Soon transitioning into a life after political service, Congressman John Sarbanes tells Nestor about his vision for his next chapter after 16 years serving the 3rd District emphasizing his commitment to civics, democracy, health, and the environment.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
baltimore, work, district, day, country, congressman, part, crab cake, run, maryland, place, congress, life, fixes, thought, city, john sarbanes, oyster, lobbyist, good
SPEAKERS
Nestor Aparicio, John Sarbanes
Nestor Aparicio 00:00
Welcome home. We are wnst tassel, Baltimore, Baltimore, positive. We are positively in the mecca of crab cakes. It’s the Maryland crab cake tour. It’s all presented. I gotta say this Congressman sarbj finally got the Maryland scratch, also the Maryland lottery. So they’re here now. They’re here for the rest of the fall. I’ll be giving them away. Folks are lining up down here at fates. It is all brought to you by the Maryland lottery, in conjunction with our friends at Jiffy through multi friends at Jiffy, Luke MultiCare, we are getting out on the road. Luke’s doing ravens and Orioles. I was gonna tell Luke to come down today at a press conference. John Harbaugh, Orioles are in town. We’re worried about the postseason. We’re worried about the Yankees next week and the cowboys and the bills and all that. We got business to do. The good congressman is outgoing. This is your favorite place. So this is your out. This is your exit interview with me, Congressman Sarbanes from the third You’re not my district, but I tried to explain to someone what the third district was, and I said, it’s sort of the route 100 district, right? Like, like I was on route 100 last night, going to Columbia, up in that area. And above there, it’s really Severna Park to sort of Mount Airy, and it’s sort of yours looks the least gerrymandered of all of them,
John Sarbanes 01:05
I think, which is funny, because mine used to be the most gerrymandered looking. You may remember, we’ve been through two redistricting since I’ve been in office. I got in there in 2007 we had a redistricting in 2010 then we had another one in 2020 so your your the shape of your district changes. The last time, just just recently, it changed pretty dramatically. I used to be spread across five different jurisdictions. Now I’m in three. And mostly it’s Anne Arundel County, parts of it, and then all of Howard County. I never had a whole county inside my district before? Well, I’m having
Nestor Aparicio 01:44
an oyster everywhere. Had an oyster in Howard County, in your district, at Columbia mall, at the walrus Alaska oyster shooter. We’re here at failings. I’m in the middle of this crazy oyster tour. But this is your favorite crab cake. This is your place. It’s everybody’s
John Sarbanes 01:56
favorite crab cake, from what I can figure. And it should be. This is a landmark. And it’s, it’s a beautiful thing to see how they have continued to anchor this place, this culture, here in Baltimore, it’s a point of pride fades. Always has been, will continue to be, you can’t beat Nancy
Nestor Aparicio 02:17
staring at Yes, you know the night she is, I saw you, listen. I saw you. Was the grand opening here. It was a nighttime they kind of shut the whole market down. Probably 800 people here, all sorts of people here, electeds and friends and celebrities and BJ star. And Dami sent me to her mom, and her mom was the celebrity. Dad was here that night. And I said to Nancy, said, I’m good. This is going to be my new set over here in the corner. And she said, that’s great, because I’m staring at you. And I said, remove. She said to me, she walked me over here. And she said, I want you to know when you’re doing your show. See that picture? That’s not the real pictures. Me wagging my finger at you. So she’s here on Saturdays. You drop
John Sarbanes 02:55
a napkin on the floor. She’s coming right out of that picture after you see I’m
Nestor Aparicio 03:00
Baltimore positive, right? And I’ve seen you in the old location, and you’ve gone on about your when your brother lands here, the first place he comes with the suitcases is fatally to get crab cakes. And the redevelopment of the market and the fact that it’s kind of now put together. You came in, I was like, Hey, go to the bathroom, Cox. You’re like that, and I’m like, now, take a walk. And it made you walk through here. And you’re like, where’s the bathroom? And I’m like, downstairs, around the corner, and you came back up here. The first thing you said is, wow, look at this place. I mean, this must be the first time you it’s only been open a couple months, really, but it’s happened. It’s when we see Baltimore paws about things that are getting better about our city. I’m in this city three, four days a week. I was at the Oyster festival in Fells Point, walking around the harbor all of these and there’s questions in the harbor place this. We have issues. But there are things getting better, not just the baseball team,
