thinking baseball, thinking about last night’s game, thinking about pitchers, thinking about roster, and we don’t even gamble, you and I imagine if we gambled the rest of these camps. I was in Cleveland, Ohio, spent the night last Sunday night. You never want to spend two nights in Ohio. But I did Sunday and Monday. I slept in in Cleveland, Ohio. So between concerts and driving home, I was driving home on Tuesday morning, and I realized, like, I could have gotten off the road in La Trobe and gone over. There’s a St Vincent’s college right there, where the 911 in Shanksville and the exit and all that stuff happened in Somerset. And it was the time of the day. I actually called my wife north of Pittsburgh. I called my son too, trying to find a good Pittsburgh lunch recommendation, but I called my wife like, time are they practicing today? I mean, I’m coming through. I probably could roll through, and I’ve been there before. I’ve been to St Vincent’s a couple of years ago with Mike Tom, actually the last training camp practice I went to since Chad Steele illicitly took my my press credential two years ago. But I thought, would it be fun? Would it not when I go there and it turned out like it was the day they had the brawl, um, and I’m thinking to myself, other than Orlando brown creating a battle royal out on the field in in the original Orlando brown senior, Zeus, um, not the little one that made all the money, the other one with the temper tantrums, um, I saw that once out in Owings Mills, not always, most, excuse me, Westminster, many years ago, dude, that Pittsburgh scene was kind of crazy. You don’t see that modern much, and Tomlin sort of cheering it on and quarterbacks involved like not what I would want to see if I’m a Steeler fan. And certainly that would be pretty big news if there was a brawl out there today and you were in the middle of it, right? Yeah. I
Luke Jones 11:46
mean, look, have there been dust UPS over the years? Have there been a couple, you know, a couple players that swing at each other? Yeah? I mean, you see that. I mean, on average, you’ll see that once a year, maybe once every other year. It doesn’t seem as common as it used to be, even from when I started covering training camp back in, oh, 910, 11, you know, in that, in that era, so, so, you know, I mean, you still see that from time to time. I mean, I don’t think there’s necessarily anything that that is all that telling about that, other than you just don’t want anyone to get seriously hurt, right? I mean, football players, they get chippy, and it’s hot out there, and they’re in pads. And you know some of these guys, you know veteran players. I mean, my goodness, the ravens are still their veterans. Are still a month away from playing in a game, right? I mean, they’re not going to play in these three preseason games the established guys. So you want to talk about the dog days, and camp even started earlier than normal. Yeah,
Nestor J. Aparicio 12:38
you’re trying to get smarter and stronger in the heat, without hitting each other, without getting hurt, and trying to get some benefit out of it. For performative measures, for the coaches, in regard to evaluation, without really doing what you do at full speed, because they don’t want you to do it, nor do you want to do it weird. Well,
Luke Jones 13:01
and then what often happens that causes these kind of dust ups and brawls and different things is you have an overzealous player, whether it’s a rookie who doesn’t know any better, whether it’s a veteran trying to win a job, trying to hold off a rookie, or just be a dick, right? And sometimes, like people, just guys just get ticked off at each other in the moment, and they’ll be fine. They’ll laugh about it an hour later. But a veteran
Nestor J. Aparicio 13:25
guy who’s got 80 million in the bank and has money hazing a young kid trying to make the team, that really becomes problematic with the wrong kind of leadership. It really does.
Luke Jones 13:37
I mean, it can look I’m not going to sit here and try to be outraged about like that, that culture has been in the NFL for so long. And yes, there are absolutely times where it goes over the line. And John
Nestor J. Aparicio 13:50
Harbaugh, one of his last words to me before he threw me out with Jack Steele, was, we take care of each other around here. We look after each other. We take care of each other. He loves saying that, you know, I love watching that out here while you’re my only employee in there doing it, but I, but we take care of each other, is his mantra in this camp, which is why I don’t think he would like what happened in Pittsburgh last week to get it. That was a little while that was that looked like a street brawl. It was it just it had bad optics, all of it,
Luke Jones 14:24
sure. I mean, I mean, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna sit here and condone it, but I’m also not gonna sit here and say that that is any
Nestor J. Aparicio 14:31
sign of a bigger problem. John, at the end of the day, would shut the door with the cost and see we can’t have that going on here.
