Luke Jones and Nestor take a hard look at Orioles rotation and bullpen and where Mike Elias is going to find solutions as the team stalls in first place.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, year, soto, pitching, orioles, fans, bullpen, dominguez, money, couple, weeks, team, kimbrel, point, thought, trust, games, craig, talking, craig kimbrel
SPEAKERS
Luke Jones, Nestor Aparicio
Nestor Aparicio 00:00
Music. Welcome home. We are W, N, S T, Dassault, Baltimore, Baltimore, positive. We are positively taking the Maryland crabcake tour back out on the road as well as 26 oysters in 26 days for our 26th anniversary, beginning in September. Thatโll start on September the fifth. This Friday, weโre going to be at not Costas, excuse me, fates, this week Iโm wearing my Costa shirt. We cost this next month. Weโre gonna be at Cocos on the fourth Luke will be joining me down at fates at Lexington market on Friday afternoon, between about one five, weโll be down there for a little while before the ball game for the cheatstros come to town. All of it brought to you by friends at the Maryland lottery. Weโll have the Gold Rush sevens doublers to give away. Also our friends at Jiffy Lube MultiCare, as well as the Liberty pure solutions, putting us out on the road. Lukeโs been out on the road all week long. They allow him in Owings Mills. They allow mccamden yards. Heโs done both back and forth breakfast with the ravens and fake football on Saturday, and a lot, a lot of baseball. One thing Luke Jones cannot do, heโs a man of many talents. He cannot close games for the Baltimore Orioles that he cannot work long relief in the fifth, sixth and seventh innings. Theyโre going to New York now, right? And they have this thing, and then theyโll play the Astros. They have games coming up against the worst teams in baseball around Labor Day, so there is a little feeling of like they can get well again before the beginning of September, if they can figure this thing out, but the bullpen on nights when they get good starts, um, itโs got to shut the door. And so far, and I heard Jim Palmer say this about the dealings. Um, weโre now three weeks past the trading deadline, and Palmerโs given Elias big thumbs up on the deals. And I thought, Well, ethlin has been really good, sir Anthonyโs been good. Um, so no, not so much, right, you know, and Rogers, not so much. But I donโt, we didnโt expect them all to come out and look like, you know, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez, right? Yeah. I mean, I
Luke Jones 01:57
think itโs kind of what we talked about at the time, where Sir Anthony Dominguez has been really good. Heโs been their best reliever. Itโs kind of crazy that heโs gone from being cast aside by the Phillies, who, by the way, theyโre having severe bullpen issues. And theyโre probably thinking, Oh, weโd probably like to have Dominguez back at the very least, especially with Austin Hayes being on the IL but that
Nestor Aparicio 02:19
trade was about his option next year too, right? That they, they pretty much decided weโre not giving him 8 million bucks next year, so letโs get something for him, right? That was kind of the idea well, but he also hadnโt
Luke Jones 02:30
been as consistent for them. You know, his era was right around four. You know, long ball had been an issue. We saw him give up a home run on Sundays, given up two home runs, and whatโs otherwise been outstanding work by Dominguez. But you look at the state of this Orioles bullpen right now, itโs where you look at it and say, was there another deal to be made? Perhaps what you gave up for Trevor Rogers, and again, weโre going to see how that plays out over the next couple years, because heโs got a couple years of club control. I think thereโs some optimism and hope and some idea in mind that not just whatever he was going to give them for the rest of 2024 but also what he might be over the next year or two. But when you look at what they gave up in Kyle Stowers and Connor Norby, was there another deal out there somewhere to be made to give up those two guys for another bullpen arm that maybe would be helping them right now, who knows? Itโs hard to say. We know that some bullpen arms were moved that might have been better than what the Orioles acquired, but teams gave up a lot for it. So you know, itโs the state of their bullpen is not itโs not great right now, to say the least, when youโre talking about Dominguez, and even on Sunday, I mean, yen your canoe, weโve talked about him certainly been more good than bad this year, and overall, has been good, but heโs had his stretches where he hasnโt been as good, and we saw him once again on Sunday, when he comes in with a couple runners on base, it tends To be more of a struggle for him. And I get it. People will say, well, Brendan Hyde should never bring him in when runners are on base. It doesnโt work that way, right? I mean, if youโre a reliever, inevitably, youโre going to have to inherit some runners from time to time. And, you know,
Nestor Aparicio 04:15
come in, you walk guys and stuff. As I in my in my cleverness, thatโs a canono.
Luke Jones 04:23
Yeah, it is. But, I mean, weโve seen that with Jenny or Cano. Heโs had a few more issues with some walks and the long ball this year that has prevented him from being as good as he was last year. You know, heโs still on their list of concerns in their bullpen. Cano is still pretty low on that list because heโs one of the few guys left that I actually have at least some trust in, not saying I have complete trust in Him. But
Nestor Aparicio 04:47
we hasnโt been booed off the mound yet this
Luke Jones 04:49
year. Yeah, wow, yeah, so And But even you know, you look at Sundayโs game, how it played out, CNL, Perez comes out for the eighth inning because there are a couple. 50s do up and what happens? He issues a walk, right? I mean, you canโt, you canโt walk Casa in that spot, especially with Devers coming up right after him. You canโt have that from your top left hander in the bullpen. Now, they want Danny Coolum to be their top left hander in the bullpen, but heโs not back yet. Heโs not healthy yet. Heโs throwing heโs on his way back. It looks like heโll be back, hopefully, by mid to late September, but see now, Perez is the best they have from the left side, I guess, if, unless you want to throw Keegan Aiken out there and some higher leverage spots, because itโs certainly not Gregory Soto at the moment. So I thatโs where I look at this, and I just laugh when I hear people crush Brandon Hyde look we there was an instance a couple weeks ago where I took him to task on a couple decisions that I didnโt really understand, more specifically on the pinch hitting side, but just very few options that you have any trust in right now. I mean, itโs Craig Kimbrell is obviously the headliner, right? Because heโs making the money heโs got, the career that heโs had. They acquired, you know, they signed him in the off season to be the Felix Bautista replacement, even if guys like me were saying at the time that youโve got to understand what Craig Kimbrough is. Heโs not going to be rock solid, consistent for all six months of a season. Heโs going to go through some spells where he struggles. Now, whatโs alarming about the present one is this has gone on now as long as it has back in late April and early May, that was about two and a half weeks where, you know, he struggled. They took him out of the closer role, they put him into some lower leverage situations, seventh and eighth inning, and he got himself back on track, and then he was really good for the better part of the next couple months. But weโre now talking about him not just struggling, but really struggling for over a month now. And you know, they took him out of high leverage. He did have three or four outings where it looked better, and then it was right back to not looking good. And then to your point on Friday night where he gets booed off the mound, and
Nestor Aparicio 07:10
itโs thatโs a rare thing, right from a fan standpoint, youโve been at the ballpark all your life. I spent the 90s here calling our fan base wimps, because they kind of were, like the Yankees, and Red Sox would come in, we would roll back out. Everybodyโs afraid of the now our fans are, especially on Twitter, fighting with this guy that collects baseballs, trying to punch him out. I mean, the fan base has changed, and people were uppity last week about this Birdland, and they should be, you know, like pika is a Birdland holder, and he always tells me, I get discounts on beer. I get discounts. Itโs like a good deal. He brags to me about what a good deal it is. I donโt know anything, because Iโm all I get is the whistler telling me to shut up three months ago. So I havenโt, you know, I havenโt interacted with them. I havenโt been down to the ballpark. Youโre down there because I donโt feel welcome at the ballpark. Iโll be writing about that two weeks from now. Um, but the fans doing a home player. I mean, I Doug Jones, right? I mean, Iโm, Iโm trying to, thatโs the first one for a minute. Weโre talking 25 years ago. Man,
Luke Jones 08:16
yeah. And look, Iโm not going to get into whether you should or should not. I mean, look, heโs really struggled thereโs saying
Nestor Aparicio 08:25
Iโm not, oh no, no, I understand. Iโm just saying itโs a rare, rare occurrence for our fan base to beat up one of the home players. Theyโre used to. Beating up the Venezuelan sports journalists is what theyโre used to.
