There is plenty to debate regarding the โnewโ Baltimore Orioles and an offseason with promise and hope for the franchise to take a major step forward under the ownership of David Rubenstein and the deft leadership of Mike Elias. That said, the Friday afternoon news dump of the Camden Yards left field wall and the lack of a free agency splash donโt feel like anything that will excite the fan base just yet.
Nestor Aparicio and Luke Jones discussed the Baltimore Oriolesโ offseason moves, including the decision to move the left field wall back. Jones defended the change, citing its necessity for a more neutral field, while Aparicio criticized the timing and transparency of the announcement. They also debated the Oriolesโ payroll strategy, with Jones arguing against high-priced free agents like Juan Soto and emphasizing the importance of a balanced approach. Aparicio expressed frustration with the teamโs historical frugality and the lack of a clear vision from new ownership. Both agreed on the need for better community engagement and transparency from the Oriolesโ front office. Luke Jones and Nestor Aparicio discuss the Baltimore Oriolesโ new ownership and strategic decisions. Jones emphasizes the importance of having knowledgeable management to avoid past mistakes like those of Peter Angelos. They debate the potential acquisition of Juan Soto, with Jones arguing that the Orioles already have promising young stars like Gunnar Henderson and Adley Rutschman. Jones criticizes the teamโs handling of social media and transparency, citing the move of the left field wall as an example of poor communication. Aparicio stresses the need for the team to be transparent and accountable, reflecting on the Oriolesโ past glory and the current challenges of fan engagement and player retention.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Maryland crab cake tour, Baltimore Orioles, left field wall, new ownership, payroll strategy, free agent signings, baseball offseason, Camden Yards, Mr. Splash, fan engagement, revenue projections, community trust, player development, market expectations, franchise vision, Juan Soto, Gunner Henderson, Adley Rutschman, new ownership, low expectations, social media, player marketing, St. Louis, Albert Pujols, World Series, fan base, transparency, accountability, empty seats, media pass
SPEAKERS
Luke Jones, Nestor Aparicio
Nestor Aparicio 00:01
Welcome home. We are W, N, S T, am 1570 Towson, Baltimore and Baltimore positive. We are taking the Maryland crab cake tour out on the road through the holidays. Weโre green mount station this week, and of course, next week, weโll be having turkey. And then after that, weโre going into December. Just gonna be a lot of crab cakes going on, so many crab cakes that Iโm actually going Iโm actually going to amici didnโt have a crab cake. They got a pine redundo. I gotta mix it up. They probably got some pumpkin cheesecake and some cannoli there, and some meatballs with gravy as well. But weโre doing, uh, weโre going to meet cheese. Weโre going to be at Cocos. Weโre going to be a Costas. Weโre going to be at fadelies. Weโre going to be at State Fair. Weโre going to be Cooperโs north so lots and lots of places, all of it brought to you by our friends at the Maryland lottery and Jiffy Lube, a multi care I was a Jiffy Lube live. Thatโs next summer. Luke Jones is here. Heโs live. We talk a lot of football around here. Weโll continue to talk Lamar and holiday and Thanksgiving and all of that, but the Friday News dump in and around Steelers week and no free agent signings with baseball, everybody can see, Iโm wearing my curio wellness orange and black off season gear here in in November, defense, dude, itโs almost a punch line. I donโt I donโt want to be mean. I donโt want to be judgmental about their science. And it feels like Greg Bader still running the place when theyโre doing Friday afternoon news dumps, having the GM run away from the fence, saying we made a big mistake. Donโt bring it up again. I I donโt know, dude, you get after it with the fence, because weโve talked about it a lot. I donโt know. I mean, itโs, um, itโs, itโs just funny to me. Itโs, itโs comical more than itโs functional. Well,
Luke Jones 01:51
I mean, first of all, itโs not something to be outraged about. Letโs be clear about that. And Iโm not saying youโre outraged. I thought from the moment I laid eyes on it on opening day, or it might have been the day before. They might have done a workout at the ballpark the day before, in 22 the first time I laid eyes on it. And Iโve said this to you. I mean, this is not anything new. My thought instantly was, there will be a course correction here. Theyโll find a happy medium at that point. Keep in mind the lease had not been officially signed. So my thought at that point was assuming there would be a lease, and there since has been one, of course, that when they did bigger, long term ballpark renovations, I thought that there would be a correction here, because you just looked at it and you said, this is massive. I mean, this is, you know, think of old Yankee Stadium, but pre 70s renovations, you think of Tiger Stadium in center field, like all the dude, if
Nestor Aparicio 02:47
you want to do anything in this city, thereโs a board of this and a oversight of that, and government. I mean, I guess when they did that a couple years ago, was Johnโs, like, weโll get more pitching, you know, like, I donโt know that there was a lot of pushback against whatever the idea was. And it hadnโt been John, right? I mean, John wanted to put his mark on everything without doing any work. But, or somebody came in and said, do it. But this is there. This was not 10 smart people and Janet, Marie Smith and architects looking at this. This was a whim. I mean, really,
Luke Jones 03:30
I disagree. I disagree. I Iโm not sure John Angelus would have had the wherewithal to think in those terms, right? I think this was Mike Elias, sigma Adele, people in baseball ops looking at what had been known for years. Nestor left. Fiona, Camden, yards needed to change. It absolutely did. When you cover games on a nightly basis, as Iโve had the privilege to do for close to 15 years now. Will be 15 years this coming year when you see the number of what feel like routine fly balls, what look like routine fly balls off the bat of an Orioles player or a visiting player in the middle of summer, and you see it shoot out to left or to the ridiculous gap in left center. That absolutely was something that needed to change. 364, youโre talking about, yeah, I mean, just low wall, all of that. I had no problem whatsoever with the idea of making it more neutral, however, where they overshot this, and where you look at it and say, Wow, again, as I said to you the first time I laid eyes on it at the beginning of the 22 season, I just thought thereโs no way itโs going to stay like this, right? I mean, thereโs no way it can be this deep. You know, this was an over correction. You donโt want this place to be a band box, but suddenly you donโt want it to be a place where no right handed hitter wants to play here, you you went from one problem in terms of attracting starting pitch. Is with all things being equal, and Iโm not. Iโm not making a blanket excuse for the Orioles in terms of paying free agent pitchers. It for the right price. You could have gotten anyone to come here, but all things being equal. Enable went to Colorado, right? If you want to look at it, however, as a tie breaker and say all things being equal, yeah, a lot of pictures. Looked at left field in Camden Yards and said, Am Iโm not eager to sign up for that. I definitely am not. So I never had a problem with it. But when you look at this and you say, now theyโre over, you know that theyโre correcting it. Theyโre finding a happy medium. Keep in mind the dimensions arenโt going back to the original dimensions. Letโs be very clear about that. Want to be fair, but you look at this and you make that change after just three seasons, it doesnโt look great from an esthetic standpoint. But for me, I guess my biggest gripe right now, and ultimately, weโre going to see how this plays out, and Iโm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. The Early indications are the club is paying for this as it pertains to what theyโre doing for 2025 now, I would assume weโre going to see long term, a vision for whatever theyโre going to do with that area, whether itโs to add seats back into it to make it look more like the original configuration in left field, in terms of wall and then fans immediately at that wall. Because right now, when you look and Iโm sure youโve seen the mock up of it as well. Youโve got this ugly gap now where you have a fence that is going to look more like it did before. However you youโre not going to have any seats, and youโre going to have this big gap now, and itโs going to look a little bit like what Comerica Park dealt with when that park opened. Keep in mind, that Park was much more cavernous, and they course corrected Citi Field with the Mets, they did the same thing, but that my pet peeve is, from a cosmetic standpoint, what are you going to do with that space if itโs just going to be empty for 2025 and youโre youโre telling me that the long term, you know, they make that into A party patio. They add seats back in. Maybe they put up on the big wall that will now not be the true wall for home runs. Maybe they put the numbers of their retired players there, as opposed to on the facing of the upper deck. Then Iโll hear that. But for 2025 for a ballpark that you market the heck out of in terms of being the ballpark that forever changed baseball, and being so beautiful and being a gem, left field looks ugly now. I mean, itโs going to look ugly. I mean, there are people who already didnโt like what this had looked like over the last few years compared to the original structure, the original configuration, the original
Nestor Aparicio 07:38
configuration had a crown gasoline sign on left field wall, sure,
Luke Jones 07:42
sure, but, but just in terms of the wall now, you are now going to have a shorter wall, and then the bigger wall that was created in 22 will still be there. For the time being. Theyโre putting the platform up for Mr. Splash and left center whatever on that. But it looks kind of ugly, so I like it from a baseball standpoint, in terms of making it more play, more neutral, because I do think this will probably be the happy medium that they should have probably just in hindsight, I think their biggest misstep, obviously was not changing the wall, but making it so drastic. If they had their original plan should have been, letโs, letโs move it back. Weโre going to take away some seats, but letโs do this incrementally. Letโs do this and move it back, I donโt know, 10 feet rather than 30, or move it back 15 feet rather than 30, and then letโs see how that plays for a couple years, because we can always take away more seats. We can always move it back. The problem is, when you start wanting to go back and forth here now, what do you do? I mean, I under I understand that you canโt just easily add seats back in without looking at the structural integrity of left field and figuring that all out. So thatโs why, to me, you shouldnโt have gone as drastic as you did all at once. Did Elias
Nestor Aparicio 09:04
take credit or blame for that? Was it really his idea? And thatโs how the whole thing got done, and now absolutely his idea that theyโre moving it back.