John Sarbanes 03:48
and there’s things that represent an expression of confidence in in the present of the city, but also in the future of the city. I mean, you don’t make the kind of commitments that were made here in terms of the whole market. And you certainly don’t make the kind of commitments that fatales made unless you believe in the future of the city. And every time somebody stands up and makes that kind of down payment or investment in the future, it’s good for the whole city, and it keeps us moving forward. So yeah, you know, on any given day there’s going to be challenges, that’s what cities are, sure. So it makes them interesting. But if you net out with forward progress, and I think the city is doing that, then it’s a good feeling. John
Nestor Aparicio 04:37
Sarbanes is our guest. He’s the good congressman from the third he will become citizen, although Mueller says, you’re always a Congressman, I always say everybody’s a mayor. Everybody’s whatever their title was, they keep for life. First of how you feeling? How’s your health, how’s life? Give my audience, or people that care about you that haven’t caught up, because I haven’t caught up with you in a while, and then that night I saw you here, we shared an oyster or whatever. But I don’t know that we like. Caught up. You know, how are you? It’s been about a year and a half since you’ve been on the show? No,
John Sarbanes 05:03
I’m doing well. I’m feeling good. I’m trying to stay in shape. You know, I I swim at the YMCA three times a week. John, how you like to hear that the wife Maryland? Yes, indeed. And which, that’s another great organization. They do really good work throughout the region and including in Baltimore City. You’re
Nestor Aparicio 05:21
not just a spokesperson, you’re you’re a customer. Yeah, I
John Sarbanes 05:24
know what it’s all about. I’m in there working out. So, you know, I feel like I’m in in decent health. You got to knock on wood every time you say that. I feel like I’m in a good frame of mind in terms of, this is the right moment and time for me to transition to some new things when I got into this business of politics. Well, I’ve been in it my whole life, because my family was in it. But when I got when I got in as an elected official 18 years ago, I didn’t think it would be the last thing I did. I mean, I thought, you know, there’ll be something else on the other side. And if you’re thinking that way, you get to a certain point, you’re looking at the clock on the wall, and you’re like, well, if I’m gonna do some some other things, I better get started on it.
Nestor Aparicio 06:09
My 50s too. So I mean, I’m 56 and I’ve changed what I’m and I’m seeing so many people, not just people like Dutch and, you know, Johnny, oh, people on that, that want these gigs that you have, but people that say, well, that’s a politician for life, and you’ll be there for life, maybe serves people for life, like Ben Cardin did or but like for you to make a decision on it, sometimes that decision gets made for you by the electorate, right, in different ways. Well, you
John Sarbanes 06:33
know what, what you’re saying is absolutely true. It’s relatively unusual, because, you know, I’ve been looking back at the record now, as a member of Congress leaving, you’re kind of interested. How did other people leave? And it’s kind of unusual to say, I’ve been here for a while. I feel good about it. I don’t know yet exactly the next thing, but I’m ready to make the move now. I’m going to finish out my term, you know, kind of run through the tape, which has always been my style. I’m 62 What’s your last day? January? January. 4 day, okay? And like you say, next day, I’m a civilian. I want to keep my hand in service. I want to keep working on some of these things that I’ve taken a deep dive on, civics and democracy, work, health, mental health, physical health. I’ve done a lot of work in that area, and environmental, you know, making sure we’re doing the right thing for the Chesapeake Bay and for our planet and all the rest of it. So, you know, maybe that, maybe the headline is, I’m leaving Congress, but I’m not walking away from this work. I care about figuring out exactly kind of, what’s the structure, what’s the way that I push that forward into a new space? That’s kind of what I’m thinking through now. And then, I’ll be able to do some other things as well. So I’m excited about it. You know, it’s a new chapter. So,
Nestor Aparicio 07:53