Luke Jones 08:35
Yeah. I mean, and especially when you go through the leanest of the lean times, and more specifically, more recently, with the Elias era, with the rebuild. I mean, youโre booing guys that you know arenโt really major league players, and theyโre just placeholders, right? I mean, so you donโt see too much of that, and again, not even getting look. Fans are frustrated. I understand it. I mean, the Orioles are paying Craig Kimbrell a lot of money, and heโs not doing the job. Heโs not even doing half of that job, right? I mean, even, even if he was giving them some solid innings in the seventh inning or Friday night, great example. I mean, theyโre, theyโre trailing in a game, and he comes in and, you know, youโd like to see him keep it at a two run deficit, but because your offense was scoring a lot of runs on Friday night, and instead, he turns it into a bigger deficit, because he canโt get anyone
Nestor Aparicio 09:25
out. You call the low leverage when he comes in two runs down, because itโs not ninth inning, you one run ball game or whatever, but itโs still high leverage when you know youโre you have a chance to help them win, and you you make it a loss. I mean, I mean youโre teetering on that Well, I
Luke Jones 09:42
mean, youโre losing. So itโs not high leverage, but, yeah, itโs not mop up duty either, right? Itโs a situation where you have to, youโve got to contribute something. And this is where Iโll, Iโll stick up for Brandon Hyde a little bit, because you canโt just wait for it to be 10 to one. If youโre going to pitch Craig Kimbrel, you. Gregory Soto, and they just added Colin Selby, right? He took on. He replaced, replaced Kade Povich. You know, who made the spot start? I mean, those are clearly three guys that they have no level of trust in in a meaningful situation. Now, they basically have three guys, at least in Brandon Hydeโs mind that he trusts, ideally in tight games, you know, if everyoneโs rested, and we saw it on Sundays, Perez Cano and Sir Anthony Dominguez. Now what it is on August 20, itโs what it is. They have a higher level in Burt Smith now than they did a couple weeks ago. And I think they trust Bert Smith more than Craig Kimbrell right now. But how much do you really trust him just yet? Right? And heโs pitched well to his credit. You know, heโs done a nice job for them at a time where theyโve had, you know, theyโre missing some guys and other guys arenโt pitching.
Nestor Aparicio 10:53
Webb came around this time last year and pitched well until pitched the way heโs pitching, quite frankly, right, right? And the same role in the same Hey, we need to sixth or seventh inning. Come in and get us to the seventh get us
Luke Jones 11:04
Yeah, and thatโs the thing, but pitching well in the sixth or the seventh is a little bit different than on some nights, needing to see if he can do it in the eighth inning, for example, because you canโt pitch Dominguez and Cano and even Perez, who, you know, has we kind of were viewing CNN Perez as though heโs been great this year, and he hasnโt been right. Itโs been up and down for him. But you canโt pitch those same guys. Youโve got to pass the baton around a little bit, and thatโs where you look at Bert Smith, and Iโll even throw Keegan Aiken out there, who, frankly, if you look at Keegan Aikenโs numbers, and I know when heโs not at his best, it can look kind of ugly, and Iโm not saying heโs great, and Iโm not saying I have a great, a high level of trust in Keegan Aiken, but he does strike people out. He does have a three, six era. He has, at times, pitched in not extremely high leverage, but heโs pitched in some tight games and has done the job at times. But heโs your fourth or fifth best reliever right now. And if youโre in that top four or five, youโve got a pitch. If youโre in the bullpen at all, youโve got a pitch. Itโs like I said, you canโt just wait for 10 to one, winning or losing to pitch Kimbrel. So
Nestor Aparicio 12:16
pitch in New York the next couple nights. We just got to figure out where itโs going to
Luke Jones 12:20
be. Heโs right, and again, that doesnโt mean heโs going back to pitching in the ninth inning in a safe situation. I mean, at this point, you know, heโs got to get on a roll. I mean, same with Soto I mean theyโve got to show some semblance of being able to do that at the same time, if youโre trailing by a couple runs and youโve had a stretch where your starters arenโt going quite as deep, even though the Orioles got good starting pitching over the weekend, save for Corbin burns, which, of course, was odd. But you know, even with those stretches, you know, youโre still gonna have to cover two or three innings every night. I mean, thatโs just, thatโs the state of where we are right now. I mean, even the best starting pitching in baseballโs not going more than six or seven innings most nights, because thatโs kind of, itโs kind of what the how itโs set up at this point in time. But theyโve got to, theyโve got to find a way to get, you know and hides talked about this over the weekend. Youโve got to try to get Craig Kimbrel back on track. I mean, you do it. And I know people will say at some point in time, well, at some point you have to cut your losses. But okay, but who are you bringing up then from triple A that you feel has even a fraction of the track record or potential upside and look, Kimbrel has been awful for a month now. Iโm not going to sit here and sugarcoat that at the same time, from mid May until early July. Their Orioles fans ticked off that he didnโt make the all star team, right? I mean, that wasnโt that long ago. He pitched that well. So youโve got to try to find a way to keep giving, picking your spots and giving them chances to work his way back into the mix again, and with hopes that he can look more like that guy again, because theyโre going to need that. I mean, theyโre going to need it from someone now. It might be Jacob Webb coming back in the next week to 10 days, and he looks like Jacob Webb again. And that will help. Certainly youโre hoping Danny coulomb comes back next month and looks like Danny coulomb, because we remember how good he was for the Orioles last year, how good he was until June this year, and how important he is, and someone whoโs a lefty but gets lefties and righties out. So there, there is some potential help and reinforcements on the way, but in the meantime, youโre still hoping to get something out of Craig kimbre. Youโre still hoping to get something out of Gregory Soto, whoโs got a good arm, and you know, weโre talking about guys that are former All Star closers. Now, in the case of Kimbrel, maybe this is the end of the line for him. And as Iโve said over and over and over, for anyone whoโs shocked by this, go look at his last six, seven years in the majors. Heโs been up and down. I mean, youโll see even season era. Would reflect that. So this wasnโt shocking to me. At the same time, this has been a longer period of struggle for him than weโve seen, you know, in recent years, from Craig Kimbrell. So you know, it might be that age 36 maybe this is getting to be the end of the line for him, but Iโm not there yet in terms of saying DFA him, because who else are you bringing up? I mean, do we think Dylan Tateโs going to be a factor, you know, if you bring him back from triple A? I mean, I just, I donโt see anyone thatโs at triple A right now that I really have much conviction about that. I think is going to be able to really help them and move the needle at all more than taking my chances, trying to pick my spots with Craig Kimbrel, trying to pick my spots with Gregory Soto in hopes of getting them back on track. Iโm not saying itโs going to happen. Nestor, and itโs unsettling, believe me, itโs very unsettling. You know, if youโre trying to name your postseason roster right now, I mean, is Craig Kimbrough even on it, right? I mean, thatโs how bad itโs been. But at the same time, he, at least, you know, not that long ago, was on a run where he had pitched really well, and youโre still hoping that he can find