Luke Jones 09:12
I absolutely. I look, you know me. I have no affinity for John Angelos or defending him. I never once got the impression that that was a John Angelos initiative. I think that was a baseball ops initiative.
Nestor Aparicio 09:23
I thought that was a baseball ops initiative to say to John, will get pictures. I
Luke Jones 09:27
mean, I think that was, I think that was part of the sell job, sure, but I think there was absolute, I mean, Nestor, you know, how that part played for so long.
Nestor Aparicio 09:35
Oh, Iโm not disputing so. I mean, I go back to when Messina bitch in the 90s and suck life. And, you know, they had to bring Scott Erickson a year to get ground balls. And, yeah, I get all that, and I will,
Luke Jones 09:47
and Iโll even say this part of me is a little disappointed, from the standpoint of, I do like parks that play differently, right? I like the idea that hitting a home run in Camden Yards, it becomes. Something that in left field had become extremely difficult. However, when youโre talking about someone like Ryan mountcastle, who has always been a pro about it, he absolutely loathed, hated the new left field at Camden Yards. Iโm sure Coby Mayo felt the same way. Iโm sure Austin Hayes, you know, felt the same way. How much of this might go into attracting a free agent outfielder like I donโt know. And this is a Iโm gonna say itโs to your
Nestor Aparicio 10:27
point. Had they done this in 1997 to keep Messina around, Cal Ripken would have hated it, sure.
Luke Jones 10:34
And thereโs always look there. I mean, thereโs always going to be someone that doesnโt like it. Right pictures right now for the Orioles, donโt like the fact that the walls moving back in, even though itโs not moving back to pre 2022 dimensions. So, so youโre always going to have some of that So, and thatโs why, even as a reporter covering the team on a daily basis, and I donโt say this is a knock on any any peers, but I kind of got got tired of seeing the Well, that would have been a home run in Camden Yards three years ago. Itโs like but itโs like, but itโs not anymore. So like, what are we doing here? Because it plays that way for both sides. You know, home runs that you might lose. Lost a couple here too. Exactly, exactly. So, so that, so that part of the narrative I was, I was unmoved by, but just in a general sense, I kind of like the fact that it becomes something that was unique. But now, okay, your course correcting here. Youโre finding a happy medium, as Mike Elias alluded to on Friday. But what are you going to do with that space? Thatโs the big question here. And all we know at the moment. And again, I assume this is a short term part, because, you know, itโs been put out there that the Orioles are paying for this in the short term, and we know that thereโs 600 million available to them for the long term renovation. So so my gut tells me that what weโre going to see in 2025 is not going to be how that space looks permanently. And I donโt mean moving the dimensions again as far as the fence, but I mean that space behind it, you know, because now right down the line, itโs going to look the same. But, you know, as we know, it juts back and itโs like 373 and then, you know, it goes all the way around to the bullpen. Thatโs the area thatโs going to get shorter. But what are you doing with that space in between, where you kind of look at it, I think itโs as you know, itโs being moved in in a range of eight to, I think, up to like 26 feet, or something like that, you know, depending on where youโre talking about, in left going out the left center. So what are you doing with that space? I mean, long term, is there an idea that maybe you move the bullpens and the patio or the left center bullpens now becomes some kind of party space, as you know, Nestor, weโve had conversations with plenty of people talking about stadia, and the future of stadiums and social areas are a big part of that, right? Well,
Nestor Aparicio 12:52
you know, the original one in left field was the old Comiskey Park bullpen. There was a bullpen, you know, underneath left field thereโs only people drinking behind Greg lazinski, you know back in the day, and you know, whatever, whomever Katie Griggs hires, whether itโs the canopy people here locally, or whomever, will have some updated version of the space thatโs not going to feel like 1989 and this conversation weโve had about the wall and back and forth and all that. Itโll go on and on. But hey, I just found it to be interesting. Itโs a Friday news dump thing in November. Like, get out in front of it. Why are you hiding from anything yet? 10,000 MPC is your playoff game. You mean, like, literally. Why are you hiding from what are you ashamed of it, you know, like, get out in front of it and sell it. Sell sell it like you sold it before. You and I have had a longer conversation than the press conference was right like. So weโre interested enough to talk about, in a week, when we could be sitting here killing the ravens and crushing Justin Tucker and talking about firing horrible and whatโs going wrong with the right we get, you know, but we like baseball, and we like talking about the finer points and all of that, they need to get out and and not do Friday news hides in Joseph, can I ask you a question? Youโre so freaking serious in season, so I want you to pretend that youโre John Harbaugh out of season before he lied to me all off season, threw me out and then, and then sent me prayers. No sense of humor about this, just, Iโm being honest, I donโt know the answer to this. How did the splash thing start? The Mr. Splash thing start, and the sprinkler thing that they right. Every team has a little they grab their due dads, they have a hitch, they grab their they do something. When they get a single, a double, can you I mean, Iโm not. Iโm literally, Iโm not. Nobodyโs ever explained this to me. Itโs almost like, yeah, carry Michael capetto and going, Kay Fabe, like, Iโm not being K fave. I see the guy in the splash, in the tutu and the and I like my wife, and I like, Iโm i. Feel like Iโm in the soap opera, but it came in late. Nobodyโs explaining what the hell happened? Because I really donโt know. Yeah, I
Luke Jones 15:05
mean, home run celebrations have become more of a thing in dugout. So in recent years, weโve seen the same thing in football Miami. What was it? Probably 567, years ago. At this point, the turnover chain, right? The Orioles in what was it? I guess it was 22 is when they had a home run chain. And you can still buy pies
Nestor Aparicio 15:26
after the game. Youโre talking about a home run celebration, yeah, sunflower seeds, or like that, right? Or some
Luke Jones 15:33
kind. I mean, you look, and if you pay attention and you watch enough baseball, thatโs not just the Orioles, youโll see all team just about every team has something. Some of itโs more clever than others. A lot of itโs campy. A lot of itโs lame. I mean, for lack of a better you know what?