Luke Jones 14:38
I think he would, but, but I also think he’d get over it pretty quickly, too, sure. And that’s kind of my point, right? Sure, sure, so. But, you know, Pittsburgh, as we bring it back to, you know, just kind of sizing up the division. I mean, how about the fact that, you know, Russell Wilson’s been dealing with the cap, and that’s given Justin fields a lot of reps, you know? So I think what’s so fascinating in the AFC North is. Is you look at the Ravens with a healthy Lamar Jackson, and yes, they have some questions about the offensive line pass rush. I mean, every team has position groups that they’re going to have questions about. Even Kansas City has position groups where there are questions right now, and they’ve won their third Super Bowl and a five year period. But I think when you look at the ravens, you look at the Bengals with it looking like Joe burrow is healthy, looks like the wrist is not, you know, anything that’s going to linger, other than just maybe managing his reps here early in camp. But you have two teams who very clearly if their quarterbacks healthy, and that’s a big if for both, and even more so for borough right now. I mean, for as much as we’ve talked about, lamar’s injury concerns, Burroughs had just as many, if not more, injuries than Lamar. So it’s fair to point that out, if we’re being objective, you know, looking at it in a big picture sense. But so you have these two teams that, if healthy, if their quarterbacks are right, are very much contenders in the AFC I think it’s easy to say that, but you look at Cleveland, who I think has a really, really good roster otherwise, but what, where in the world is Deshaun Watson at this point in time, and that you know, putting aside how you feel about him as a person off the field, all the baggage, which is part of the overall discussion, but in terms of just who is he as a player? Can
Nestor J. Aparicio 16:14
he play? Can he play? Can he win 12 games? Can he be a $50 million a year quarterback? Right?
Luke Jones 16:21
I mean, regardless. I mean, the money’s paid, the money’s a sunk cost at this point. What, Where does he rank in terms of the quarterbacks right now? Can he be a top 10 quarterback again? Can, can he be a top half of the league quarterback? I mean, he hasn’t even been that since going to Cleveland. So you have him, and then you have Pittsburgh, who, again, good roster overall, I think. But you know, what is Russell Wilson at this point in time? What is Justin fields at this point in time? I think Russell Wilson probably is perceived as having the higher floor. But is he a guy that’s going to lead you deep into January at this point? I have my doubts about that. On the flip side, Justin fields, who was in a terrible situation in Chicago. Don’t think he got much help now. It doesn’t mean he doesn’t still have developing an improvement to make, but I do wonder if he’s the better upside play for Pittsburgh in terms and obviously they’re both under contract for a year, right? Neither one is the long term solution
Nestor J. Aparicio 17:16
at this point, and Ben Roethlisberger is not coming back, but he pick it right, right? And
Luke Jones 17:20
they jettison Pickett. So I told you what they thought about him, but I think that’s an interesting dynamic, especially with this calf issue, where you know I’m not I and I’m like you, especially trying to watch the Orioles and watch what’s happening in baseball. I’d be lying to you if I said I’ve been paying close attention to what’s going on in camps elsewhere, beyond the rage. But
Nestor J. Aparicio 17:41
that’s my point. My point is, I’m not paying attention in this, but it comes to me and I’m like, Oh, it’s coming out of Lake Trove. That’s not good news at Pittsburgh. Well,
Luke Jones 17:49
it’s that. But the other like, that’s why I brought, brought it up there to me. The real interesting thing, though, is the quarterback dynamic, you know, Russell Wilson missing time and fields, getting number one reps, and, you know, I haven’t gotten indications that he’s lighting lighting it up, but also haven’t seen that he’s been terrible either. So, you know, I think it’s interesting. I mean, I certainly think from a skill set standpoint. I mean, Justin fields, the way he can run. I mean, that gives them a dynamic that Russell Wilson, at this stage in his career, is not even going to come close to doing so I am intrigued to see what that looks like. And I think, you know, you look at the AFC north, as I said to me, it’s ravens, Bengals, and then there’s a little bit of separator, but I think the Steelers and the Browns both have the potential to be interesting. I don’t think either of those teams are bad by any means. But you know, what does the quarterback picture look like for those two teams? So it’s a really interesting division in that way. And that’s where you kind of look at the ravens and say, All right, you know, I might be uneasy about the offensive line. Do they have enough depth at outside linebacker? You know, go through the list. But overall, you look at those problems and those questions and those unknowns, compared to these other teams in the division who don’t really know what they have at quarterback. And I’ll take the Raven situation any day. I’ll take the Bengals situation any day, compared to what Cincinnati or compared to what Cleveland and Pittsburgh are trying to figure out right now.