that again. But as Brandon Hyde said, yeah, you can pick your spots and try to keep them out of high leverage or even medium leverage as much as you can, but at the same time, you canโt hide people. You know, in an eight man bullpen, in this day and age, youโve got to have six or seven of them are going to have to pitch in some meaningful situations. You might have one guy that you can hide, but you certainly canโt hide two or three, which is where they are right now. So, so, yeah, as much as youโd love to pitch Dominguez and Cano every single night, they canโt do that. So some other guys are going to have to step up. But boy, itโs just, itโs really been, I mean, struggle is the nice word to use as it pertains to what Kimballโs looked like over the last month. But I Iโm not ready to give up on it and give up on him just yet from a roster standpoint. And obviously, when someoneโs making $13 million and thereโs six weeks to go, thatโs still a lot of money that heโs owed, but Iโm still looking at it. Iโm still trying to look at it as much as I can as an upside play to try to get him back on track, but the trust level is just not there when even on Friday night, when he comes in, down to and he canโt even keep the game where itโs at, where it is at that point in time, and give your offense a chance to come back. I mean, thatโs itโs a really low bar when you canโt even trust him to do that much. But you know, itโs where he is right now. Itโs where Gregory Soto is right now, and itโs very unsettling. Luke
Nestor Aparicio 17:47
Jones is here. He is Baltimore, Luke. And you know, I guess going back to evaluating the trades of the trading deadline, weโll have plenty of time for that in the off season, but in the meantime, I wasnโt going to evaluate it on Thursday when he dealt for Eflin, or on Saturday, you know, when the trade started to happen. But you looked at the pieces, and you looked at what we considered, I would say, wholesale changes, but certainly far more changes around the fringe of the roster than maybe, maybe we thought a team that was at that point looked like they were going to win 105 108 games was headed toward right. But all these changes, itโs amazing. Three weeks in, as you look at it, we knew Kimball was in trouble. Itโs good thing they have Sir Anthony right now, right? Like itโs a good thing they have him Zach Eflin. Good thing they have him right now, right? And we talk about Suarez, we can praise him all day long. Good thing they did that. Rogers, I listen right now. Heโs made three, four starts, right like it is. Heโs going to be here a couple of years. Weโll see where that value is over the long term of all of this. But for Jim Palmer to say he did a nice job at the trading deadline, doesnโt feel that way when theyโre treading water, winning one, losing one, winning one, losing one, but when effluent takes the ball, or when Sir Anthony comes in in the ninth inning and can get them out of it, even if he does give up a solo rum run. But Soto was supposed to be part of this, and Rogers was supposed to be part of this in some sort of contributory way. You know, I think Eloy Jimenez was another guy that had a couple of, you know, big hits and helped them, at least in the early on. Heโll be a right handed bat they have now i i Give him a you gave him a b minus at the trading deadline. Maybe, I mean, I would almost move it up to a b plus or an A minus if effluents gonna take the ball every fifth day like this, because that unto itself is a savior for them. Yeah, well, him and and Dominguez. Like I said, Dominguez has been their best reliever. I mean, heโs their closer. Heโs their closer. He had a four out sable on Sunday, and when they made the deal, they thought it was going to be Soto, I guess is my point. I think when I looked at it, I thought Sotoโs the guy here that is going to be a game changer for them. Heโs going to be an eighth inning guy setting up Kim role, is what I thought a month ago. I. I thought Soto would be the more effective of the two.
Luke Jones 20:04
Okay, um, I, I mean, I kind of viewed them through similar, you know, a similar lens. I mean, ensemble, yeah, yeah. I mean, and donโt get me wrong, Iโm not sitting here saying that I expected Dominguez to become their closer as the way he kind of has, but at the same time, one thing that I did like about the Dominguez trade was go look at his postseason numbers and go look what he did for the Phillies two years ago in the postseason. I mean, itโs a guy whoโs pitched in some really big spots and pitched really well in the postseason, whereas Soto came in in Philadelphia last year, and you know, it was a disappointment. You know that he was an all star closer in Detroit at a time when the Tigers werenโt very good. So, you know, you can always get into same way John means was an all star five years ago. Was he really, truly an All Stars? Or is he that teamโs rep? But point is, Soto was really good in Detroit, not so good in Philadelphia. So, you know, so and thatโs fine. Iโm not saying youโre wrong and feeling that way. I think they were both upside plays, right? I think there were two guys that you saw that we talked about, guys like me have talked about a lot, that this bullpen needed more swing and miss, more strikeout potential, and there were certainly two guys who brought that. Now, Dominguez has delivered, you know, he struck out three in the ninth inning on Sunday. You know, heโs struck out more than a batter parenting since arriving in Baltimore, and heโs pitched, well, I also understand and this. Iโm saying this as a Sir Anthony Dominguez guy, part of the reason he wasnโt in Philadelphia anymore is heโs kind of been that up and down guy, you know, maybe not as dramatic as Craig what weโre seeing with Craig Kimbrell in 2024 but heโs also been a guy that, at times, has been inconsistent, so weโre going to have to see how it plays out. I mean, itโs frustrating in the case of Soto, because, you know, they gave up Seth Johnson, who not going to sit here and say, was an amazing prospect, but was still one of their, you know, an interesting arm that they acquired in the tremancini deal a couple years ago and had Tommy John surgery, and I think is still someone who has a chance to be a major league pitcher, albeit maybe in a relief role eventually. But you know, point is they gave up something real for him in the same way that the Orioles gave up something real in Austin Hayes. But we know Austin Hayes wasnโt in the same role that he had been in to get Dominguez. But, you know, Dominguez has been really good Soto, not so good. You know, is there same thing with Kimbrel, youโre trying to pick your spots with Soto to try to get him on track, because he is someone that is capable of pitching at a high level and has the stuff to do it. But you canโt sit here and just have these guys on scholarship either. I mean, thatโs whatโs so challenging for Brandon high, because you donโt want to run Dominguez and Cano and Perez and I canโt believe Iโm saying this, but Bert Smith and Keegan Aiken into the ground by not, you know, by pitching them in the close games and then saving these guys from mop up duty. Because you donโt always, youโre not always going to have pop up duty. You know,
Nestor Aparicio 23:05
thereโs a three two game in the fifth inning happening every night, bro,
Luke Jones 23:09
right? Exactly. And thatโs the thing, if itโs three to two in the fifth inning and your and your starters hit his pitch count or is looking like heโs laboring and canโt go much longer, you know you canโt pitch Dominguez in the sixth inning because, well, if
Nestor Aparicio 23:23
your bullpens completely rested and you have everybody available and picked starter a burns whoeverโs out of gas in the fifth inning, because theyโre at 97 pitches or whatever, what is the Where do you go if you have to navigate three to Five of these relief pitchers all healthy on any given night against a real offense. Call Houston this weekend. Yeah, right. Like, what is ideal and what is October ideal at that point?