Nestor Aparicio 15:48
Itโs exactly. What you just explained is exactly what end zone celebrations have become for me, which is just sort of like, get through the Aussie news and give the ball up. But
Luke Jones 15:59
not everyoneโs like that, right? So, but even then, to your point, the Derrick Henry or the Barry Sanders that has become a celebration in and of itself, because thatโs become the rarity, right? So, so when someone doesnโt do something that has its own brand now as well. So look, I mean, itโs a generational thing. Iโm fine with it. I donโt have any problem with it. But in 23 remember, thatโs when they started the home run, the home run, the ball, the Dong Bong, whatever you you know, I still remember being there the night that Kyle Gibson, who, you know is good man, probably not someone who wanted to have Bong, you know, you know the connotations of a beer Bong or a beer funnel associated with it. So he kind of said, Okay, itโs not the Dong Bong, but everyone knew it was, thatโs what it was. Itโs fine, right? But they used water, obviously, and, and they kind of, you know, they this whole water themed element kind of sprang from it, right? I mean, they do the sprinkler and all the different things that, you know, when someone has a single they turn on the faucet, double. All that, right? And obviously you hit a home run. You come and take a drink. And obviously it evolved a little bit this year. But the Mr. Splash thing just evolved from that. I never heard the specifics of like, was
Nestor Aparicio 17:14
this TJ Brightman or Greg Bader coming like? Iโm trying to get how into like, this human whoever the guy in the series. He signs autographs. He drinks caught, drinks bad coffee, by the way. But like, I, Iโve seen this thing happen, yeah, and I donโt know that Iโve even gone to the hit my head on the Baltimore banners pay wall to even, like, have it explained to me that it wasnโt some completely like Dan, Fan Fan man. Dan, the camera guy, caught him. He took his shirt off. Heโs a celebrity now. Captain Defense started in my section with my D. He became Captain Defense because he had a defense sign that I gave him, that I printed. Thatโs how he became Captain Defense. So I donโt know the origin story of the splash guy, or what his name is, or what his day job is, or when he became an or like I thought maybe he was a fan who did it, who took it to the team and said, Iโll stand out there and put a 221, and splash like i Itโs the goofiest thing, because it doesnโt feel I donโt know the story. So itโs hard for me to sort of buy in above and beyond. Everybodyโs getting wet out there, and Rubensteinโs been out there, and Joan Jett and rip I mean, I get all that, but they never, ever explain that. This was Greg baders, great idea, or TJ, like, I just doesnโt, Iโm a storyteller. Iโm just trying to, like, connect the dots on Wild Bill. I know the Wild Bill story, he sat up there. He was cab driver. He started spelling things with his beer buddies. More people game. I was one of them. I can tell you the story 40 years later.
Luke Jones 18:49
I donโt know the splash guy story, I really donโt. Yeah, and look, I mean the player celebration, thatโs the organic part. And then they latched onto that. I mean, I Okay. I think itโs fine. I Iโve had friends, you know, personal friends, sit in this in the splash section, and itโs fun. And look, is that? Is it as organic as Wild Bill in Section 34 at Memorial Stadium? No, but what is in this day
Nestor Aparicio 19:12
and age? Yeah, this guy is stand now there is part of the brought it off. If they, if they flashed in right field. They moved left field. I probably wouldnโt even, but I wrote down, Iโm like, splash spring, yeah, thereโs a platform. Yeah, you, I mean, and again, you and I donโt talk about this on july 23 because CNL Perez going last night, yeah. I mean, exactly you, yeah, we got games going. You get off my load, exactly. So Iโm trying to, like, get a little levity here. Not even levity. I mean, Iโm just so you donโt even know. And I donโt know. I really donโt know, and I donโt know. We know a lot, but we donโt know that, which I know that theyโve done a really lousy job of telling that story or making up, like, when you go into Ocean City, into Jonah and the whale, itโs just the plate. But they have a story up there about the whale, you know, and they. Make you sort of buy in a little bit like the Renaissance Festival. So I,
Luke Jones 20:03
I donโt know. I mean, I hear you. I donโt think itโs that deep,
Nestor Aparicio 20:09
you know. I know they sell the hell out of it. So, yeah, but I,
Luke Jones 20:13
I guess my point is, you know, I think thereโs something to be said that itโs kind of funny, that thereโs no, you know that Mr. Splash, is it someone thatโs, like, known, like, other than, like, his, his closest friends, I guess, as far as being really not, and Iโm sure, sure there,
Nestor Aparicio 20:29
thereโs probably, Iโm sure the guyโs nameโs Bob or something, I donโt know. Yeah, I mean, the story doesnโt, it doesnโt make any sense to me. And Iโm an oral fan for 50 years. Iโm just good make it make sense to me. Thatโs all. And, yeah, I mean, making sense is we go out, we get wet, and itโs fun, okay?
Luke Jones 20:47
And I think thatโs all it really is in the in the sense that, like, I donโt know anything about real fan Dan. I mean, I, I could friend request them on on Facebook, but, you know, I, and I donโt say this with any disrespect, I donโt really have any interest in knowing real fan? Dan, other than just like, hey, heโs at the games. He he could be your uncle, he could be your brother, it could be your dad. Like, itโs fine, heโs real fan. Dan, yeah, exactly. And, you know, I think the one thing with the splash zone that theyโve done that has been fun is incorporating, you know, putting Adam Jones out there on a special night, putting Ben McDonald out there, putting Cal Ripken, you know, we saw David Rubenstein out there. So
Nestor Aparicio 21:22
if thatโs a great way to thatโs a great explanation to Katie Griggs, if youโre explaining it to her, saying, What is this? Whatโs a chance to have the fan of the game? Itโs a 12th fan. Yeah, itโs a fence and itโs Seattle. Itโs the 12th man fan, right? Exactly. So, so
Luke Jones 21:36
again, I mean that part of it, I mean, I like that theyโre not just completely scrapping it because theyโre theyโre changing the dimensions of left center field.
Nestor Aparicio 21:46
But it would have made a lot more sense if that person was wearing a Wild Bill hat. Thatโs all Iโm saying. But fear not. Lucas. Weโre talking about complete anything else thatโs completely meaningless about the off season. You want to talk about real baseball, you want to get serious, put your serious hat on for a minute or no. I mean, we could put our series. I mean, I did that last week for 65 minutes, and I had Juan Soto coming here, and youโre like, we canโt afford him. Are you? You know? No,
Luke Jones 22:08
I never said that. I never said that. Iโm being realistic though. I mean, and Iโm being real realistic from the standpoint of, yeah, they can afford him. But then what? Whatโs so, what is the payroll moving forward. Because, no, thatโs
Nestor Aparicio 22:21
what my question is,
Luke Jones 22:22
sure, sure. Well, theyโre not going to broadcast that though, you know that weโre going to see it will this will become very evident to us by March just how serious they are in terms of augmenting their current roster, which, by the way, is still very good. Letโs not act like this is a team thatโs, you know, theyโre not a poverty franchise in terms of what the makeup of their current roster is. They need some they need that make some additions. Thereโs no question about that. But theyโve got a good base to go off of here, right? So, so letโs, you know, letโs put that, you know, weโll make put that out there. But come March, weโre going to see what this looks like in terms of what theyโve done to fortify their pitching, in terms of adding a right handed bat, in terms of perhaps adding a couple veteran players who maybe have some postseason experience and maybe carry some clout in that way, not as dramatic as Frank Robinson joining the 1966 Orioles, but something in that family of thought, right, In that school of thought, in terms of, is there someone out there, even if heโs not going to be one of your two or three best players that could be brought in here, that you know has a reputation for being a good glue guy, has played in the World Series, has played in postseason, and has had some success even, and third guys like that out there. But you know, for me, and Iโve even seen this here recently, one thing that bothers me at this point when I see individuals, and I donโt, I donโt mean this as a shot at anyone, but when you hear people talk about how to fortify, how to augment, I still see people talking so much about trades, and I guess this is where I have a problem in terms of saying theyโve made some trades. They got Corbin burns, great. It didnโt work out in terms of everything around him, but he was exactly as advertised. It just stinks that they lost Kyle Bradish and they lost Grayson Rodriguez in the second half, and they lost Tyler wells and John means, never got healthy, and had to have Tommy John, sir. Well, really,
Nestor Aparicio 24:26
at the end of the day, they got eliminated because they didnโt hit the ball. Well, sure, sure, but, but, but everything,
Luke Jones 24:31
right? All of it comes to all of it goes together. And, you know, they had injuries, you know, offensively, as far as Jordan westburg And how much that hurt them, yeah,
Nestor Aparicio 24:38
but they paid for recording burns, even exactly so. So Iโm not, Iโm not
Luke Jones 24:43