Nestor J. Aparicio 19:17
Where are you Cincinnati? They’re another interesting group. BURROWS hair is interesting, just all of it the way the grand has grown there after Marvin left. The way they went to the Super Bowl, and probably could have, should have won out in LA a couple years ago, but, um, I still look at them as being the biggest risk factor for the Ravens all the way through. Because I believe in the quarterback. I believe in Joe burrow. I buy what he sells, much more so than golf or some of the other guys around the league that are might be not is, is, I think Joe burrows very much and is, and I think they’ll have a parade in Cincinnati at some point. I I’ll be shocked if he doesn’t win a Super Bowl at. Some point now, whether that’s this year or not, but I give him over the next five to seven years in Cincinnati with health. Um, I don’t want to say I’d like him more to win a Super Bowl before Lamar, because I like what the Ravens do around Lamar, but Lamar in the middle of of the ocean and Joe burrow in the middle of the ocean, not being surrounded what the Ravens have done around Lamar, and whether they win a Super Bowl or not, books will be written on that. I might be the guy that writes it, in regard to how different the Ravens have done things. Burrow could fit in anywhere and be that guy and that sort of an offense. It’s more traditional. But all that being said, I think burrow is going to win a Super Bowl. I would put $1 on that. If I were going up the Hollywood casino and saying, Give me a quarterback to win a Super Bowl in the next five years, put $100 on it at whatever the thing is, I would take burrow to be a guy who’s going to win one. And that’s, and that’s not a knock on Lamar. It’s more if the Ravens win, it wouldn’t be it would be because of all the things they do around Lamar. But I think Joe burrow is really special, and I continue it drives Leonard Raskin nuts because he hates him. I guess there’s an LSU thing going on there too, and he’s cocky, and the cigars and the finger wagon and all that stuff. I just I’m, I’m bullish on burrow as a player. Okay,
Luke Jones 21:19
I mean, look, I like Joe burrow. I’m not, I’m not looking at him and saying, Oh, I, you know, I’d much, much rather have him than Lamar Jackson, because Joe burrow can’t stay healthy. I mean, let’s face it, all the, all the talk about Lamar style play. I mean, Joe burrow, no, he’s not a guy who takes off and runs but torn ACL had, what the calf issue last, last summer, wrist. I mean, we’ve kind of talked about, it’s been crazy to think that these two guys have been in the league for four years together, and we have yet to see a season where they are both healthy at the end of the year, one or the other has misplayed each other in a big game. And that’s a way where the stakes are high, right? Yeah. I mean, they played early season games, and, you know, they played some good games against each other. But, like, yeah, that late December, January, like one or the other has been hurt.
Nestor J. Aparicio 22:04
We remember the mahomes Jackson Games. We remember the Roethlisberger Flacco game, right? I mean, you know, in regard to that, this Lamar borough thing should, over the next three years, produce a handful of really big games where they’re both thinking they’re going to be 11 and two or 10 and three or whatever, right?