Luke Jones 23:51
I mean, whatโs ideal in the present as itโs currently constructed? Itโs those five guys that I mentioned that. Okay, Dominguez at the back, Cano at the back, you know, CNL, Perez, if itโs a pocket of lefties. But we saw even on Sunday eighth inning, two lefties do up to begin the inning, and he walks one and gives up a double to Devers, right? I mean, so youโre even seeing it with him. Burt Smith in the sixth or seventh inning. Keegan akin in the sixth or seventh inning. Gregory Soto mop up duty right now. Craig Kimbrell mop up duty right now. And you know what weโll see about Colin Selby, who didnโt exactly have great numbers at Norfolk since the Orioles acquired him in a one of those deals for cash. You know, 5567, weeks ago, whatever it was. So itโs not ideal in terms of October, my goodness. I mean, youโve heard me say, how many different times now you need how many relievers that you feel really, really strongly about using in just about any spot, at least four, ideally, five, right? And Iโm talking about four or five guys that you can throw at any point depending on the match. Show they have two right now that I I feel good about Dominguez, and Iโm still gonna give Cano the benefit of the doubt, you know. And Sunday struggles aside, again, heโs still been way more good than bad. But Cano, in an ideal world, might be my fourth or fifth rather than my second. And thatโs, you know, thatโs where youโre looking at this thing and saying, Boy, you hope Jacob Webb looks like Jacob Webb when he comes back. And how you kind of realize how important heโs been to them in 2024, and, you know, Iโve been a Jacob Webb guy this year, kind of pointing out how valuable heโs been. And youโre praying that Danny coulam comes back and looks like Danny Coulomb. Because if he does, then heโs a guy that in October, that I trust and feel really good about, you know, based on what heโs done the last two years. So Craig Kimbrel, theyโve got what, realistically speaking, about a month to try to get him back in order. And not saying that, even if they do that, Iโm going to have 100% trust in Him, but Iโm still going to have to go with it. Same with Soto, you know, youโre trying to get these guys on a roll. Youโre trying to see what works, you know, Drew French and the, you know, pitching, pitching coaches are working behind the scenes, trying to get them back on track. You know, because you need it. You know, as as this, bullpens presently constructed, no, I donโt like their chances to go deep in October whatsoever. You know, I see the same thing everyone else does. Iโm not trying, gonna try to put a positive spin on it. You know, Dominguez looks October ready. Cano, I think is October, you know, will be October ready, right? I mean, at least in that top four or five after that, itโs, I have no idea, you know. I mean, Bert Smith, is he ready to to be in some higher leverage situations? Maybe, you know, heโs been, heโs been better than I expected. You know, heโs done a nice job. You know, maybe heโs this yearโs version of Jacob Webb, but he hasnโt proven that yet. So, I mean, itโs tough. I mean, even look at this series, the two games that the Orioles won. You know, with Eflin pitching the way that he did on Thursday night and Suarez DOING what He did on Sunday. You it still felt dicey in the final winnings, and that was even with the Brandon Hyde being able to use his top guys. I mean, it just nothing feels easy right now. Even in games where theyโre they have a three or four run lead, it just does not feel easy whatsoever. And thatโs why itโs such a tough place to be. Thatโs why itโs why, you know, we spend so much time talking about the offense, despite the fact that itโs still one of the best in baseball, and saying, hey, you need to be more consistent, because youโre certainly not getting that consistency from your pitching staff right now. So itโs hairy, itโs dicey. It is unsettling. Thatโs the nicest term I can use to describe it, because you look at where this bullpen, where this pitching staff, has been since the beginning of July, and you know, itโs bottom five, bottom six in baseball. I mean, it just is, you know, and thatโs not even a
Nestor Aparicio 27:59
series like that. Iโm sorry. I mean, you canโt navigate October that way. You canโt.
Luke Jones 28:05
They have to be, of course. This is all about projecting right now, right? But this is all about trying to figure out, trying to get Craig Kimbrell back on track, trying to get Soto on a roll, trying to see if thereโs a more consistent version of Cano, like I said with Cano. I mean, I understand people say, Well, you canโt bring them in with
28:25
runners on base. Itโs like
Luke Jones 28:27
Brandon Hyde canโt if everyone has, like, this special condition, you know. And some of this is, you know, we havenโt touched on this quite as much. But when you look at some of their relievers that are, you know, kind of platoon dependent, right? I mean, Cano hasnโt been awful against left handed hitters, but certainly is better against right handers than lefties. You know, Perez, weโve talked about him, and you know how he is against right handed hitting, you know? I mean, heโs bet, obviously, better against lefties, but, you know, with the three batter minimum that we have with with relief pitching in 2024 I mean, you canโt afford to have all these guys that are just so split dependent, right? I mean, youโve got to have guys that can defend themselves against either side of the plate. So I donโt have the answers Nestor other than theyโve got to try to keep picking their spots with Kimbrel, picking their spots with Soto in hopes of getting them back in order. Because I just, I donโt know, like, whatโs the upside at triple A that you feel better about? I just, I donโt know who that is. I really donโt, I donโt think itโs still in Tate. I just donโt, and Iโm not trying to pick on him individually, but you know, I start
Nestor Aparicio 29:39
trading Kimbrough for him right now, right? In regard, no
Luke Jones 29:43
especially understanding he would have to lose Kimbrel right now. Iโll say this, and I kind of joked about this privately with a couple of my friends over the weekend. You know, I think back to the story of aldmeda stepping in a pothole a decade ago, right? I. Are we getting to a point where something like that for Craig Kimbrel to kind of give him a reset? You know, you put on the IL for two weeks, not going to sit here and say, Absolutely not. Iโm not saying that you can just conjure an injury,
Nestor Aparicio 30:14
then youโre going to bring him back in the middle of the pennant race on
Luke Jones 30:16
September 10, and thatโs the thing, right? So how do you, how do you navigate that? I
Nestor Aparicio 30:20
mean, itโs not like he doesnโt know that he is more veteran than anybody on this team at pitching in these situations, right? Exactly.