sitting here trashing that trade by any stretch of the imagination. And I think I even pointed out to you, go look at Joey Ortiz. The second half of the season wasnโt great, really, wasnโt as much as like everyone was saying, hey, this guyโs gonna be an all star shortstop. His his second half was maybe not Adley rutschman bad, I was gonna say. Was better, wasnโt much better than than him in all truth. So, and I donโt say that to bash Joey Ortiz. Heโs a legit major league player. Point is that trade I have no problem with. I guess where I have a problem is if weโre going to continue to try to convince ourselves that the only way the Orioles can get better is by trading more prospects. Thatโs where I look at this and say, look at the trade deadline. Yeah, thatโs what you have to do, because you canโt go out and sign a premier free agent at the trade deadline, right? You have to trade for one now you can take on money, which they did with effin, but this is all about at this point for me, scanning the free agent market. Iโm not saying you canโt make any trades, but I donโt want this to become that you have to continue to trade away from your farm system and trade away from your farm system and trade away from your farm system, and now that pipeline that youโve been talking about, that youโve sold in terms of how this team is going to be sustainably good for a really long time, and that absolutely is a big part of it. Ask the LA Dodgers, who have a 300 plus million dollar payroll, how important their farm system has been to them, winning championships and being in the playoffs year after year. I mean, the itโs a big part of what the Dodgers have done in addition to obviously going out and buying that was
Nestor Aparicio 26:10
always with the Yankees that 30 years ago, when cheater Rivera, those guys came through. They they got players, they kept their players. Maybe we have those players, maybe we donโt. But to your point, youโve moved sideways, if youโve given up five prospects to get two starters, when you can go out in the free agent market and buy starters. And I want to choose everybody else whoโs a big boy does not John Angelos. Itโs what serious Major League Baseball teams do. Itโs what they do well. And
Luke Jones 26:39
I would say this, look. Take taking the Yankees, the Mets, the Dodgers, the Philly, the top the elite tier in terms of payroll. Just look at the next tier, right? The teams that rank five through 12, letโs say, and Iโve talked a lot about how the St Louis Cardinals, at different points, have been in that tier. And sometimes they theyโre a little bit, you know, on the lower side certain years, and then they go back up that thereโs, there are ebbs and flows to it in terms of, you know, what, what players you develop, who you want to keep, who you say goodbye to. I mean, the Cardinals, it was, what, 1415, years ago, at this point in time, that they said goodbye to Albert pools. They got a lot of criticism from a lot of people for that, it was really smart that they let him go Albert Paulโs. He had a couple
Nestor Aparicio 27:27
really good years with the Ravens. Played a game, you can go back and look it up, whatever year he walked, 4567, whatever year that was. The Ravens played in St Louis. Might have been five. The Ravens played a sort of a Chris Redmond kind of era game out there. And I have pictures on the streets of St Louis with people, keep Albert. They made signs like free the bird signs. They made defense signs. They did say, keep pull holes in St Louis. And that was the Adam. That was 2011 Iโm sorry, my bad. Okay. I
Luke Jones 27:57
mean, look, itโs been a while all the all these years on around run together, but, but the point with Iโm making there is, itโs both, right? It your farm system needs a matter. You can make trades and trade from that farm system, because, yes, there are sometimes unique talents that you say, I want to go get that guy, and I want to go get that guy, and I guess I would feel better about the Orioles doing that, if that comes with a contract extension, then so itโs not another case where youโre trading Joey Ortiz and DL Hall, who, again, I donโt think are going to be these guys that are transcendent major league players for the next 10 years. I mean, DL Hall had the same issue, and say in Milwaukee that he had in Baltimore, he couldnโt stay healthy this past year. I mean, thatโs still the issue for DL Hall, so but the point is, if youโre going to trade from your farm system, I want to make sure that you are securing long term pieces, not just, oh, this is just a rental. Oh, this is just a rental. Because you deplete the farm system, your teams have been better, so youโre no longer drafting in the top five, and obviously the draft system and all that has changed anyway, but you donโt want to continue to have a drain of your farm system. And then you look at this thing, and you still have an increased payroll all that much, and you know, where are you as an organization? And then suddenly you see all your windows closing. So what do you like best
Nestor Aparicio 29:22
about this period piece that I shared here with anybody watching on our video? This is and youโre just listening on the radio. You have no idea. Luke started the laugh out loud because I found my picture. September 25 2011 gotta love baseball in St Louis. Keep Albert in St louis.com, and thereโs a very pretty girl, youโre wearing a number five, and her boyfriend whoโs got a hat that looks like itโs right out of the Lou Brock era, the stammal era, in your favorite place there. I even got the Gateway Arch in there for you, the famed Gateway Arch. So look, mistakes are made all the time. You know what Iโm saying. We had Chris Davis. I was a. Going
Luke Jones 30:00
to say, I mean, sometimes the mistake is signing the player. Sometimes, of course, the mistake is letting them go. In the case
Nestor Aparicio 30:07
of letting Machado go was a mistake. I think not getting more for him was the mistake there. The mistake not going to be and you have to go one way or the other, maximize the value, is what I
Luke Jones 30:15
mean, letโs face it, in hindsight, and I donโt even think this is hindsight, because I feel like we were talking about this the off season before, or even two off seasons before. I think we all recognized for the Orioles where things were heading. 2014 felt like their last best chance, right, not to say they werenโt, and they made the playoffs in 2016 when Zach Britton was left in the bullpen and Toronto walks it off against at that point in time, that was really if this had been a functional, normal organization with good ownership and a general manager and a manager who were aligned, which we know Dan Duquette and Bucha Walter, as much as They made it work for a few years. Towards the end, it was not as Kumbaya. I think thatโs, you know, thatโs obvious, you know. And Iโm not even blaming one or the other. I think there were, you know, they just were different. You know, they were different. We know that the hierarchy was weird because Dan duquet hired after Bucha Walter was hired, right? I mean, Buck came in in 2010 and Duquette came in post 2011 when McPhail left. So but post 2016 was when those difficult conversations needed to start in terms of, okay, where are you going with Manny Machado? Where are you going with payroll? Where are you going with this team? Well, youโd like
Nestor Aparicio 31:36
to think that those, those conversations are being had right now by Kate that that they these are serious people five or seven year plan to say, Where are we going to be? And part of this, you know, I put the St Louis stuff up, Luke, and itโs off season, and Iโve got to be the prick in the room again, and just say, you know, in St Louis, they have businesses that have supported sky boxes. They have fans that come from everywhere, that have supported it for a generation, and have Cardinals ads and grandmoms and granddads. And thereโd be three days a year your your mom and your sister would bring the kids. And like all of that, Iโve seen all that. St Louis sustainable. Sure, they they lost their football team. I donโt know if you heard or not, but they have a hockey team. Very vibrant soccer scene there. Amongst other things, thereโs a million things. Thereโs colleges there, thereโs things to do. But I donโt know where Katie Griggs was sold on this job, that there are 1.2 million citizens in the city is such suffering atrophy, and itโs down to 450,000 residents, and theyโre 28% Hispanic and 74% African American. And and these people have left. And these, I donโt know what all of their Bucha studies are in regard to what they think the market is, what the market would bear, what the the economists would tell you the money is. And like all of that, Iโve sat with Dick Cass for 25 years before he lied to me, out about no fortune, 500 companies here and all of that. I really would like to see some and Iโll say projection, because thatโs the word they would use in a budget projections, all of the fancy words that I use here as a CEO, that I have to deal with, with banks and loans and people and partners and all of that stuff. But what they really think the ceiling is for this, what the cost is going to be for that in whatever the stadium, new things going to be, where the benefits are with gambling, selling drinks, parking, how much they think some Joe and Middle River is going to pay? Or, you know, your brother, your sister coming down from Pennsylvania, or somebody coming in, how much is a ticket? How much is a skybox whoโs buying it? Who are the targets to buy these sweets back at? What price? How much are we going to charge wise markets and Zip Dry cleanings and royal farms? How much more can we get from them? Or can we get any more? And how much to push royal farms out and bring Wawa in and like that. Theyโre figuring all of that out. Great, you go figure that out. Katie, youโre smarter than me. You know more than about Baltimore than I do. You would never want to hang out with anybody that sold sports here for 40 years successfully so far. Whatโs Whatโs the ceiling? What, what, what, how much are they going to make? How are they going to make it? Whereโs the TV revenue coming from? What really happens to mass and you know, Peterโs gone, Johnโs gone. Theyโre all Rob. Manfred still here. Rob. Whatโs really going to happen with whatโs really What are you telling David Rubenstein, I just put 1,000,000,008 up with his buddies and Sharpies to tell them the pipeline for revenue for media and streaming and what we used to call television and rights fees and all of that. Where is all that? Whereโs Bal 98 rock fit into this? Whereโs your online whereโs the revenue? Where is it coming from? Where are the fans? How much will the market bear? And