It’s always a pleasure to spend time talking Yankees baseball and college basketball madness with New York Post columnist Mike Vaccaro but this time it was the legacy, writing and relationships of the late, great John Feinstein that fires up the reporter in all sports newspaper men of an evaporating generation. Words on Woj Bombs, the St. Bonaventure Bonnies and the legacy of George Steinbrenner with the venerable Gotham sage.
Nestor Aparicio and Mike Vaccaro discuss the legacy of John Feinstein, who passed away before St. Patrick’s Day. Aparicio shares his extensive archive of Feinstein’s work and recalls their personal interactions. Vaccaro, a friend of Feinstein’s, praises his storytelling skills and accessibility. They also touch on the impact of Feinstein’s books, including his work on the Baltimore Ravens. The conversation shifts to sports journalism, with Vaccaro reflecting on his time at St. Bonaventure and his current work at the New York Post. They conclude with a discussion on the future of the Baltimore Orioles and the challenges of maintaining a competitive baseball team in a smaller market.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
John Feinstein, sports writing, Baltimore Orioles, Yankees baseball, March Madness, St. Bonaventure, New York Post, sports journalism, Final Four, sports books, sports ownership, revenue models, sports history, sports storytelling, sports media.
SPEAKERS
Mike Vaccaro, Nestor Aparicio
Nestor Aparicio 00:01
Welcome home. We are W, N, S, T. Am 1570 Towson, Baltimore. We are Baltimore. Positive. I got the Maryland crab cake tour out on the road. We’re going to have some lottery scratch offs to give away on Friday. Going to be a pizza Johns and Essex. I know some of you on the west side the north side the north side. Haven’t been over to the east side, so we got to get you over to Pete Jones, Dave shining, one of my favorite sports writers, ball time, will be joining us on Friday, Luke Jones, and here going to do some baseball things. I think Todd Schiller is going to come by and talk about the law and democracy and just little things like that. Our former delegate councilman, and we’re going to be doing that on Friday. And then we’re off to Toronto next week for opening day. Luke and I are going north of the border. I I’m I Rick Emmett from triumph told me to wear the Canada hat, bring the passport, do everything nice. Get in, get out. Maybe they let me back in. I’m not sure. We lost a friend this week, and I’ve tried to reach and to as many people as I can who knew John Feinstein in some way. I’ve reached some Washington friends of mine, so I guess over the next couple of weeks, we turned the entire radio station over to John on Friday when he passed on St Patrick’s Day weekend, and when I went to look I was astonished at how much time John had given me over the last 20 years of my life, where, literally, every time I ever text him, he text me back, he came on, he gave me a half an hour, 54 minutes into a conversation, we would have done a half an hour piece, and I had 22 hours of John Feinstein tape. And on Thursday night, before I went to bed, I said, I got to run that because all of it was sort of evergreen. They were stories that didn’t have anything to do with this weekend’s brackets or this weekend’s Redskin game, or capitals game or any of that kind of stuff. It was storytelling and along my timeline. And I guess this is how the algorithm works with zucchini, with the South African fear is that things pop up on my timeline, and so many people love John Feinstein. I’m pissed at John, and I know you’re out there listening, John. You’d sign the book when he sent it to me, but I have all of these books that John wrote, including I’m gonna reach the mark Messina this week about his brother, and Messina Glavin book, and all of the I can’t reach the Bobby Knight, but I do know some people Mike for Caro identified himself. And there were a lot of people saying, Feinstein, it was this and that. And I’m like, Dude, give it a break. He’s dead. I mean, give him a day or two to be not, you know, like, I like, John was always irascible. He was curmudgeonly in the greatest sense of the way. And I think most of the old ones that wanted to be Oscar Madison. Were Mike for Caro joins us from the New York Post. He identified himself as a friend of John Feinstein. So I’m beginning with the friends. We’ll get to the foes later, and John would appreciate it that way. You know, as I wrote and when Vinnie Peron wrote about my friend Clem Florio at the Washington Post, we lost the fort’s nature. You know what I mean? Like, he was just a really transcendent fellow, John Feinstein.