I mean, we’re almost the same age. You’re a little bit older than me, and last time you were here, and I’ll encourage folks, you regaled me with Watergate tales of your childhood and your dad coming home from Watergate, and this is before, like Trump might have been President. The last time we talked pulled that story and we were talking about that’s before the insurrection, before jam, before all of that, that. And I know I’ve had you on via zoom after, yeah, during, we were wearing mask and whatnot. Did you ever think of doing anything else. Did you dream of being President United States being because you mean, you went as high as you were going to go, your dad had that thing going on. But there’s a thought that, like, all I’ve ever wanted to do, literally, was sports in Baltimore. And when I get into my 50s, I start to think, like, all right, what else am I going to do? And I never really thought about doing anything else. And I would think, in the middle of what you’ve been doing, the amount of focus it’s taken to be what you are and what you’re running for and being a public figure from the time you were a kid, really, did you ever think of doing anything else? Was there ever another path for you other than the one that was laid by your family that I would say you honored it, but you followed it Sure. For
John Sarbanes 09:01
starters, keep in mind, before I got into elected office, the first 18 years of my career was private sector as a lawyer, working with nonprofits, working for six years with Nancy Grasmick over at the State Department education, doing education work. So I had a career before I got to Congress.
Nestor Aparicio 09:25
Did you never want to run? Or was it always
John Sarbanes 09:28
that’s a good question. So you know, if you’re in a political family, it’s kind of out there as a possibility. Sometimes the next generation in a political family is allergic to that. They’re like, I don’t want to do that. I never had that, but at the same time, I didn’t just take for granted or assume that I would choose that path. And so I did these other things, and I did them based on my interest stuff that I worked on my whole life. You know, I’m interested in healthcare. That’s what I did as a lawyer. I was interested. And community and pro bono work. And so I’d work with nonprofits, because I feel like if you’re going to go into politics, if you want to have a political voice, it can’t come out of thin air. Has to be anchored in something you believe in, service that you’ve done, which is why I always ask, particularly young people, you know, if they’re out there on the street protesting, more power to them. But show me how your protest is connected to some service that you’ve done. You understand what I’m saying. There has to be a connection there. So I didn’t assume I would go into politics, but I also didn’t like, you know, rule it out. And so when the end, it wasn’t the North Star Right? Exactly. Okay, alright. And so when the opportunity presented itself, back in 2006 because Ben Cardin decided to run for my father’s seat, because my father was retiring, so his seat opened up cardins, and I thought, well, if I’m ever going to do something like this, I ought to give it a good look right now, and what made
Nestor Aparicio 11:03
you, what drew you to it, knowing the shortcomings and the long comings, and I guess two decades later, to say, think you feel like it was a good decision, is when you went, no regrets, right? Okay, fair enough. No
John Sarbanes 11:14
regrets. Well, pull me towards it. It was a way to to kind of make an impact at another level, and also pull together like, like I said, I was in the public sector, working with the State Department education. I was in the nonprofit sector. I was heading up the Public Justice Center as the president of the board for a number of years. And then I was in the private sector working with like, healthcare institutions and so forth. So I’m in all these different parts of sort of community life. And I thought, Well, being a member of Congress is a chance to kind of pull all that together into one day job. And it turned out that way, for sure. But going in, I wasn’t thinking, I’m going to stay till they carry me out. I was saying, let me see if I can make a contribution. I feel like I’ve done good work in a number of areas. I feel very satisfied with it. But, you know, it’s time to do something else, and frankly, it’s good to get new blood in to these,
Nestor Aparicio 12:14
these places. You
John Sarbanes 12:15
know what I’m saying? You know, why should you stay there for life? And we got good people coming behind us. I’m very I’m very happy about the woman who’s going to succeed me in the third district, Sarah alfresh. She’s a state senator of Annapolis. You know, Maryland has no women right now in our in our congressional delegation, well, that’s about to change. The two senators are men and all eight members of the House, and that is going to change, because I think we’re going to get Senator also Brooks in the United States Senate. I think we’re going to, we’re definitely going to get Congresswoman Alfred and Congresswoman Delaney out in Western Maryland. So that’s the right direction for things to go in. And I don’t need to stick around and hang on to this seat longer than I need to, you know, I can go do some other stuff.