Luke Jones 22:25
Yeah, I mean, the one, the one thing I’ll push back on a little bit that you made mention, because you talked about what Lamar has around him. And look, obviously, the Ravens have a very good roster. There’s, there’s no question about that, and have had a good roster. You know, we could, we could certainly debate the quality of the wide receivers they’ve had, or this position, or that specific position, but overall, it’s been a good roster Pro Bowls and all that would support that. However, let’s also keep in mind Joe burrows had Jamar Chase. He’s had T Higgins. I mean two legit, serious number one receivers. I mean T Higgins is going to go somewhere else and be a number one wide receiver after this year, presumably. And you know, one thing that we need to keep in mind, and this is something that I have noticed and I have paid attention to, you know, T Higgins is basically kind of sort of holding in right now. You know, he’s not or not. T Higgins, Jamar Chase is basically holding in right now, and he’s there, he’s going through the meetings all that, but he’s not practicing, or hasn’t been practicing or hasn’t been practicing the first couple weeks. So there is a contract situation there. And the same thing for borough will apply to Lamar moving forward. As these guys have bigger and bigger cap numbers and they’re being compensated the way that they deserve to be compensated, it does make the rest of your roster building more challenging. Now, the thing about Cincinnati, and, you know, even moving aside from the borough specific talk, I do think they’ve fortified their defense some you know, they lost, remember, keep in mind, last year, they lost both of their starting safeties and free agency, and what was a very clear strength of theirs two years ago was absolutely a liability for them last year. So, you know, they bring in Geno stone, they brought in some other players. Think their defense looks better. Running back looks different for them. Now, of course, no longer Joe Mixon, but you know, it seems like there’s, you know, they like what they have there. So, you know, it’s some I think it’s a more complete Bengals team than it was a year ago. You know that offensive line is certainly not as problematic as it was a couple years ago, but I think there’s still some questions about just how good it really is, but same questions we have here, if healthy, yeah, that’s fine. I have no problem acknowledging that. But, you know, with them, it’s just like the Ravens. I mean, say what you want about them and which one you like better, you know, Joe burrow or Lamar Jackson. I mean that to your point, I think there are two guys that you absolutely feel you can you have the capability of winning a Super Bowl with, and that’s obviously acknowledging that other things need to go right around them. But, you know, I think burrows got to stay healthy, you know, I’ll hear what you just said, but he’s got to stay healthy, right? In the same way we talked about that with Lamar for two years in a row. He’s got to stay healthy, because if they don’t, then their teams are just like anyone else then at that point, right? I mean, maybe a little bit better, maybe not disaster, but certainly not a team that’s going to make a deep run if those quarterbacks aren’t physically right 100% so I think that’s the big question for Cincinnati. I I like the ravens, like if I’m handicapping this, I mean, the ravens are my favorite to win the division, but I think Cincinnati’s right there, and it’s going to be a matter of who stays healthier, who, among some of the positions that each team has questions about right now, you know, who’s going to find enough answers? You know who’s going to be able to be able to mitigate their weaknesses is the Jamar Chase T Higgins thing going to be tenable, you know, meaning that those guys aren’t going to be malcontent about number of targets or what’s going on with their role in the offense or whatever. I mean, they’re, you know, business decisions for those guys coming up. So, you know, you you always have some of that that goes on on your roster, but
Nestor J. Aparicio 26:03
business around here last year, did we get a lot of
Luke Jones 26:07
that? Sure, sure, sure. And they ended up being the number one seed, right? I mean, they ended up being the best team in football in the regular season. So it shows that, yeah, you can have some question marks and you can figure it out. So I think it’s interesting. I mean, Joe burrow is facing the same questions that Lamar Jackson faces, that Josh Allen faces in Buffalo, that take your pick. You know, CJ Stroud, we’re going to start talking about him in those terms, because off of his rookie year and expectations that Houston now has with what they did with their roster. They’re all chasing mahomes, right? They’re all trying to unseat mahomes. And I get it, yes, Joe burrow does have the AFC Championship win a couple years ago over Kansas City. And the Bengals did get to a Super Bowl, but they didn’t finish the job. So until they do that, they’re all in that same category. That’s why, as I’ve said, you know when you and I have had our our breathless debates about Lamar and you know where he ranks, and what the ceiling is, and how, how long of a career, and all those different things. I mean, you know, he’s in the same boat as any of those other top quarterbacks that are trying to, you know, they’re trying to unseat mahomes. It’s mahomes. And then there’s their staff.