Mike Vaccaro 03:06
When Feinstein was in the room, he knew Feinstein was in the room. And, you know, you talked about having 22 hours of him from past, from past radio conversations I would have. That’s, that’s what it felt like to have dinner with John, because he had an opinion about everything. He knew everyone, and he loved telling stories. And you know, it wasn’t just that that makes you friends with somebody, but certainly it’s a nice way to start. He was just excellent company. I enjoyed every bit of my time there. I never worked with John. So I get it. I get it. You know, he could be a complicated guy. I understand that. I’m sure I’m considered that by some of the people that I work with. But you know what, you’ve
Nestor Aparicio 03:48
read my mail, obviously,
Mike Vaccaro 03:52
I mean in terms but just in terms of just having a conversation with somebody, there was nobody better, because he was engaged. He was never one of these guys, ever. And this is back when we first met, when I was working in a no place newspaper, and he was still already John Feinstein. And you know, he was never, never a guy who would talk to you in a crowded room with his head on a swivel, waiting to see who the next person to talk to. You know, somebody better, you know, more important, higher up the food chain than you. When he was talking to you, he was talking to you. And that was true when I first met him. That was when we was really to speak hero worship, on my part, and it was true over the next 30 or so years, when, you know, we became genuine friends, we’d have dinner every year at the Final Four where, you know, there’s, it’s kind of like Kevin having dinner with Prince Charles at King Charles at Buckingham Palace, right? Because that’s where all of his subjects were and and it was, it was a remarkable life, and I feel really blessed to have, you know, have been a part of it, and had him in part of my life. And I, I miss him so, so much, especially with March Madness, but this was his time of year. And, you know, he would revel in it. And so it’s just, it’s just, it’s difficult to imagine this going on without him here.
Nestor Aparicio 05:08
I don’t think there was a march. He didn’t do my show. I mean, I went back and I look, because it’s very easy to archive it on YouTube. Over the last dozen years, since I’ve been doing video and and I know I have tapes, you know, literal and many discs from that era before. And you said hero worship, dude, I talked to about you, to my wife last night, because you both have had health challenges in different ways. And I said to my wife, trying to reach to some people, to come on to sort of talk about John, because I’m not just gonna let this pass. I’m not gonna let him pass March week. And the people that didn’t like him to say that, the people that did like him and respected him professionally and all that. But there is something about guys like you and me who all we wanted to do was be Oscar Madison. That’s all. All I ever wanted to be was a sports writer. It’s all they’ve they’re putting Tom Davis into the Hall of Fame near the Orioles Hall of Fame. All I wanted to be was Tom Davis, who’s a local broadcaster here, or Vince Bagley, or Chris Thomas, who really was my inspiration, and really John Stedman and those people. And I, honestly, Mike, I literally, until, like, first off, the saint Bonaventure thing, I’m gonna get to that in a minute. But you’re, we’re the same age. I mean, I didn’t realize you. I thought you were older than me, because I think of you as a sort of venerable column this guy, but you kind of came in on the young and kind of like me and Rosenthal now. So I was Rosenthal’s understudy. 80 780-889-9091, at the paper when I was like the agate clerk, but I was covering hockey and in press rooms at the Capitol center, at bullets games, and covered Dr J and different things. I did a lot of different things, but I was the always young. So everybody that’s even my age, I think were older than me, but then I looked at him, like, in 1990 graduate college, I graduate 85 like, I’m thinking, like, We’re the same age. I met Feinstein when I was 17 years old at a bullets game. I went to a bullets nets game with Phil Jackman. And Jackman was just trying to teach me how to be a reporter, you know. And he had the the reporter, he was from Worcester, and he would say, you do the visitors. Hey, I’ll do the home this week. You do the visitors. Or he’d have a friend in the other locker say, you do the bullets tonight. They stunk, you know. So he would make me do locker. This is Phil jasner. This is Stephen A Smith early on. This is Feinstein, Christine, Brennan, Tom Boswell, Len Shapiro, like at the Capitol center, I’m a kid, and I go into that press room, and there’s a Poland over there, and Wes on cell. Was an executive then, and, you know, Jim Lyon was probably coaching the team, or maybe even before that, with like shoe and Bob fair, these legendary people. And Feinstein was just holding court mainly about the Redskins in that era, right? Because it’s mid 80s, and like all of that, he was larger than life when I was 17 years old. And then I found myself years later in this thing where he’s doing this book on Billick and the team, and I was that guy that I literally said to my wife all of the negative things you would say about John, and you’re the first piece I’m doing, so I’m getting to bear my soul a little bit