Nestor Aparicio 13:01
What’s best part of the job? Sarah, sitting here right now, what’s your the best make me Sarah and say, All right, I’m doing this job. What? What am I going to love? What am I going to hate? What’s my challenges and what’s what do you feel like you have in the red zone, in a general sense, from your work that could be followed through in
John Sarbanes 13:17
Yes. So the best part of the job is the fact that on any given day, you’ve got the top people in whatever the field is coming into your office talking to you. You’re getting testimony from experts on all of these things that are confronting our country. So you get a, you get this, this very diverse, full bodied picture of what is happening out there in the community, what’s happening in cities like Baltimore, what’s happening in our country. So if you have a lot of different interests, which I do, you know you’re like a pig in mud, right? It feeds your mind, yeah? So that’s the best part of the job. It really is another important part of it is just this opportunity to serve people through constituent work. So, you know, we go to Washington, we work on the big legislative initiatives. We try to do the right thing for the country, but the meat and potatoes of this is constituent service, and you can really change somebody’s life if you pay attention. And I’m very proud that my team and I, because really it was my team that did it. We’ve always been timely in responding to constituent inquiries, mail, doing case work. I mean, if you get if you get veterans benefits for somebody who didn’t realize what they were entitled to, you can change their life overnight, and we’ve been able to do that over and over and over, a great
Nestor Aparicio 14:51
example. But what else do people what would I call my congressman? About me? You know, I guess I should ask Johnny, because he’ll, he’ll be coming in where I am. But
John Sarbanes 14:59
so. Social Security, Medicare, anything, anything involving a federal agency. It’s our responsibility to help you navigate that, and I think we’ve done a good job. And, you know, rock John,
Nestor Aparicio 15:12
because, like a lot of people don’t really, I’m 55, years old, another sitting talking to y’all, yeah, I don’t feel like I needed to drop a dime, that I needed something from you, and I don’t know what I’m you know, what point do you call the county? Do you call the state? Do you call your congressman? I mean, I’ve had Senator Cardin center, Van Hollen. Never. I sit next to him and I’m like, I don’t have anything personally for you. But if you did, but if I did, I wonder what those needs are and how, how I would even know, to your point, some people don’t even know what they’re what the wall is, or what they’re entitled now, what,
John Sarbanes 15:41
what’s good is we collaborate with state officials local officials, so something like a social security question might come into a county executive, and they’re like, well, that’s federal, but we’ll put you in touch with Sarbanes office, because we work with him every day. Vice versa. Someone come in to me, you know, there’s a pothole out there that needs to be fixed. I can say, well, that’s not federal, but let me get you the right person locally who can help you. So we tag team to make sure that we are serving the public. And the most rewarding thing for me has been when people come up to me as I’m moving around and they say, you know, I called your office. I had a problem, and in this case, they say you weren’t able to solve it. In the end, there just wasn’t possible. But I’m so appreciative, because your staff got back to me on a weekly basis. They let me know what was going on. They were definitely listening to me, working for me, and what you realize is people just want to be seen and heard and respected, so even when you can’t get the solution for them, the fact that you’re treating them with the respect, that’s a service in and of itself, and you, and that’s just about who you are and how you project yourself as a public servant. That’s the number one thing. So those are so those are the parts of the job that are really rewarding. The thing I’m hoping that Congress will do after I’m gone from Congress is finally get at some point this democracy legislation across the finish line, the freedom to vote Act, which I’m privileged to be the author of what’s it do? It makes sure people get the ballot box every two years without having to run an obstacle course, because it raises or take a day off of work or whatever it’s like. It’s designed to make it easy in America to register and cast your vote. Number two, it fixes partisan gerrymandering across the country. People can’t stand that, the idea that politicians. How does it fix it? It fixes it by setting up these independent criteria that determine whether a district has been drawn fairly or not. Because, right now, in a lot of places, based on what, based on No no, it’s based on criteria. Well, it’s based on formulas relative to turnout, relative to registration, other kinds of things. So you can tell looking at a state based on historical patterns, whether the districts actually reflect the popular vote or whether they’ve been sliced and diced in a way to give one party an advantage over the other. And this happens all across the country,