then. 10, then you got a number. How much is national revenue? How much are we getting for the the branding and the T shirts and the $300 jerseys I saw for Adley rutschman up on the team store in New York City last week? And then how much weโre going to put in payroll? How much money do we need to make? Whatโs our exit strategy? Because these guys didnโt buy this at 1,000,000,008 not finding an exit strategy. Thatโs 10 years from now, at 4.2 billion, with projections about the casino theyโre going to add in the upper day. I mean, these are sharp people. I think maybe theyโre morons, may I donโt know. I maybe just a rich guy that bought the team. It certainly I met him last week. Possible, I donโt know. Maybe portrays some ignorance that He clearly doesnโt have as a billionaire, but at some point, no matter what business youโre in, Luke, even if you hate the media, me love the media, you give you free hot dogs or not, or whatever they do, you have to answer to the stakeholders. You have to answer to the customers. McDonaldโs tells people whatโs going to be on their Happy Meal menu next year. You know, like every bit royal farms calls me every 60 days, and we change out chicken ads for the next thing theyโre going to sell for coffee this time of year and free coffee on the app, which is a great idea if you have the ROFO app, by the way. Um, I know theyโre new, but as this thing evolves and they build civic trust with stakeholders, we start to vibe out whether theyโre the Cardinals and we should be bought in the way every Cardinals fan has been bought in, or whether this is some pigsty like the Miami Marlins have been, or whether this is Just a grab bag for an old guy to have a little bit of fun and flip it off to his partners five years now, because they win and how theyโre going to win, and they could win this year without doing much. They get a little pitching. They can win. Theyโre good enough to win. But how serious is this operation in regard to what the citizens have put in and where itโs supposed to be 10 years now, even if Mr. Rubenstein is not a part of that at 84 and Mr. Eric Getty is or whomever it is, I just this is the beginning of them. I literally just got my new credit card in the mail. Literally, I just got my new literally, this is their chance to get my W N, S T corporate credit card with a $2,500 an annual honorarium that I used to give to the business of Chad Steele, actually $3,800 need to give the Chad Steele so I have $3,800 a year. I donโt give to the Ravens anymore. I have a credit card here. I love my last names, Aparicio. Do you know my cousinโs the only Venezuelan in the Hall of Fame. I donโt know that I knew that before eight weeks ago, like, I had to google that. Iโm like, oh, conception is not in they havenโt put cap. Iโm thinking like, like, so I love baseball, and I have a credit card literally right here, and they should be trying to get it. Not hide the wall on Friday, not hide from me at parties or where, or any you know, literally anyone you know, in in my way of thinking about this, I donโt
38:12
I,
Nestor Aparicio 38:14
well, I donโt Know. Iโm done. My spiel is over.
Luke Jones 38:19
You done. Weโre gonna see I mean, weโre gonna find out. I mean, look, so everything youโre mentioning, I Iโm not sitting here disagreeing with you at the same time. Iโm not sure how many franchises across the country are broadcasting these types of things, either, right? I mean, these are things that go on behind the scenes, and itโs, itโs going to become pretty apparent pretty quickly, right which way this is going, or you
Nestor Aparicio 38:47
have nothing else to judge them on. Iโm not going to question. I can only exactly, and their first match is a Friday afternoon news dump to move the wall back in. I
Luke Jones 38:57
mean, how many teams are, I mean, but where, how do you want them? How should they have done that point? See, see, I disagree, from the standpoint of, Michael is came on and did a zoom and took questions on it, hiding it would have been putting it out at, I think the Zoom was at three oโclock on Friday. And okay, I get it. Itโs Friday, although you and I both know the Friday News dump doesnโt really exist any, at least to the degree that it used to, right? Because the internet and social media, thereโs never a time where that stuff goes away in the way. J Fave part of this for anybody listening is,
Nestor Aparicio 39:33
if you want to hide from it, do it Friday.
Luke Jones 39:36
I hear you.
Nestor Aparicio 39:36
I go, why? You know, they shouldnโt be hiding from anything with 10,000 empty seats? Yeah, they should be selling everything.
Luke Jones 39:43
Theyโre doing, not selling the wall, though, because youโre not adding new seats into it. The only way that would have
Nestor Aparicio 39:49
made sense is the news item, dude, thatโs all. Iโm thinking like a PR. Iโm thinking like Vince, but youโre criticizing it. And I just asked you how they Iโm not criticizing anything other than. Then their off seasons, sure of 30 years of complete insignificance, of they donโt sell anything, they donโt try to sell anything. I understand
Luke Jones 40:11
when you hear it, oh, you said you donโt know how they should have done it differently. So then, so then, why are we using this as an donโt
Nestor Aparicio 40:18
do it Friday at three oโclock is what Iโd say. Okay, thatโs all. So it was Tuesday or Tuesday at 10am
Luke Jones 40:25
I mean, again, I agree with you. Made
Nestor Aparicio 40:28
so many thing that you serve some lunch, and we all come down and we actually talk about, I donโt want to go down in the city talking about it a
Luke Jones 40:35
lot. I donโt want to go down there to cover the wall being moved back. I got one man, all right, man, I covered, I cover the team and I cover,
Nestor Aparicio 40:44
just already done a half an hour on the wall? No, but Iโm just saying, you know, we
Luke Jones 40:48
can do it. We can do it over a zoom. Now, what, where, where? I will agree with you. For example, when they traded for Corbin burns and all they did was a zoom. That is when bring him down to Camden Yards. I donโt I donโt care if heโs balking, because itโs five days before the start of spring training. Give him a bonus. Give him every single gift certificate to every place in the city he might want to eat. Do everything you have to do to bring him to Camden Yards. Do a press conference, do a photo shoot with him wearing an Orioles cap, in Jersey, standing on the mound at Camden Yards, even if the even if the field is being seated, or something like, what, whatever. That was an example where I agree with you wholeheartedly, the dimensions changing. Thatโs sufficient for
Nestor Aparicio 41:37
Okay, well, letโs see when they sign another Corbin burn. Say, I listen, I just tell it, I agree. Iโve been so busy with the with the music crap Iโm doing this week in the holidays and my family and a sales cycle and crab cake tours, like all of that, I have not inked my Katie Griggs letter. I wrote a letter to David Rubenstein, which was about my access and about being on the up and up, not being full of bullsh, the way the way the other guy was right. So now Iโve met David Rubenstein, and it is what it is, right, right. At some point, Katie Griggs is out selling this every day, and people came up to me last week at a connects event where there were 300 people, my friend Jason Pappas gave a speech about CEOs and stuff like that. But I saw people out there, and they all saw me, and they come up to me, and they wonโt talk baseball with me. And, you know, off season, we spend the money like, what should we do? They donโt, they defense, whatever. They donโt talk about that kind of stuff. They will talk about the team and and they inevitably ask me about my press credential. Every one of them asked me about it, and I said, you know, this is exactly the room Katie Griggs should be in, where thereโs 300 people. I know 90 of them because Iโve been doing this forever. Thereโs black people, white people, old people, young people, people in all sorts of weird sectors, of cleaning businesses and cyber businesses, local businesses and crab cake delivers. Steve Pappas was there for Baptist. Justin Wendell, so like, thereโs just this cross section of people. She didnโt know anybody in Baltimore. And Iโm thinking to myself, should be going in the rooms where, if youโre serious about running this thing, to knowing people, to making it feel like youโre like a community member, and not like that. Iโm an ATM with my credit card standing by because I know baseball and you sign a picture. I it just used to be much more of a community thing, Luke. I just, and I know you donโt expect that, and I kind of, now that Iโm holding my credit card, Iโm going to demand that so and if theyโre not going to give that back, then donโt talk about being the community organization that you want to be. If youโre not going to front face with a real plan, you got new owners do something. Call a real press conference. Wash Sean Angeloโs out, have Katie Griggs sit there. Invite everybody, invite fans, invite people and ask questions and show us what the new thingโs going to be beyond giving out hats squirting and showing up at events and speaking and leaving and having an off season where thereโs no juice here. Tell me youโre gonna have spring training. Him. Tell me youโre doing just get in front of me. Have a Winter Carnival open the club level on a Tuesday night December. Make tickets half price if you come down and weโre gonna get free Ho Hos and ding dings and Santaโs lap and free cocoa. Yeah. I mean, like, I donโt again. These were all things that were 30 years ago. They did forever, the expectation level and the Stockholm syndrome of everyone you included with no hey, people to me and they say to me, who are we signing? You know, but they said we canโt sign one Soto that you
Luke Jones 44:40
donโt like people attacking your integrity, and youโre saying that, Oh no, no, no, no. Itโs not integrity. Just you just suggested Iโm an apologist for the team Iโm suggesting because Iโve lowered your bar, because youโre gonna have a $300 million payroll Nestor thatโs not lowering the bar, thatโs living in reality,
Nestor Aparicio 44:57
that one player, any player. Any player.