Nestor J. Aparicio 27:10
When you actually win one, and they, they try to take it away from you or your borough, and you are more accomplished than Lamar because you’ve been to a Super Bowl. And they’ll be like, Wow, Lamar still better. Or, you know, whatever the record is, the record, you know, you get there when you get there. And I, by the way, Luke is here Baltimore. Luke, I don’t want to meander on the Bengals thing, but I had a really interesting piece show up on Twitter, a fist fight in late July, like you have on Twitter about whether Mike tomlin’s a Hall of Fame coach or not. I saw some nflers weighing in on this, and if Mike Tomlins a Hall of Fame coach doesn’t that make John Harbaugh and Pete Carroll name anybody that won one championship? That’s an interesting debate this time of year, when you had the Hall of Fame happen out in Canton this week, kind of quietly when the Ravens go in, um, but you know, Ray and Ed Reed, those guys all show up, and there’s something to be said, and there’s bust and there’s jackets, and there’s dinners and all of that stuff. But playing for that sort of, Am I going to be a Hall of Famer? Way early for burrow, way early for Jackson, over with, for mahomes, right? My home’s in. It’s, it’s over with for him. So you know that that legacy play for these coaches, poor, horrible and Tomlin and the guys that, whether it was Belichick hanging on at the end and taking a seat from somebody else, but everybody else is just sort of clawing to figure it out. I mean, like, right? Like the guy out in LA was going to retire a year ago and just go away, right, become John Madden, yeah. I
Luke Jones 28:47
mean, I think it’s interesting, because you you probably could make a case already for Mike Tomlin or John Harbaugh, if for no other reason. I mean, obviously both of those guys were more successful over the first half of their coaching tenure, in terms of playoff wins, in terms of winning a Super Bowl, in the case of Tomlin, got two Super Bowls, so you know. And even though the Ravens have had more regular season success than Pittsburgh in recent years, both both of those coaches, their January track records over the back half of their tenure in their respective cities, has been a little more. You know, it hasn’t been quite as good as as it had been, but you could probably make an argument. I mean, let’s face it, Bill cower got in the Hall of Fame. I mean, do we look at Bill cower as a a demonstrably better coach than Mike Tomlin or John Harbaugh? I mean, no, based on what so you would, but based on that, you could say that they’re already but I think the point I’m trying to make here, and I’m drawing it out a little bit, but if Mike Tomlin wins one more Super Bowl, it’s not even a debate anymore. If John Harbaugh wins one more Super Bowl, it’s not even a debate, they’re locked, right? It’s just a matter of what year they go in. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, you’re talking about that, and I’d say this, you know, you mentioned Patrick mahomes, of course, three Super Bowls already, a guy that could probably retire tomorrow, and it would shock everyone, but he would get in the Hall of Fame, you know, might, might wait around for a while because they’d say, Oh, he didn’t have a long enough career. But, you know, Terrell Davis kind of ended, you know, that talk after a while. But I think in the case of Lamar, if Lamar wins a Super Bowl this year, he’s, he’s a lock for the Hall of Fame, then go. Look at the go. Look at the list of quarterbacks that have won two MVPs in the Super Bowl. They’re all in. Kurt Warner was the one who waited a little while, but he got in, he would be a lock. So yeah, this is, this is what we’re talking about here. This is very much some legacy defining kind of stuff, especially if you’re the Ravens or the Bengals at this point with Joe burrow. I mean, it’s, you know, go in. It’s that simple. And especially the ravens, who’ve been number one seed and had an MVP quarterback and had 789, guys make Pro Bowls and all pro teams and all of this. You know, they’ve done all of that. It’s just a matter of Go, go, finish a job. Now, easier said than done, with Patrick mahomes and Andy Reid are in the midst of a dynasty in Kansas City, but that’s what we’re talking about here. I mean, it’s that simple. So yeah, if you’re you know, it’s harder for me to imagine Mike Tomlin winning another Super Bowl right now, until they’ve got a franchise quarterback, because I’m still not convinced Russell. I certainly don’t think Russell Wilson is going to be the answer in that regard. And unless Justin fields gets a chance and suddenly looks like the guy, you know, I think there’s still going to be a team that’s looking for a franchise quarterback. But in the case of the ravens and the Bengals, they have their franchise guy. It’s just a matter of, gotta go win. You know, it’s that simple. So you know it, it is funny this time of year talk about this. And I’d be remiss too, if I didn’t also mention with the Hall of Fame Marshall yonder and Terrell Suggs both eligible next year. I think both really interesting cases in terms of, I think they’ll both be in at some point. I don’t know if they’ll be first ballot or whether they’ll wait. I think Marshall yanda absolutely gets in. And I think probably will be a credit to pro football focus and some of these analytic sites that have tried to quantify offensive line play, and they show just how darn good he was for about a decade. You know, in the case of Suggs, you know, longevity, you know, for a guy who had the had the Achilles injuries at what year, you know, year eight, year nine, when he had his first Achilles injury and ended up having another good five years after that. I mean, I mean, I think Suggs is going to be a Hall of Fame player. Do? I think he’s going to be in first ballot like Ray and Ed and Ogden probably, I’m guessing he’s going to wait a year or two, you know? But when we’re talking about these legacies, Super Bowls are a big part of it. And if you’re John Harbaugh, if you’re Mike Tomlin, you know, any coach that’s in that realm. I mean, those are the two longest tenured at this point. It’s kind of crazy to think about it in those terms, but that’s where we are. And, you know, one more Super Bowl makes, you know, again, I think they probably already do get into the Hall of Fame eventually, as as as it stands now. But one more Super Bowl, it’s like, oh, it’s not even, you don’t even talk about it anymore. It’s just understood. And you know, same thing for you know, Lamar wins a Super Bowl, he’s going to the Hall of Fame. I mean, he is. I mean, I
Nestor J. Aparicio 33:29
It’s crazy. Joe Flacco, if Lee Evans caught that pass, Joe Flacco could have won two Super Bowls back to back, and they still wouldn’t put him in the Hall of Fame.