Luke Jones 30:27
And you know, thatโs where we get into Friday night. And look, Iโm not, Iโm not going to sit here and bash the fans. I mean, fans are frustrated. I get that. Heโs making $13 million and heโs not doing his job at the same time as Iโm around this, you know, as Iโve been around this long enough, these guys know when theyโre struggling. Do I think that really helps the player motivate? I mean, maybe it might motivate some guys, you know, and weโve all heard guys that have been asked about being booed, and theyโd say, Yeah, Iโd boo me too, you know. Does that motivate some guys?
Nestor Aparicio 30:55
I like to think of myself as Terrell Suggs. I sort of like being booed. You know what? I mean, maybe, maybe. But point is, I
Luke Jones 31:02
donโt if Craig Kimbrel needs to hear booze from the fans, and thatโs the magic trick to get him back on track. Then Iโve seen it all. You know, he knows the Orioles know, but, but again, if youโre trying to massage this situation to get him in a place where you can trust him again. You know, even if itโs just it might just be that, Sir Anthony Dominguez, you hope, you pray, you cross your fingers, all that you hope that he continues to be as effective as heโs been, and if he does, he might just be the closer the rest of the year. But at the very least, can you get Craig Kimbrel back to a point where you can trust him in the seventh inning, if you can trust him in the eighth inning, you know, even if itโs not becoming the closer again, Iโll take that at this point. And you know, forget about the money. You know, itโs a sunk cost at this point, right? Youโre paying them either way. So can you at least get him back to a point where you can trust him in some close games? Because theyโre going to need more of that. Going to need more of that. Again, it canโt just be Dominguez Cano and CNL Perez. And again, I keep mentioning Perez as though heโs earned this great deal of trust, but itโs kind of where they are, you know, itโs the best of the rest at this point in time. I mean, thatโs where they really are with their bullpen. So there arenโt great options. And yeah, they need Webb and they need Danny coulomb and yes, they need itโs going to be impossible for me to have confidence that theyโre going to make a deep run. If they canโt at least get one of Kimbrough and Soto back on track. Ideally, you get them both back on track, and theyโve got upside, and theyโve closed games and pitched in postseason and all that. But if they donโt, at least get one of those guys to a point where you can trust them in higher leverage, then itโs really difficult for me to envision this going well even forget about October, talking about September and holding and being able to edge out the Yankees for the division and all that. So it sounds flippant, because I know, I know people, you know, fans want a pound of flesh when, when things arenโt going well, right? But I really donโt know if they have much of a choice other than just to continue to do what theyโve been doing, which is, try to pick your spots. Try to, you know, in the case of Soto, if itโs a sixth inning and itโs, you know, not a blowout, but not a two to one game, you know, you if thereโs two or two out of three lefties or do up, you know, you try to put him in that spot and see how he does, but you also have to have someone ready to replace him. And you know, same with Kimber in some of these spots. So itโs not ideal, and itโs not something thatโs inspiring much confidence, but itโs where they are right now, and thatโs why we keep coming back to boy. They better hit the ball. They better hit the ball. They better hit the ball. Because you just look at the state of this pitching staff, and they are just not deep enough, rotation wise, or especially bullpen wise, as it stands, as weโre going into these final what, 11 or 12 days of August. All right,
Nestor Aparicio 34:01
Iโm gonna move the conversation your direction, that youโre not all you donโt always love this one. Itโs more of an off season thing for ticket sales and where they are and the positioning of the brand. I have not has Katie Griggs made herself known to you or anybody else? I mean, is she been a part of the media thing?
Luke Jones 34:18
I donโt, I mean, and obviously, with me doing double duty, Iโm not, youโre not there all the time for every minute, but I donโt believe so Nestor. I mean, I donโt you know if she hasnโt
Nestor Aparicio 34:29
greeted everybody in the back of the press box or done any of that. So I donโt even know, physically in Baltimore, I donโt know anything about Katie Griggs, other than they hired her and Iโve read her resume. Um, sheโs got her hands full. I mean, you got a team here since second year of being really good, really competitive and winning, they have television problems all the way around with mass and they have a new ownership. I see things that theyโre changing. And if I were writing about this, I see they have put, um, a camera on a string around the base of the state. If theyโre getting new angles for television, thatโs
Luke Jones 35:02
great, by the way, just seeing that in the press box and seeing the I commend them on that, because thatโs some of the best production Iโve seen from massen. So that I do like because Iโve
Nestor Aparicio 35:13
seen, yeah, I please, I interrupt you all the time. Um, so Iโm watching it on television because I have been abused by the new people, and Iโm I will be writing about this in the next two weeks before Labor Day, as you labor and I sit here watching the games on TV as a radio station owner, a lifetime local journalist, and everybody seems to think thatโs okay. Itโs not okay. Wouldnโt be okay if they did it to you would be okay if they did it the bo small wouldnโt be okay. If they did it to Jerry Coleman, it wouldnโt be okay. So all of that being said, Iโm watching it from $65 come see us all month, right? For two months, 130 bucks. You go every night. You donโt get a seat, but thereโs plenty of seats to be had. My boy, Ozzy Hazel was in one of them, and I featured him on Sunday because heโs probably the biggest sports fan Iโve ever met. Iโve ever known whoโs still there. They put him on television, and Jim Palmer doesnโt know who he is. And Iโm like, thatโs kind of a shame that Jim Palmerโs never met. Ozzy doesnโt know who the real fans are, like Ed Lauer, the guys that are out there every day, not the press box, people like you that are there free. Get paid to be there. You know, get free part. Iโm talking about people that pay and go every night and buy concessions and get on a bus, a plane, a train, park their car, all of the ancillary, let alone go off to Toronto or Tampa and put the Baltimore B hat on with the floppy hat that, apparently, you got me a couple of weeks ago that I didnโt really want, but Iโll take it. Iโll wear it. Um, I see a lot of empty seats. I see the Red Sox in town. I see on nights when they bobblehead, a lot of people are there. I had some flippant conversations in Ocean City with people who are Oriole fans, who were mistreated by Angelos in regard to government, who come up to me in different ways and say things. And I had a really sort of off the cuff conversation over, like, the third beer secrets on maybe Thursday night with an old friend, and I said I was I was a dick. And Iโm like, what are they going to grow the brand? They have a great team. They have great young players. They do run the bases. They do. Kids are free. They do. Hereโs a bobblehead. Hereโs another bobblehead. They do. Hereโs a selfie. Day. Their television production is K Fay. It is, itโs, itโs almost laughable in the way that ravens media is. Itโs just so much cheerleading and so much all the social medias that way. In regard to sports teams, itโs itโs become usurped while sports writers who criticize them, or fans that are pissed at Craig Kimball or wherever that is. But the the bottom line is revenue. The bottom line is intro, Iโm interested in the Orioles. They havenโt gotten a nickel out of me. Didnโt even get any money that day. I went down and sat in the box seats because I got the tickets for free. And other people and other people bought me beer, thinking maybe I did buy a beer earlier this year because I wanted to honor Mr. Rubenstein, until I met his people, and then I stopped spending money, and my wife stopped watching, and sheโs on the hiking and breaking her ankle and doing other things. Iโm 55 years old. Iโm not going to go down there and be mistreated, but Iโm a media guy whose last nameโs Aparicio, and Iโm the pariah and the free the birds guy and the anti Greg Bader and Auntie Jennifer grandall, although Iโve never met her and never spoken to her, so all of this being said, Thatโs my ax. But I sit here and I watch it on TV and say theyโre really good. Theyโve had all year to sell tickets. The Red Sox arenโt down. The Red Sox usually take up 1012, 15,000 tickets. I know