Luke Jones 45:01
I didnโt say that.
Nestor Aparicio 45:03
Iโm telling you, from a reality
Luke Jones 45:05
based standpoint, that theyโre not going to have a $300 million payroll. Thatโs not being an apologist for the team. Thatโs right.
Nestor Aparicio 45:15
Weโre not getting this guy. Weโre not getting that guy. Thatโs 30 years, honest to God, thatโs 30 years of Stockholm Syndrome. We canโt because I lived through Jimmy key, Roberto Almar, where they had money. And youโre talking out of both sides of your mouth. Youโre talking about how they canโt even get people to come here for playoff games. And then youโre saying they should sign. Want that? Well, yeah, exactly that. That is not conundrum. I just really use their conundrum, though, thatโs Major League Baseball conundrum, though, Luke, really, I mean, weโre being K Fave if we donโt bring that up, that we donโt discuss anything like this with football, as to the best five guys, we canโt get that. Weโre only five teams can get those guys and that philosophy and I and certainly on a personal level, you do realize that the NFL has a system where the top five free agents never hit the market because they have the franchise tag, and quarterbacks stay with their own team because theyโre tagged because teams like the pirates donโt pocket all their money. No but, but my point. You know the Bengals have tried like hell, so Iโll throw that out as well. But football, there
Luke Jones 46:22
is, there are, there are, thereโs a system put in place that the absolute best of the best players never hit the market because they theyโre tagged.
Nestor Aparicio 46:35
Weโre just in a different place. If youโre telling me we canโt have the good things, we canโt get, the best things. Thatโs, right? Youโre
Luke Jones 46:43
an apologist. Thatโs that.
Nestor Aparicio 46:45
Thatโs your word for it. You think thatโs being a realist, right? I mean, thatโs the you would call that a realist. Iโm not calling Iโm trying
Luke Jones 46:53
to be an analyst here. Iโm trying to be an analyst here. Iโm trying to look at all the information that we have. Okay? I donโt think itโs realistic to even talk about the Orioles signing Juan Soto do. I think they could. Yes, absolutely they could. Part of what Iโm also doing here is looking at who their general manager is, who their baseball operations department is, how they have operated, how I expect them to operate, and I donโt think theyโre going to view it through the lens of thinking that is probably going to be the best way for them to exhaust all of their resources of what theyโre projecting their payroll to be over the long run, and pumping that into one player making that much money. Now that said, that does not mean that Iโm saying that they should be like the Oakland Aโs or the Tampa Bay Rays, or that they should have a payroll that is going to be bottom five or bottom 10 in baseball,
Nestor Aparicio 47:44
Gunner Henderson, if heโs gunner Henderson, that they would have the $51 million a year in 2028 that they will absolutely make that happen even. And thereโs no way you can promise on any of this, right? I
Luke Jones 47:59
mean, I canโt promise, but to
Nestor Aparicio 48:01
me, they already know. Are they? They should already know whether theyโre going to operate like you think theyโre going to operate, which is the why feed them steak when theyโll eat hamburger, and thatโs the way itโs always been. And that will be a divide between you and me. And if you think itโs personal, itโs not, itโs not you being an apology. I know weโre in your bar like just for 30 years on the baseball thing here, and I think that you shouldnโt think that way. When billionaires come in here and think like billionaires and think they want to win and meet be Mr. Big pants, that it wouldnโt be a big stretch for Mr. Araghty and Mr. Rubenstein, who sat in front of me and bragged about all the money he has to say, weโre going to operate 100 million upside down the first five years here. Thatโs 500 million. Itโs a half a billion. We bought the thing at a depressed level. We got 600 million in civic funding. Weโre not going to be the 100 and $4 million payroll team. Weโre going to be the two $30 million payroll team for five years, even if the seats are empty because weโre wealthy and we want to win, and we donโt need to, we donโt need to operate this Rubenstein said in front of me, right in front of a whole synagogue last week, a he doesnโt know anything about baseball. Iโm not being mean. I sat there. Itโs one of the reasons theyโre gonna kill any of owners donโt, though plenty of owners donโt know about football. All he knows is what heโs told, right? And then he parrots what he knows. This is a guy that I know a lot more about baseball than David Rubenstein, like that. Just flat out, I sit in a room, Iโll tell you, Iโve been doing this 40 years. I know so that being said, he said he parroted out there, and he says a lot of things very matter of factly in his delivery. And I pay attention to all of it, because Iโm never going to speak to him, probably again, or if I do, itโs not going to be in a getting a real answer. He said, In our industry, you know, we tend to, you know, spend what. Make, okay? You know, like, if thatโs it, then you are absolutely right. Youโre right to be mad at me and angry at me for expecting more, or for calling you an apologist when youโre really being a realist. Youโre not apologizing because heโs not apologizing. We only made 125 million. We spent 125 million. Thatโs what we made. I met so we, you know, like, itโll be the bud ceiling thing weโre coming into this. Itโs we have plenty of money, moneyโs not a problem, like all of that. Or weโre gonna operate bone on bone, or dollar on dollar. And you see those empty seats out there? Thatโs where gunner Henderson went. He went with those empty seats because we couldnโt afford him, because we canโt afford nice things, and if we grow our own Juan Soto tough poop skis, heโs going to go somewhere else, because gunner Henderson may be better than Juan Soto by the time he hits. I mean literally. And once the Dodgers get involved and Mr. Big pants says, Well, Iโm 78 now, and we were in a championship game the other year. We did okay, and Iโm going to flip the team anyway. And thereโs still 10,000 seats in the upper deck, because Katie can figure how to price it right, because $10 to get in wasnโt enough. I mean, they need more fans. They need more money. Iโll keep saying that. In order to affect even gunner Henderson, they need more fans, more money than where they are. From a revenue standpoint, it from a potentiality of their revenue. But I hate that. Going into this already, weโve lowered the bar to say, well, Connor got to be too much money. We weโd have to let him go, um, because his agentโs a bad guy. And we already know all that. You know. We already know where this usually goes with Boris, to the to the length the 11th hour, and by then itโll be $800 million and who knows whoโs running it, or what the success would be. But I just worry about coming into this. Theyโre brand new. They havenโt taken any questions from you yet, or me or anybody else about lowering the bar as to well, weโre not going to be top shelf ever around here. That that would sadden me, with the government given 600 million and like all that, it could be. I donโt expect it to be the Yankees, but I expect it to at least be the Cardinals, at least, at least in my mind. And this
Luke Jones 52:07
is where I took issue with you accusing me of having Stockholm Syndrome, because Iโve been saying that for three years now. Iโve been saying that before David Rubenstein bought the team, before we even heard of David Rubenstein in baseball ownership space, Iโve been saying that a vision for a long time should be the st Louis Cardinals, different market. Iโm not saying itโs exactly the same, but St Louis and its footprint in that region is hardly the Yankees or the Dodgers. Itโs not LA or Philadelphia or New York. I mean, we know itโs not a media monster, but thereโs a potential there, and I think again, running it well. And you know, you mentioned lowering the bar. The bar has been low, right? The bar has been at the bottom floor. So for me, I guess for me, is my focus isnโt on, go sign Juan Soto right now and put it on in the penthouse immediately. But there are a lot of levels in between building, from where you are right now to maybe not being in the discussion at some point. And look gunner Henderson, if you resign him and but itโs not until five years from now, he might be getting the same kind of contract that Juan Soto is going to get this off season. So I guess for me, itโs just looking at the full range of outcomes here between it not really changing a whole lot, from how itโs been or even when itโs been good for the Select seasons over the last 30 years to what youโre envisioning it becoming. And I guess for me, I donโt view one Soto through the lens of the end all be all. There are 25 different paths that the Orioles could take this off season that involves spending money and getting better players and augmenting and improving your roster, and not just depleting your farm system and making trades, because thatโs the cheapest way to get a player. Although Iโm not opposed to making trades, of course. So I guess for me, Iโm just looking at it, I guess from a wider range of outcomes, where Iโm not fixated as much on that idea, but yeah, in a vacuum,
Nestor Aparicio 54:01
could they go sign Juan Soto? Yeah,
Luke Jones 54:03
of course they could. Iโm just telling you from what my expectations are, which include what knowledge I do have of Mike Elias and how the baseball ops have worked, and what I how I expect them to continue work. Well, theyโve