Luke Jones 33:38
Well, I mean, they view, well, Eli Manning’s talked about in that way, right? He’s
Nestor J. Aparicio 33:41
like, literally that, like Joe came, they’ll piss on Joe forever, but Joe threw the pass in New England that didn’t get caught, and the kicker missed the kick and and still to this day, Harbaugh has not taken on any water for not calling a time out that he had. So like, all of that happened that would have changed flacco’s trajectory. Flacco would have been a back to back call Super Bowl guy. Oh, we don’t know if they would want
Luke Jones 34:06
or not. You know, I was gonna say, we don’t know if they win. I would say this, if they went that year, they would have screwed. I don’t think they win the next year. But because, for one thing, I’m wondering if Ray Lewis plate comes back, you know, hmm, you know, does Ray Lewis just right off into the sunset. Then, I don’t know, you know what,
Nestor J. Aparicio 34:23
where’s Ed fictional piece? Oh, yeah. I
Luke Jones 34:27
mean, this is what we talked about on August 5, but we know they’re getting ready to play a game where none of the starters are going to play. I mean, we can, we can open up and talk about this, but yeah. I mean, look there. It is interesting. It is ironic, and that’s where I think Joe and Lamar are such interesting. You know, the contrast in who they are as players has been so different. I mean, Lamar has been a way, way better quarterback than Joe Flacco in the regular season statistically speaking. I mean, it’s just it he’s going to MVPs. I mean, Joe could have. Made a pro bowl or two as an alternate but, you know, that was the ceiling for him in the regular season, playoffs. You know, Joe had his incredible run, and had a couple other years where his postseason runs were good. Lamar has not been that guy. You know, Lamar has two MVPs. Joe has a Super Bowl MVP that Lamar covets right now. So, you know, the contrast in their playing style couldn’t be more different. So, you know, it is interesting, but it is Marshall yonder
Nestor J. Aparicio 35:27
who he liked better. He would be the equal. He would be the one to play with both of them at an incredibly high level, right?
Luke Jones 35:33
I think Marshall would flat out tell you, Hey, I love Joe Flacco. And you know what he would also say, Man, I wish I had been a little bit younger when Lamar Jackson came around, because he was pretty fun to play for. Play with too. So Marshall, a lot of fun playing with Lamar. I mean, he Lamar, or Marshall, talked about this his last couple years. He said, I’d never had more fun on the football field than I did then. And look, and he said, and he was clear to say, I love Joe Flacco. And he did. I mean, those guys, you know, I don’t know if they’re hanging out outside of football these days, but you know that certainly there’s a lot of reverence that they have
Nestor J. Aparicio 36:05
for each other. If Marshall plays more golf, maybe he could hang out with you and but if you recall, I should say that about Joe. Joe’s got an Indian Apple sweating right now, playing football, still
Luke Jones 36:14
playing, still playing. But you know, Joe came down the road for Marshall’s retirement right before the right before the world shut down with When Marshall lost all the weight, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I mean, it’s, it is so fascinating how we view postseason legacies in terms of when someone’s great in the regular season, oh yes, they need that. And then, if they get it great, and then they’re a Hall of Fame player, whatever. But then we have these guys, like a Joe Flacco, like an Eli man, and guys who left something to be desired in terms of, like, their regular season profile, in terms of like, talking about them, like in the Hall of Fame, or something like that. Guys that aren’t Hall of Fame players based on what they did in the regular season, but they they played some of their best football in the biggest stage. And then, in some ways, we want to penalize players who do that, so players that are great in the regular season, some of their biggest fans wanted to be dismissive about the postseason, like it doesn’t matter as much. I mean, it’s just everyone’s got an agenda. You know, when we’re trying to carve out legacies and there’s a lot of subjectivity that goes into it, there’s no question about that. But in the case of Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, Joe burrow, CJ Stroud, I mean all the to a tongue of Aloha who just got a big contract, Justin Herbert, who’s heard again, you know, all these quarterbacks that have been