with you, but like I would say to my wife, that arrogant Rick Feinstein is in on my chart. He’s in on the ravens, and I’m getting boxed that. Little did I know Chad Steele would throw me out two decades later, um, for living the dream, wanting to be Oscar Madison and John Stevin. But Feinstein from the minute he knew he was in my turf, and he’s like, What are you doing here? And I’m like, What are you doing here? And at some point, Billy said, no, no, no. He’s always here, like, and then after that, Feinstein’s like, oh, I sort of get it. Brian likes you. And Brian likes you. Give him after the games, and he gives it back. And then Feinstein got in on and all of a sudden, I said to my wife, by like, week six, I’m like, this is like, getting popcorn. I don’t even talk. I just let them go at it. And I’m now the guy chronicling what crazy stuff finds. They’d say in the Billick after games that I used to say, and now it’s a two on one, and the team took a dive at the end of the year, and I am, I was in on hard, you know, I was in on the end of the end, where he’s writing this book. And then after that, our relationship changed, like, from that moment forward, it became like, I want to come on your show and tell stories, because you tell me because. And then after that, the last 22 years of his life, Feinstein and I, I didn’t, I knew him as a hero worship like, but we hero worshiped all of those guys. I mean, dude, Howard Cosell, the one time in my life I saw him in the parking lot at the Preakness you know what I mean, that’s Feinstein was one of those guys, and he wasn’t so far our senior that he felt attainable to young sports writers, and mostly available because he was always available to me.
Mike Vaccaro 09:53
You know, his nickname was junior, which I always found funny, because, I mean, he was, you know, nine or 10 years old than I was 10 years old, I guess you. And it always seemed funny to call a guy that much older than me Junior, but I understood it, because he really always did relate more with the younger writers. I mean, he was, in no way was intimidated or scared of the older writers. And you know when, when he walked into the Washington Post, it was a it was an established cast of all stars. You know, coronavisor was there and and will bond would start around the same time. And he yelled with all of them and all and all the old timers too, and and reveled in that. And that was a hell of a section. Man reveled him being the kid on the staff that was able to, you know, to kind of fight for his place. And, you know, I had a very similar introduction to him as you did, almost an identical one. I mean, he was working on his Army Navy book a civil war in the fall of 95 and he would spend half his time at West Point and half his time in Annapolis. And our paths crossed a lot, because in those days, I was working for a paper in Middletown, New York. We were the paper that covered army and myself and our beat writer, Kevin Gleason, you know, I didn’t even have a period of wait and see that you had. I mean, he was immediately, you know, he immediately took us in, as if he would, you know, Bob Ryan and Dan Shaughnessy, if he ran to them covering the Red Sox game, you know, it didn’t matter what our status was. It never occurred to him to worry about what our status was. He knew that we, he mean, he saw that we, that our bylines were in the paper almost every day about West Point, that we knew we were talking about. And obviously, at first, he looked at us as resources, which we were, because, you know, he was, he was coming in cold. We both been covering the team for a couple of years, but, you know, and I mentioned this in my column the other day, you know, being around him when he was doing that book, it was like taking a graduate course level, and not just journalism, but specifically in reporting, and just seeing how, how he always had two second and third question immediately ready for his first question, how he, you know, would would manage to gain the trust of kids who, by then were, you know, 1520, years younger than him, and they stayed lifelong friends forever. I mean, Jim cantaloupe is a guy that I’m still friends with. He was a player on those Army team is a fierce, you know, this is a quintessential tough army football player, defensive player. And you know him, he and John became tight, even though, I mean, they couldn’t have been more, you know, diametrically opposed politically or philosophically on a lot of things. But you know, John had the gift of being able to allow you to open up and tell stories, and there’s nothing, no greater gift if you’re a storyteller, and you know, 44 books later, you understand that there was a reason why he was able to to produce such remarkable work. I mean, he would be the first person to tell you, you know, I’m never going to be remembered because of the way I put words together. I’m a fine writer, but I’m not, you know, I’m he’s, I’m not Tom Boswell, and you know, it didn’t matter, because the stories were so thoroughly researched and so intensely reported that he allowed the story to tell the story for him. And you know, there’s something to be said for that. That’s a great discipline, and there was done better at it. Because why wouldn’t you rely on that? He’s probably the best storyteller, and you’re one of the best storytellers, especially in sports that ever lived. So why not rely on that gift?