Nestor Aparicio 18:18
and based on who’s on charge in charge in
John Sarbanes 18:21
particular state. So this would come up uniform standards that would apply to congressional districts everywhere. And I think the result is you’d get a fair representation, actually in the House of Representatives of what the popular vote looks like out in the country. And then the last thing we do, and this is to me, in some ways the most important is fight the corruption. People are so sick of money having all this insider influence in Washington, anywhere they want to push back, they don’t feel respected by that, and so we have provisions in there that would require disclosure of all this dark money that’s out there. People know it’s out there. They can’t see where it’s coming from. So we would require transparency, and we would set up a whole new opportunity to fund campaigns through small donor matching systems. You give $25 there’s a matching fund that comes in behind we have the city do that this year. We do a lot, a lot of jurisdictions, locally and states are stepping into this because it’s a power move on the part of the people and the public saying, wait a second, instead of lobbyists and big donors bankrolling campaigns, and then you answer to them when you get in there, right? How about we step up behind this? And then you can keep answering to us at which makes perfect sense. It’s kind of like if you’re, if you’re at dinner, and you’re the you’re the politician, and on the left, you got a lobbyist sitting with you, and on the right, you’ve got, like the public there, and the check comes, lobbyist reaches over and says, I’ll take. That, and the public says, no, no, we got this because we want this guy to answer to us. Well, that’s
Nestor Aparicio 20:07
the way it was set up in 1776 right? I mean,
John Sarbanes 20:10
dependent on the people. This clearly
Nestor Aparicio 20:13
has changed in the modern era where a Saudi Arabian Prince could fall in love with a congressional district in some key state, and just coming and saying,
John Sarbanes 20:23
Yeah, foreign money can flow if we don’t stop it, but big corporate money. I mean, look, why do you think the pharmaceutical industry has so much influence in Washington or big tech or the oil and gas industry or the gun lobby they purchase? Because the money comes pouring in, and we got to break that dependency and get the voice of everyday Americans back on the field of their own. They’re they’re up in the bleachers, and they’re looking down there, and they’re seeing all these power players running running the plays, and they’re like, where do we belong? They want to step onto the field and be power players everyday person. That’s the way it ought to be. So that legislation freedom to vote, that I’ve been working on 10 years, if we could finally get that over the finish line. Now to do it, we need what we call the trifecta, because the Republicans aren’t interested in doing this legislation. So we need a we need a Democrat in a White House. We need a demo. We need a Democratic House and Democratic Senate, and then we’ll get it done, but it’ll be good for everybody, not just Democrats. Will be good for everybody.
Nestor Aparicio 21:29
You would think at some point the damage that Trump has done would begin to affect elections, and that part of the balance, maybe the gerrymandering alone in other states that are completely red, no matter what he says or does. Where were you on? Where were you on? January, 6 congressman, sir, you were there
John Sarbanes 21:48
were you? I was in my office. I was not in the capital. Thank God. Like some of my colleagues, like some of people I talked to, yeah, I was in my office. We were getting instructions, you know, stay away from the windows, stay behind your desk, because they didn’t know what might come lobbing through these windows and so forth. It was a very scary moment, and very kind of surreal and disorienting, like the idea that the capital could be breached.