somewhere in the top 10 vicinity over the last five to six years, and obviously Stroud just came into the league, but, you know, had a great rookie season. All of these guys are kind of in the same boat. I mean, mahomes is way up here, you know, way up here, with three titles already and still going strong. And the rest of those guys are all trying to change it. Stafford was different because Stafford’s older, you know, Stafford’s at the end of his career. You know, he kind of belongs with the previous generation of quarterbacks who’ve since retired, but all these young guys, you know, that’s why I say, yeah, it’s part of lamar’s legacy. But at the same time, Peyton Manning, go look at what how he was talked about in year 678, that’s all they talked about at that point. Oh, Manning’s no Tom Brady, he can’t win a Super Bowl. Like we didn’t talk about it in the same terms that it’s there on social media every single second of every single day, but go back and probably find old ESPN studio shows where that’s what they talked about. And I know that’s what I talked about with my friends, saying Peyton Manning can’t win in January. So you know that’s, that’s what these guys are all facing. I mean, until
Nestor J. Aparicio 38:39
the Holmes is doing it without cheating. I mean, there’s no question Brady is cheating. I mean, there’s no doubt about that. I mean, like, I’ll, I, I’ll die on that hill taking the air out of those footballs. They never fumbled. Like, there’s no question that Brady did some cheating, and Belichick did a lot of cheating. I mean, monkeys and trees with cameras. I mean, at least the chiefs, to me, so far so good. Feels like it’s been on the up and up.
Luke Jones 39:05
Okay. I mean, I’m not, I’m not going over Deflategate with you again. It’s too early in the morning. You would take the
Nestor J. Aparicio 39:11
bait on it. But that’s how I feel about Tom Brady. I feel like Tom Brady. And I also feel like wherever the drug testing is on the clear, the clear and the cream and how Tom Brady. Tom Brady had money to do something that was above and beyond cryogenics and balcom. You know, I look at Tom Brady and I say, it’s such a weird outlier, and he was such a cheater to begin with, and in a cheating system in in New England where, I mean, if, if I took the saliva test with horrible I’m telling you, most of the coaches believe that the visiting locker room was wired there, um, because there was such a because Belichick cheated. I mean, he was, he’s just, he was a crooked dude. So all that being said, the chiefs are doing this to me in a different kind of way. Three out of five for the chiefs in the modern era this, and if the fact. Get mahomes is not even 30, right? I mean, like, still picking up momentum in this thing, the chiefs have a lot, you know, a lot to continue to come back and continue to prove right. I mean, for me, they’re still and by the way, I wanted to ask you this, this was my segue. Wasn’t to get you to talk about Tom Brady. My segue is, we’re a month out on, kicking off, and the Ravens have never kicked off like this. I mean, the Denver game, we went out there and Keith Urban came here and played for nobody, and angelos, God rest his soul. He never punched down. Um, we didn’t have that night here. Gonna kind of have that night out in Kansas City, in that they’re walking into, and we’ll talk about it three weeks from now, four weeks from now, for the game. But this first game, man, I when I I’m looking at my calendar for the oyster tour in September, like, where am I going to be? Where the Orioles going to be? Where’s Luke going to be? Where am I doing crab cake tours? What’s going on in September? And I’m like, Man, that’s a long ass 10 days after that first game, where that first game is going to be us, like, not just here, whatever sports bar you’re in, or if you’re one of the 300 people that are going out to Kansas City, and you’re going to sit in the upper deck and watch them raise another flag, man that night is like little hair on the back already in that the Ravens have never kicked the season off like this.
Luke Jones 41:18
Yeah. I mean, I think it’s a great opportunity. I i know a lot of people are going to try to equate it with, like, exacting revenge. No, no. Week one, I’m sorry, kickoff game or not. No, it’s not going to make up for just
Nestor J. Aparicio 41:30
you lose by a fraction and you got a pound that Owen won for, for 10 days, 11 days, like, it’s a really tough game to lose, it’s a tough game to play. It’s a tough game to draw. It’s a tough game on the road. It’s a tough game. It really is.