Nestor Aparicio 54:16
had to work that way. My point, theyโve been under the constraints are running a true right or small market, poorly run in every way, from a revenue standpoint, you know, underperforming by any stretch of any imagination, and underperforming financially, spiritually all the way through. How does that change. I think thereโs, thereโs got to be something going on here this off season that feels drastically different than the way it used to be Friday news dumps and weโre moving the fence is what Iโve got to work with right now. And Iโm working with it and your expectations that theyโre not going to sign burns. I donโt want them to sign. I donโt want the Stockholm Syndrome is you donโt want them to spend their money, no, like you think that thereโs such a limited amount of it that youโre living on the small budget mine guy thing, and Iโm living on that these guys are billionaires there. If theyโre going to operate it bone on bone, with 10,000 empty seats in the outfield, then this thing is, I would say itโs going to be a disaster. Itโs just never going to be great. Never going to be great. You
Luke Jones 55:23
know what I mean? Agree, agreed. I I agree on that. My just to clarify on the burns thing, because I donโt want people listening just saying I donโt like Corbin burns. My idea on Corbin Burns is, and here, hereโs an example of where Iโll push back on. You know what you said a few minutes ago? That set me off. If youโre going to sign Corbin burns, give them a four year deal and blow the blow the offer out of the water in terms of average annual value. Let me pay a premium for his prime years, and then Scott Boris and Corbin burns can brag to everyone that heโs the highest paid pitcher in baseball in terms of AAV, right, rather than an eight year deal, knowing that four of those years are going to be a lousy value, Iโd rather just say, Hey, you want $50 million a year. Iโll give Iโll give you 50, but weโre going to do a three year deal, or a four year deal, you know, in those terms. And Burns is just an example. I said the same thing years ago about not for the Orioles to do it, necessarily, because by that point, they were already heading towards the rebuild, because they had crashed and burned. But thatโs what I had always said about Manny Machado, or, you know, some of these guys that get these deals where itโs this long term deal that has the opt outs. Iโd much rather just lean right into that and say, Hey, Iโm going to give you a, you know what, ton of money, but itโs only going to be for a shorter term period of time, but itโs going to be so much more in terms of average annual
Nestor Aparicio 56:47
you set the market, you piss off the other owners too, like you got that going on, you know, all day long, too. So, I mean, should
Luke Jones 56:55
I care about that? I mean, youโre, youโre the one talking about, I shouldnโt care about trying to save money. Why should I care about ticking off the other owners. Then, you know what I mean, like through that lens, I mean, hey, Iโll say this much.
Nestor Aparicio 57:05
Thatโs a big part of being new in the club. Mr. Rubenstein, Iโm trusting in that club. Well,
Luke Jones 57:09
but, but youโre, youโre, youโre going, you know, youโre, youโre taking a shot at me because Iโm lowering the bar. But thatโs lowering the bar just as much. Then, like, you know, be a trendsetter. Then let, letโs face it, the Cleveland Browns for as much as theyโve gotten crushed, and that deal with Deshaun Watson has been a disaster, an absolute disaster, and the fact that heโs a you know what, off the field makes it even worse. But from a football standpoint, itโs been an utter disaster. That deal. If Deshaun Watson was one of the best five players in the league right now, and the Browns were a Super Bowl contender. You would, you would start seeing more players, more quarterbacks, getting fully guaranteed contracts. It, it failed spectacularly, and now the owner is going to be dug in even more than you know, more than ever in terms of that. But the point is, they did. They set a trend, not saying it was a smart one, obviously, but they did that. So I hear what youโre saying, look,
Nestor Aparicio 58:07
and I hear what youโre saying that Iโm being unrealistic and that Iโm being too rough on you. When Mr. Rubenstein sat in front of me and said, Well, the way we do it in the industry is, whatever we make, we spend, thatโs what we tend to do, that thatโs what he said. So we tend to do. And Iโm thinking to myself, my question mark, Peter got over his skis 20 years ago, spending 25 million more a year on David Sagi and CO nine. And literally, Peter went into hock, literally trying to chase baseball players, right? Look, I donโt think Mr. Rubenstein is going to do that like COVID up in New York going crazy with money and whatnot. Iโm just saying, if youโre 74 years old, and youโre in this, and youโre serious about this, and you have all this money coming into the stadium and stuff, this is the time to go out over your skis financially now, not later, you know, while you have gunner Henderson and rutschman and these guys, this is the time to say, letโs get a little speculative here. Weโll have enough money for rushman later on, and Henderson later on, when the time comes, because weโre going to win championships around here. I donโt know that this guy has that thirst. I think this guy bought a toy. I donโt think heโs George Steinbrenner. I donโt think heโs all that involved in this. I donโt think he thinks about it all day. I donโt think literally, I donโt think heโs going to be that involved in it. That when they come to him and say, give me $400 million for this, or $500 million for that. Iโm with you. I donโt think itโs going to happen. Yeah, and I think they have Stockholm syndrome to everyone here to make it okay. Weโll never talk about it, because it wonโt happen. This will be the only argument we ever have about it, because they will set their bar and their standard for what theyโre willing to do, and they might look more like the Brewers than the Cardinals. You know, before itโs all over with you know what? I mean,
Luke Jones 59:42
I hear you again. Iโll just go, Iโm what Iโm pushing back on primarily, is one Soto is not the only path to winning the World Series. The Yankees had one Soto. They lost in five games to the Dodgers, right? I mean, the Padres had one Soto. They didnโt make it to the World Series. The nats did win a World Series with Soto, albeit he was what, 19 or 20 years old at that point in time, 21 whatever he was, itโs just look, Iโm in full agreement. As far as raising the bar and raising the payroll and wanting to see this organization have a vision and wanting to see it grow and be better, I will say this, and
Nestor Aparicio 1:00:23
part of this is also, I donโt expect owners to lose 10s of millions of dollars every year, either. But we also know dirty secrets, they never lose, but, but Right? They never, they never lose already. Said that too. Heโs already right. So thatโs my point. Is, if you want 100 million cheap for five years for fun, just for fun, you get the money back out there. Nothing, right? And the whole thing would be worth more because youโd have one Soto on the bill, but youโd have the best players here. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I that that is, see,
Luke Jones 1:00:52
one thing Iโll say that, I think, and I mentioned, and, you know, weโve gone way long here, and thatโs fine, because we donโt talk too much baseball this time of year, which is part of the problem, to your point, Iโm not going to disagree with that, but thatโs also, weโre talking about all tonightโs game, dude, right? But thatโs also, and the baseball offseason slower in general. I mean, the Dodgers, you know, the Dodgers might, they might sign one Soto, they havenโt done it yet, right? And, and so many of these free agents out there are waiting to see what happens with the biggest fish. I mean, thatโs, thatโs how this works in baseball. But I guess now I lost my train of thought, Great,
Nestor Aparicio 1:01:27
thatโs all right, Iโve been at it a long time. Iโve just have a whole lot off season to think it through. Youโll text me later and be like I and another point is youโre, yeah, itโs, how dare you accuse me of Stockholm syndrome when I might have it? Well for watching, weโve all been for me to think that theyโre the Yankees. Theyโre the Red Sox. Theyโre the Dodgers we get we have. Weโre farm system for them. Dude, this goes back to that no offense, dude, you werenโt even on the planet when Reggie Jackson and Don Baylor and Bobby rich and Doug descent season, Fred Lynn, all these guys were going other places, and my fatherโs trying to explain Charlie Finley to me. Man, you know what I mean? Like, I was 12 when they went on strike. Man, Iโve had this has been in my blood since birth, I imagine on the radio since Iโve been 15. So like, Iโm into this, but I also Iโm realistic. I met the guy. He doesnโt know anything about baseball, and heโs gonna do whatever they tell him to do thatโs good, that he has a good
Luke Jones 1:02:21
general manager, then, yeah. I mean, right? You you run the if you have someone who knows about baseball, you run the risk of him being Jerry Jones. You run the risk of him being Peter Angelos in the late 90s, who thought he know knew a lot about baseball, right? So Iโm okay with having an owner that doesnโt know a whole lot about baseball, unless they donโt have good people running it for them, and you know, thatโs thatโs ultimately, look, basically one
Nestor Aparicio 1:02:45
soda would be a mistake. I just think heโd be expensive.