their brand has been in decline ahead Dan Shaughnessy on last week about that this is their time to grow. Itโs not October when theyโre charging $400 for playoff tickets and then youโre only going to get rich people. Ozzy canโt afford that. My girl, Melanie and Don talk has been a season ticket order for 30 years. She couldnโt afford playoff tickets last year, so somebody else will be in those seats in the playoffs, and theyโll sell them, and itโll be, God forbid, they have empty tickets for playoff games. I donโt think that could possibly happen. Uh, it happens in other places, but I donโt think it could possibly happen here, but there is a price point for them to really piss off their Birdland membership people. Iโm not one of them. I mentioned pika earlier. Heโs one of the few people that Iโve ever had a conversation with ever in my life about Birdland memberships or discounts, and itโs only because I went to opening day with pika, and he was telling me, I go over there and I get my beer for that. I go over there and I get a discount. I use my points, and I can get a free ad or a ball or like, I donโt know, Iโm Marriott reward member Southwest Airlines, and I know the value of all that and credit card, but Iโve never examined the Birdland thing because Iโve never thought about giving them a nickel, let alone giving them $1 because of the way Iโve been treated from the old group to the new group. That being said, I watched this. I wonder when the there is going to get there. And itโs going to really get built and be as mature as it needs to be, because when fans are getting nickel and dime for $1 here or $2 there, thatโs how theyโre keeping Adley rutschman. Thatโs how theyโre keeping gunner Henderson, they need to generate revenue from you, the public, the fans, everybody needs to go give them a lot of money in one way or another, whether itโs cable television, whether itโs buying a tchotchke, whether itโs going down there to eat boobs barbecue. Happy birthday, Boog, Iโm honoring you number 26 of 26 oysters. But do you feel like itโs growing or do you feel like itโs plateaued in a point where everybody who was ever an Orioles fans run back because theyโre good now theyโre good. Iโve run back. Iโm watching them every night and giving them money. And thereโs a lot of people like me that could sit here and watch the games on TV and never go down there and still be very supportive of the team. But just the optics are one thing. The revenue is the most important thing, because at the end of the day, this Birdland membership thing last week was about somebody recalibrating, oh, weโre good. We can charge him more. And Iโm thinking, dude, I grew up in Dundalk. I mean, Iโm Iโm ball, I Iโm as Dutch Ruppersberger once said heโs real bomber. I donโt know where this moneyโs coming from. And that was my thought to you. That was my thought that Kurt battenhausen is weโre talking about franchise values, because this teamโs really good, and they need to grow this thing, and they canโt wait till next year to do it. This is it. They, theyโve, theyโve got peopleโs attention. I was down at Secrets Oriole hats. They got peopleโs attention. Now, when are they going to get their money?
Luke Jones 41:37
Yeah, I mean a couple things. And full disclosure, I have not studied the Birdland membership information and price points and all that into all I
Nestor Aparicio 41:46
know is everybodyโs pissed off. So it must be something. These are the fans who are the biggest fans.
Luke Jones 41:50
Correct? Yes, correct. So I couple things. Look, prices are always going to go up in anything, right? Prices are going to go up. However, when thereโs a price increase coupled with a diminishing of what you are getting, which is what I understand. A lot of people seem to be upset. Iโve seen multiple people, whether itโs just on my social media, a couple articles Iโve seen, you know, whether there was a banner or the sun, whatever, people that have mentioned that. Look, I understand that Iโm going to pay a little bit more. But then when you reduce my discount in concert with that, itโs the same thing as, like, when people are ticked off at the grocery inflation and tax, yeah, exactly. Or, or the bag of chips is more expensive, and I look at it, and the bagโs gotten smaller also. So itโs inflation and shrinkflation, right? So, you know, when you hear some of that stuff. So I so I think thatโs, you know, thatโs part of it. I think there is absolutely a big picture, you know, tug of war going on here, where you say, You know what look I stuck with you. I was there even when fans came back in 2021 and I was there at the beginning of 22 I was there back in 2018 and 19 and more. So specifically 19 because 18, they actually tried to win. That was, that was the mistake at the end of the
Nestor Aparicio 43:05
video. Paid to watch Rio Ruiz play their face. You were there, right? So
Luke Jones 43:10
thereโs a thought with that. When you say, look, I gave you money in 19, not 20, because of covid, 2122 I gave you guys money then you were, you deliberately were not trying to win at that point. Yes, they, they didnโt enter tanking in terms of, they were really good and then got really bad on purpose, because we know that it completely fell apart. But they did nothing to push that process along at the major league level in terms of getting better, in terms of spending money on veteran players or anything like that. You know, we know that understood as a paying customer who was still supporting the team financially at a time when they were not trying at the major league level, theyโve gotten good. Thatโs great. Iโve enjoyed it. I understand at some point in time that the prices were going to go up. But where is your where is the commitment from ownership in the front office to ensure that my money is going to be well spent in terms of an extension for a gunner Henderson, or maybe more in the more immediate letโs talk about Anthony Santander on maybe a three or four year contract for him that we wouldnโt have talked about three months ago. Where is the commitment when it comes to something along those lines, to say, Hey, youโre going to be charging more money, but we weโve given gunner Henderson a contract extension. Well, the
Nestor Aparicio 44:31
crazy thing is, theyโre charging more money, and the understanding between you and I is Corbin burns isnโt going to be her opening day next year. Theyโre gonna, theyโre gonna, theyโre not gonna go with an opening day. Theyโre gonna go with the strip state shrimp station going, theyโre good. I mean, I like them. Theyโre fine, but theyโre not filet mignon and, um, you know, and because we donโt pay for that here, we canโt, we canโt afford that. Weโre small market. We are. We gonna afford this if we donโt afford so this shell game. And this guy, Rubinstein for the hats, and Mr. Dancy and Mr. Magoo running around and all that. Dude, I have you under review. You and the Whistler, youโre all under review, like my press credential, and Iโm reviewing this with the public right now, and Iโm concerned. And my flippant friend who loves the Orioles, he says theyโre not gonna grow the brand. Itโs an old white peopleโs game. And he looked around everybody hereโs old and white. Heโs talking about the politicians that were in the room. Theyโre watching the baseball game. Go down the street and see whatโs going on down, you know, anywhere else in Ocean City where young people are and other people have other things to do. And I thought about this from the ocean city standpoint. I thought, when youโre Ocean City and you charge too much for a hotel room on Friday or Saturday night, the general notion is somebody else to come along and pay for it. So everybody loves the beach. Everybody loves the beach. Theyโll go down. Theyโll pay for it on fourth of July weekend, upcharging all of that, paying a little bit more to convenience store, which weโre all, can weโre all but there are, is not an unlimited amount of baseball fans. Thereโs you and me and the people you see down there. They are the ones who love baseball and recruiting new people to baseball. Okay, Iโll hear that. I mean, my elementary schoolโs celebrating 100 years on Thursday, Colgate Elementary in the east side of town. My son still lives there. My son lives in the house my parents lived in. Heโs second generation Venezuelan and Hispanic living in a neighborhood. Heโs a gringo like me. Heโs living in a neighborhood where 72% of the people are Hispanic, and itโs a Hispanic sport. We talked about Suarez, we talked about Santa all these guys you want to give money to, theyโre all they all look like me and boxed out of the press box. By the way, Iโm the only Hispanic journalist here. So if youโre talking about a population that likes baseball, thereโs a Hispanic part here. Thereโs an African American part here that is non existent in their in their scope of fandom, except for Ozzy. You