Luke Jones 41:46
It is, but you also need to have the maturity and the culture on your football team and understanding it is one game and and on the flip side, if they win, that doesn’t mean that they’ve exercised the demons and everything, that they’re just going to coast, right? I mean, you don’t want to have that mindset either, but it’s, it’s big. I mean, obviously it’s gonna be entertaining. I mean, I being part of the season opening game. What other game has that kind of attention on it, other than the Super Bowl or the conference championship games? I would even say like something like Thanksgiving. There’s still Thanksgiving. It’s also
Nestor J. Aparicio 42:18
never had the two best players in the sport, coming off an AFC Championship game where we lost it here, and they ran the ball three times, and that’s going to get vomited out a million like, it is really juicy. And I have been looking at my own calendar and figuring, like, what are we going to be talking about the next week with the Raiders, and who do the Orioles play and all that? And I’m thinking, Oh my God, if they lose. You know, I mean, because if they win, it’s well, they’re going to host the champion. If they lose it, it feels nice to win, it’ll feel awful to lose.
Luke Jones 42:49
I mean, it will, but I don’t know, Nestor Aparicio, much stock into a September 5 football game. You want to win, of course, you want to win. And I think it would help their early season Mojo immensely if they win, but if they lose it, they’re all in one I mean, okay, you know what I mean? Like it, I think it, it’s frustrating because it’d be against the Chiefs again, but to the point that I just made, I mean, they beat the chiefs in week two, back in 21 did that do anything for them in the big picture? No. So, I mean, so I hear what you’re saying, but I can’t. I can’t put that much into it. I just can’t. I think it’s fun. The excitement level is going to be huge. It’s the first game. It is the MVP going up against the defending Super Bowl champions on the heels of what happened in the in the at the title game. But if the Ravens lose, I don’t think I’m put it this way, whatever I ultimately am predicting the ravens to do this year, if they lose in week one, it’s not causing me to revisit that. If they win in week one, it’s not causing me to change my prediction on that. You know, you just, you want to win. But September is not the same as January. And I would say this, the Ravens could win by three touchdowns on September 5 and blow out the chiefs on the road. You know what come January? You know what that game is going to mean? Nothing. It’s going to be all about January, and everyone’s going to be talking about, you know? Because if the chiefs are in the title game again, whether they go 10 and seven or 15 and two, they’re gonna be saying, Oh, they’re gonna do what they did last year. Last year, everyone said they weren’t that good. And then they, in January, they flipped the switch, and they and they were the Chiefs again. So, you know it, I think you have to take it for what it is, which is a heck of a fun football game, a great way to open the season. It’s a great opportunity to start the year on a high note, especially playing on the road, but if you lose, yeah, it’s going to make for a long weekend of not feeling great about yourselves. But then you have the Raiders coming in the following Sunday at home. And I don’t think the Raiders are going to be all that good. So, you know, you can’t make too much out of any of these games early in the season. But of course, there’s going to be a lot of excitement about it, a lot of anticipation. I just don’t know. I just don’t know what it does in terms of legacy and big picture and all that, other than just hey, you want to start out one and oh rather than oh and one, but September chiefs are not the same as January chiefs in the same way that the September, October, November, December ravens, unfortunately, have not been the Ravens that we see in January. So you know, from from that standpoint, it is week one, and it’s exciting, but certainly not something for me personally, that I’m going to be making too much of whether they win or lose, other than just hey, you want to win to start out the year on a high note. Diesel
Nestor J. Aparicio 45:50
Jones. He is Baltimore, Luke. He will be at camp all week long and up late with the Orioles as they go north of the border and then off to Tampa this week, we like to call in the first place, Orioles. I don’t know when you hear this, whether they’ll still be or not, but we are into what is 33 years into this. It is the first broadcast of our 27th year now. Uh, we’re 26 plus two days into this crazy thing we call wnst. All of our legacy up at Baltimore positive Luke is going to be back and forth. You can follow him anywhere the interwebs go. At Baltimore Luke and of course, always throw me a note Ness at Baltimore positive.com he’s Luke. I’m Nestor. We’re going to Marilyn crabcake Tour presented by the Maryland lottery, in conjunction with our friends at Liberty, pure solutions and Jiffy Lube MultiCare. We’re bringing it to you on the 23rd as we kick off a 26th anniversary oyster tour throughout the month of September, because that month has an R and they play baseball and football. We’re Baltimore positive.com. Stick with us. You.