Nestor Aparicio 22:16
I think three and a half years later, there’s a large sector of the population that has really some level of this. I’m still in disbelief that it happened, and I’m in disbelief he’s not under a prison because of it, and could deflect in some way to say it wasn’t my party. Yeah, like I see the ads being run now. I think as a citizen, I’m if my parents came back to life, your father, they would be aghast at what’s happened here.
John Sarbanes 22:41
Let me tell you something. My father died on December 6, December 7 of 2020 My father always had good timing, so he lived long enough to see Joe Biden, his friend, get elected in November that November, but he passed away before the insurrection. Okay, so he didn’t have to see that, because that would have crushed him to see this place where he spent 36 years of his life working that capitol building overrun on that day. I don’t know how you would have processed it.
Nestor Aparicio 23:22
Wanted to overthrow our government, like literally, that’s what happened.
John Sarbanes 23:25
Yeah, they did. They did not want to accept the results of an election. And this is what’s changed, by the way. Now it’s part of the standard playbook, not just to run a hard campaign and try to win on election day, but after Election Day to contest the results. This is in the playbook now, and that’s a new and dangerous thing, because that undermines this whole thing that we’ve been so proud of as Americans, which is the peaceful transfer of power, right? You run a good campaign, you do the best you can, but if you lose, you step back and say, All right, the other guy won. The other woman won. And maybe I’ll take a shot next time disinformation campaigns
Nestor Aparicio 24:11
were always contested in courts in this country, decided by but at the end of the day, we find out what’s real information and what’s not. The water’s incredibly muddy, and it comes even more muddy when the day after the election, everybody screams, unfair fight. Yeah,
John Sarbanes 24:27
exactly right. And to your point, the disinformation that’s out there makes it so hard for people to figure out what the heck is going on. And the other thing is, people are picking and choosing where they’re getting their news from. So that just locks us all into our silos, and it makes it hard. I mean, this is, to me, this is the only way we’re going to get back to some kind of civil society. Is is like one on one, in person, same. Space, real talk, what
Nestor Aparicio 25:02
is true, what is a fact, exactly?
John Sarbanes 25:04
And I can see you saying, and I know you’re not a deep fake, because I’m standing next to you, right? You know what I’m saying, but it’s harder and harder for people to get into those places. You know, in the old days, you had the bull rose and, you know, the clambakes and all these things where, where people would get together as a community and share with each other. And they might not agree on politics all the time, but they had relationships. That was the connective tissue. Now more and more people their citizens, but more and more now, people are kind of staying inside their own ecosystems, and they make assumptions about the other person. You know, you think X, Y and Z, I don’t want to talk to you. That makes it very hard for us to come together as a country. So that that remains a huge, huge challenge, and we see it play out every day in these elections and otherwise
Nestor Aparicio 25:59
Congress. John Sarbanes with third district. I got good news for John, because this is his favorite crab cake in the world, and Damien has brought it on. We’re gonna be having crab cakes. It’s a Maryland crab cake tour. It’s all brought to you by our friends at the Maryland lottery. Got the fresh Raven scratch offs. You get the first one, although you’re not allowed to have it. Ben Cardin explained that to me, that that’s, that, that’s, that’s so you can play with it, you can look at it, but you can’t have it. We’re gonna come back here and continue to talk more about to talk more about democracy and more about your outgoing this. You’re not running for anything. You’re
John Sarbanes 26:27
just we’re doing the exit having to raise any money either. Well, that we’ll talk
Nestor Aparicio 26:31
about that exit interview. John Sarbanes, our good congressman from the south part of Baltimore, Anne Roanoke County, Howard County. And I call it the route 100 route from the airport across We’re back here at fate. Lee’s back for more right after this, we’re Baltimore positive. Wnst you.