they put on television, they like to put the people of color and kids and, you know, people that donโt look like all white people on television to say, Hey, youโre welcome to thatโs great. You know that thatโs cool, but theyโre not coming, and theyโre not I donโt know if itโs interest price point. I hate downtown, all of the usual tropes. The bottom line is they should be growing their brand, and part of growing your brand isnโt scalping your own pissing off your own customers in the middle of a penny race like whatever they did, they didnโt piss me off. They pissed me off for 25 years, by the way they behaved, but theyโve angered their own people who are writing these checks, and theyโre the only ones that are going to write these checks. There are no fortune 500 companies here. They finally got T Rowe on board. It took them years to do that, and theyโre going to do a naming rights thing for the stadium, I guess, to try to get some revenue. But this is no longer Peter Angeloโs checking out and his goofy kid that weโve seen for years be goofy. This is now Major League Baseball coming in with these billionaires. I saw Eric get his own with ripkens kid this week I met that guy didnโt meet, didnโt get the guy that was given the free beer out when I met him. Now that being said, these are the people running this, and they donโt live here. And Katie Griggs is she didnโt know where Dundalk or Highland town is, and sheโs coming in here and relying on Greg Bader and Jennifer grandall and TJ Brightman to say, Well, what do we have? Whatโs the situation where our fans, we discounted this, we discounted that. We got a television problem. How are we going to do this? Weโll charge them more. Wow. Or letโs go find new fans. Well, I donโt even see him recruiting dude. I didnโt see a billboard on the way to the beach. I donโt see them doing anything outside of having Melanie Newman eat chips and and and and the games themselves, where the pregames Terrible, they have nothing, no programming all day, and theyโre theyโre catering to the people they have. And now, last week, they just said, weโre gonna give you less value and charge you more. Come on in, because it feels to me like they donโt know where the next 50 or 100,000 Oriole fans are coming from. And a couple of years into this, Iโm worried about them, about that, for them, on behalf of their ability, and their ability to step up and say, Weโre small market team Rubenstein. Three years now, weโre we bought a small market team. We only paid 1,000,000,007 for it. Weโre small market team. Sorry, gunner had to go play for the Dodgers. Well, and Scott Boris will be the bad guy. Iโm thinking like Angeloโs would think, well, 25 millions enough for Mr. Heโs agent. You know, like, itโs easy to do that when you donโt sign a player. The the Red Sox are doing that over bets right now? Well,
Luke Jones 49:42
I mean, a couple things that come to mind. I mean, kind of going back to what I said a few minutes ago. I mean, you had your base, small as it might be, but your base that was continuing to support the team, they were sold this idea that the money that was being. Being saved in terms of Major League payroll, yes, was being reinvested in other aspects of the organization. But we know that not all of that, you know, not all of a, what was once a $150 million payroll, goes into player development, right? Itโs
Nestor Aparicio 50:13
a, itโs amazing. You go down to Sarasota, and I havenโt been in there because Iโve been boxed out. I Iโve never had a media pass in Sarasota since they mean, theyโve been there 15 years, and Iโve never, never been allowed in ever, right? But I see that facility when I drop you off at the front door, because Iโm like, driving Mr. Luke, when Iโm in Florida, I drop you off at the front door, and you go into that building, and youโre like, hey, itโs really nice. And they spent, yeah, they spent the kind of money. They spent 3 million for. They spent nothing. They spent a backup middle infielder like I mean, but things are, they have improved things. I know thereโs no doubt about it, but improving the team is the ultimate capital expense to think about what itโs going to cost to sign any of these kids.
Luke Jones 50:54
So this is so this is where you start to run into the problem, though, specifically with the perception of fans, when you raise prices and you cut amenities in what youโre getting is there was a perception. And this is why people not and this isnโt a Baltimore thing. This is a major league baseball thing. This is why people, fans are leery me, media members are leery of these long term rebuilds because they sell it as though theyโre saving up this treasure, treasure chest in the meantime of rebuilding and focusing on player development and drafting and and growing arms, growing bats, not spending at the major league level, with the idea that when the time comes, youโll have all this money to augment and to retain your young stars, so youโre sold that, and Iโm not well here, itโs
Nestor Aparicio 51:44
even worse, because weโve had Angeloโs. I mean, weโve been lied to openly forever. Itโs a little different than the trust you would put in the St Louis Cardinals or even the Kansas City Royals, or some of these other friendly midway where ownerships been trying hard, maybe a little canโt get out of its own way. Ownership here has been derelict for a generation of horrific Ness, like all the way through. So these people have to be extra better, extra better. Like Mr. Rubenstein given out hats behind home, place like that, something. Itโs almost like Trump thrown at toilet paper down in Puerto Rico, like, Oh, thatโs nice. And it theyโre all about the Johnny Bravo optics. I mean, thatโs who they are. Thatโs what Iโm seeing from the Rubinstein people. Is everything has to be look good. It has to look good. Well, looking good and being good is different. You know what I mean? Well,
Luke Jones 52:37
and I will say, and this is where Iโll stick up for them a little bit. They have not owned the team for an off season, yet at the trade deadline, they did take on salary. Now, was this a salary to push it into top 10 payroll, or top 12 or even top half of the league payroll? No, of course not, but they took on Zach efflon contract next year, which I donโt think would have happened two years ago, with John A in charge. So there are signs of that. But again, youโre asking people to spend more and receive less, and there still hasnโt been that smoking gun. Oh my gosh. Look at the financial commitment that they just made. You know if gunner Henderson had been extended, if they had announced a contract extension for Anthony Santander for, I donโt know name your price point, three or $75 million before they announced to their but they
Nestor Aparicio 53:29
did put Tickets on sale for 130 bucks for the rest of the year. I thought the place, and they did not mobbed, but I thought like, oh, I mean, theyโll theyโll get the optics they want. Theyโll get asses in the seats. Theyโll be people in the upper deck. Thereโll be people there. And that didnโt feel the feeling for me over the weekend, like, like the way I thought it would, especially with college kids going back to school and whatnot, I thought, like, there would just be a lot of I thought people would start coming and make me wrong. Iโm not wrong. Iโm right. They they have and Iโm gonna write to the owners soon about all of this. Katie Griggs has a lot of work to do to undo damage caused by Angelos. The notion that weโre not a big market. We donโt have a lot of money. The fan base is limited. Thereโs a team in DC, the all. Thereโs a team in Philadelphia. You go up to Aberdeen and go past there, thereโs another team. So they have a this is a challenging economic environment for them, and especially challenge when they basically say you can come for almost free, for a couple bucks, for for one check will let you come for two months and sit anywhere you want. And the most important games of the year when the weatherโs good and people arenโt, people didnโt take advantage of that in the way that optically I thought they would. And I Iโve spoken to you for 11 months now, since last year, when my wife and I went down there for the clinch games last year, and there were 18, 20,000 people there. And I thought, itโs not the way it looked in major league in the movie, you know, night they clinched, the place got packed. Everybody came. You know, everybody wanted to be in on it. Everybody want to have that Delman young moment, you know what I mean? And you donโt have a lot of moments like that. Come on, man, youโve been watching, youโve been watching baseball your whole life, waiting for anything to happen ever like look, youโre, youโre still waiting to see a playoff win other than Delmon young, you know, so. But I would say those moments for fans, and just said it, though they havenโt had a moment. Okay, fair enough.