Luke Jones 1:02:49
I never suggested heโd be a mistake either. I guess for me, a couple points, and the one point I was going to make here, one thing they need this is part of the problem, and part of what they need to do a better job of, and they they do this way better on social media than they had. I think thatโs something theyโve done on us. And, you know, Iโm not saying thatโs the end all be all, but itโs something that theyโve done better the last couple years. I think people that have done that for them on some of their video point, they had a whole network for 20 years and couldnโt figure out what to do with right? But part of this is, you know, some of what Iโm pushing back on here is, I hear everything youโre saying about Juan Soto. And look, Juan Soto is an unbelievable player. Heโs known his way to the Hall of Fame assuming he has a long enough career to do it, you know, I mean, heโs that kind of guy. Heโs
Nestor Aparicio 1:03:34
and you donโt have to give up guys on the farm to get him. Bob understood,
Luke Jones 1:03:39
theyโre all there are also a lot of other really good players you could sign there that arenโt going to come going to cause are going to cost a 13 year commitment and and all that as well. But part of the issue here that they need to do a better job of is they already have their Juan Soto in gunner Henderson. And I donโt mean that in terms of you canโt sign another good player. What I mean is you have someone who already is a young superstar at age 23 that you should be marketing like a superstar at age 23 and so so youโre youโre talking about it through the lens of not just adding a really dynamic, amazing baseball player, but also using that player to sell to your fan base. My point is you already have gunner Henderson and Adley rutschman And guys to sell to your fan base. Start with doing a better job of selling them to your fan base. And then, yes, we can talk about augmenting and all of that as well. So so I think for that part of it, and the other, you know, my final point that I wanted to make, because Iโve brought this up, and you even brought it up part of what I you know, my assessment here, in trying to anticipate what this is going to look like and what the vision is going to be, is also keeping in mind where Mike Elias and where sigma Idell originated, St Louis. St Louis let Albert pool host walk now. Albert Paul host was much older than Juan Soto is at this point. So I donโt want to say itโs a. Apples to Apples, because itโs not but the point is, they looked at a decision that was wildly unpopular and maybe hurt them from a baseball standpoint for maybe a year or two at most, just looking at how Albert pull holes career arc played out in LA with
Nestor Aparicio 1:05:17
11. I want to see what they did in all those years, because that would be an interesting, you know, thatโs an interesting. They
Luke Jones 1:05:24
were in the World Series. Soon thereafter, they lost to the Red Sox in 13 so but, but again, thereโs a case, and itโs the same thing. Itโs not just the moves you make. Sometimes itโs the moves that you donโt make, right? And I think, for an organization like the Orioles, who, yes, I expect more from and I do want them to raise the bar.
Nestor Aparicio 1:05:45
The next couple years, they lost the NLCS in 12 and seven games. They almost went to the World Series. They lost the World Series in 13. They lost the championship series in five games in 14. They they did okay. You know what I mean, like, so.
Luke Jones 1:06:00
So again, the point here is look, in a vacuum, yeah, they could go out and sign Juan Soto, and I look, if they, if we find out, and Iโm sending out the wnst text, and weโre all shocked that the Orioles sign Juan Soto, Iโll happily come on here and say, Nestor. I was totally wrong. And I give you credit, because theyโre thinking in terms of landing a big fish. My goodness, it doesnโt get bigger than that, short of sunny Otani last off season. I just donโt expect that to happen. That said, I donโt want them, and nor do I expect them, nor is it remotely acceptable for them to continue to operate as they have. You know, as they as Mike Elias was under Johnny well, then
Nestor Aparicio 1:06:38
there better before bags of donuts under the tree. There better be a starter, a reliever. They better actually get out in LA and bring the outfielder in and make Santander happy to have 14 players with nine positions. I mean literally, because theyโre not signing gunner, I donโt think. And if that, if thatโs the signing, that somehow, some way, they get an extension to give him enough money to keep him around, and thatโs the apple of their eye, and thatโs what they want to do. Thatโs cool, you know? I mean, thatโs good, but I also know that they canโt guarantee him any more than you can guarantee me that Adley rutman is not going to be the biggest bus since EARL WILLIAMS, like I donโt know. I mean, by the way, letโs take a break. Weโll come back talk football. Weโll do we get all off season. You and I could do at least 3040, minutes just on rushman and on this, how uniquely, unbelievably, bizarrely weird all of this has been for 90 days at the end of the year, and how they have to pound sand in the off season where, you know, heโs not getting the extension, right. So, I mean, we would have been thinking that way a year ago. So they got, you know, they didnโt score any runs in the playoffs. They got uppity fans. They have empty seats. They have a new person who doesnโt know her way down Pratt street. They have an owner thatโs sort of here with a lot of money, that I have a lot of expert, you know, my bar has been raised by the fact that heโs here. So, you know, Iโm trying to get out of Stockholm and saying, Okay, I donโt have the Angelo syndrome, whatever you would call that, which is, everything youโve pointed out, and everything that it is, whatโs it going to be? And thatโs my question. Iโll leave that for Katie Griggs, Iโll let you yell at me later. Iโll buy you Pizza, pizza. Johnโs make you feel better. That sounds good.
Luke Jones 1:08:18
Thatโs and look, itโs all love. I just the Stockholm you know,
1:08:21
I didnโt appreciate being lumped in with everyone else on that, because I think there are, thereโs a lot of nuance even within that group that we had to lower our expectations. You saw who was running it right?
Nestor Aparicio 1:08:34
So now thatโs shape. My expectation was to get a media pass back. That hasnโt changed. My expectation was, if theyโre gonna move the wall back. I donโt mean a Friday zoom or whatever for your purposes. Iโm sort of like it was sort of shameful, hiding from it. We made a mistake. We made a boom, weโre over correcting. You know, weโre admitting a mistake. We donโt make mistakes. They own your mistake. Own it out on Pratt Street. Letโs talk about it, because talking about itโs good. You want people talking about your baseball team not hiding it on a Friday afternoon, and that is part of the Stockholm syndrome of well, weโre a little ashamed of this, and we made a mistake, and it might associate us with Peter or the old you know, we all saw the old regime.
Luke Jones 1:09:13
You know what? I was just I know, I know. We want to wrap this up. They should have just not said anything. And then everyone show up on opening day and be like, wait a second, why is the wall moved in? That would actually been really funny.
Nestor Aparicio 1:09:25
I donโt know. You know, Iโm kidding. You know what I want them to be, what they canโt be, which is transparent, out in front local, regular people, honest, accountable, you know, pick up the phone like, thatโs what the Orioles were in my childhood. Thatโs what built the Orioles. Itโs not what itโs been the last 30 years, the Ravens went through a long period where thatโs what they were when they got here. Weโve argued logos and bees and and all of that stuff two weeks ago. Um, you know, Iโm from a different era in that way. But there are 10,000 empty seats, and they. Got to get somebody back, and it might as well be me, and Iโm holding my credit card. My last nameโs Aparicio, and Iโm wearing an orange Jersey in the middle of November when you would much rather be talking about is Justin Tucker gonna kick it straight? Whatโs happening to Lamar? Horrible, too. Heโs Luke. Iโm Nestor. Weโre Baltimore positive. Stay with us. Weโll argue more in the next segment. I.