Luke Jones 55:25
You just said it. They havenโt won anything yet. And Iโve said this to you over and over, and Iโll continue to say it. This is a dial. Itโs not a light switch. When you have as much damage was done to their brand for as long as it was, people donโt come back overnight. I think, a good comparison right now. Couple things here. First of all, two years ago, when they first started getting to the point where they were respectable again, there were 23rd in attendance. They were averaging 17,000 people. Theyโre up to 28 so thereโs thereโs been growth now. Has it been amazing growth? Has it been earth shattering, shocking? Oh my gosh. This is a powder keg kind of growth. No, not at all. There are 18th in attendance. I think Iโd say a relative, relevant comparison right now is go look at what they were in 2014 a similar point that were two years into being good. 2014 was the peak of the buck Showalter era in terms of wins and losses on the field. And they got to the ALCS that year. By
Nestor Aparicio 56:29
the way, Master was printing money at that point too. I mean, they were very flush, sure, and they werenโt putting up the team. The money never went to the team. Iโll make that clear for anybody that knows that. I know, because of the poison pill, anything they gave themselves they would have to give to the nationals. But they were the angels family. Was very, very flush, feeling so good that they gave Chris Davis money, quite frankly, right? Sure.
Luke Jones 56:48
And we saw the payroll go up the following year, and they raised ticket prices, if you recall, and that probably that kind of, you know, they probably missed the mark there. And then, then it certainly didnโt help that wasnโt soon thereafter that they got bad again, and obviously. But you know, in 2014 they were 13th in attendance. They were at 30,800 was their average attendance. 2024 a decade later, at a similar point in time, in terms of theyโve been good for a couple years now, theyโre 18, 28,000 so you look at it, thatโs, you know, roughly 2500 people. Has that been what they lost, in terms of, you know, just that the five years of some of them are dead. I mean, like over 10 years, well, I mean, I, I
Nestor Aparicio 57:37
hear, you know, whatever, gone, just gone. There are
Luke Jones 57:41
still young people do like baseball. I mean, like, you know, thatโs like it enough to pay for it, and I Well, and thatโs fair, thatโs fair. But I think you look at all of these factors, and I think there needs to be sustainability here. They havenโt won anything yet. Weโve talked about this kind of with the rave weโre having, the conversation about the ravens, not so much in terms of attendance or anything like that. I mean, the Ravens have been what theyโve been for a quarter century now,
Nestor Aparicio 58:14
on Friday. So be careful. I
Luke Jones 58:15
donโt care. I donโt right, I donโt care about that. Though, you know, itโs preseason. Itโs not, not real, not you couldnโt give tickets away for that at this point in time. But in terms of the Orioles, like I said, itโs a dial. Has it? Has attendance improved? Has their following improved? Of course, it has, you know, couldnโt have gotten much worse than it was five years ago, especially throwing covid into the mix there and considering that. But theyโve got to continue that. Theyโve got to maintain. And thatโs why Iโve said to me, raising prices is one thing, or cutting back on the discount is is one thing, doing both in concert without having made that smoking gun. Oh my gosh, they just made a massive financial commitment in terms of extending gunner Anderson, or resigning Anthony Santander or extending Adley Ross, you know, pick. Take your pick. You know, whoever you want to pick in that conversation that, yeah, tick to tick some people off. And I can understand that. I certainly can do I think that itโs a fatal blow. Do I think that means they canโt continue to grow their their brand, no, but theyโve got to continue to work hard. And Iโve made the point to you. I said this a couple weeks ago. Houston Astros, theyโve had a decade now. Theyโve won championships. Theyโve been in the playoffs every year all of that. Go look at their promotion schedule. They do bobbleheads and all kinds of stuff all the time. I think thatโs part of what you just need to do in this day and age. Youโve got to incentivize people to come to the ballpark. In addition to the understood part of this, that is the biggest part of this, of itโs got to be a good product, itโs got to be a winning product, but you need bells and whistles. Whistles. And I think people will pay money for those bells and whistles, but you have to have bells and whistles to go with it. So theyโve got to continue to maintain that. And again, for these fans, for these Birdland memberships, for these people that have been their base, you know, the people that were out there in 2021 or 2019 when they were god awful, theyโve got to realize that theyโve got to continue to work hard to attract more people like that, and itโs a dial, and yeah, theyโre going to have to break through. Itโs going to be tough for them to get where they might want to go, from a brand vision standpoint, for them to not at least make a World Series at some point here in the next few years. Because you know, otherwise, then you get complacent, even as a fan base, you know, weโre Ravens. Thatโs, that was the point I was trying to make, the Ravens waiting for Lamar and this current era of ravens football to break through in January. You know, itโs not good enough just to get to the playoffs anymore, right? It isnโt. I
Nestor Aparicio 1:00:55
think if you asked, yeah, thereโs no game in October thatโs going to matter for them this year or right? Thatโs, thatโs a fact.
Luke Jones 1:01:01
Well, I mean, yeah, right, for the ravens, for the Orioles, all the games matter, and they got, theyโve got to break through. So look, this is, weโll continue to talk about this, because this is, thereโs a lot of meat on the bone here. But, yeah, I think for me, it was the double whammy of raising prices and lowering the perks. Yeah, that thatโs a double whammy that ticks people off when you havenโt won anything yet, when you havenโt truly made that. Oh my gosh. Look at the financial commitment they just made to resign gunner Henderson, or to resign Anthony Santander. You do those things before youโve done that. Thatโs where people, you know, their skepticism lingers. Not saying itโs all skepticism, but it lingers until until you show otherwise. Luke
Nestor Aparicio 1:01:42
Jones is covering all things Orioles baseball all week long. Iโm Nestor. Heโs Luke. We are W, N, S, T am 1570 Towson, Baltimore. We never stop talking Baltimore positive.