Nestor Aparicio 13:30
Mike vacaro is our guest. He is a columnist for the New York Post. You can find him anywhere. The car is a great name in Baltimore, because they make the best desserts. Yeah, I know you probably have. Made my pilgrimage. Yes, yeah, they did the desserts at my wedding as well. So, you know, get, get the wedding cookies are delicious. Um, you know, for John, she wrote a book on the ravens, right? So my story with him is seeing him in the 80s, reading him in the 90s. I’m an old newspaper head. So, as I said, a great section. I was a part of the evening sun, the morning sun, the news American how, even 30 years later, those relationships, even the other night, when I wrote about John, and I was sniffily and teary at dinner with my wife, and I ate 20 at night, I had a glass of wine, and I’m talking to my wife, and I started to, I’m like, I gotta go, right? You know, it’s what writers do. So I went upstairs and I started to write about John a little bit thinking about, you know, all of those that time in the 90s when the Redskins were on and the and the Orioles were on, and they were always up here because of Cal Ripken and you mentioned Boswell. I mean, all of the great everything that came from George Solomon and the Washington Post and the competition with the sun and some Baltimore people that went and worked in Washington. Tom lavero is going to come on later this week as one of those guys, but that’s on. And went to the time so back and forth. And I didn’t know you had Kansas City in your background. You had all this other stuff, and I knew about the West Point part. But there is a point where all of us run into each other, if we’ve done it, and I’ve done this since I was 50. Years old, hockey, basketball, football, mid college basketball finals. Course, I’ve done all of it. And when you run into people, there’s a big league in part, and there’s a hey, I’m working part. And but back in the day, when there were real newspapers, as John Eisenberg would say, that you know, the glory days of newspaper and journalism, and me wanting to be a columnist, and you wanted to be a columnist that the I did hero worship every every person that came to town, on every beat in every press box I was working it, no matter who it was. I wanted to know everybody, everything. I wanted to work at ESPN. I wanted to, like all of that. Feinstein was one of these guys that just sort of trucked along writing these books and columns books in college. I mean, he wrote 41 books. He only lived 70. I mean, it’s a book a year, every year of adulthood, literally, right? And they’re, they’re tubes. He didn’t sign this one. I wanted to point that out for you know, I don’t have a signed one, but I’ve read five or six. I’m not a golf guy, so I wouldn’t have been a guy to read the golf books, the Bobby not, I mean, season, the break. Everybody read that, but he wrote a raven book. And there’s only been three books ever written on the Ravens in 26 years that I know. I wrote two of them, and I wrote the first one like as a diary in 2001 we were so happy to have the team here and Ray Lewis and all of that stuff. By the time the second one came, John had written a great book on the ravens, even though it wasn’t a great season for the ravens, but it had all of this Billick Bucha D drama that wound up playing out to making Brian bill with my business partner when he got fired. But it was all in the book because he researched it all, and I read the book in 2005 and then I put the book down, and life went on. And I saw John. John did UMBC games and back, you know, we just saw each other here. There five of Maryland games, wherever. And I would always say to him, man, you’re a hell of a writer. I would always say that then when he would come on the show and whatnot. But then the Ravens with a Super Bowl. And I thought, Do I want to write a book? No, because you’ve written but you know, it’s not the smartest thing in the world to write a book. And I say that in all honor of Feinstein, who made a little money doing it, most of the rest of us have had to scuffle with the books in the trunk of the car for the next 10 years. But I was going to write a book, and everybody was hitting me, you got to write a book. I’m like, Okay, I’ll write a book. I own the station we had done well on the trip, I had three months of my life to say I’m going to write this book. And the first thing I did the firm, I swear to you, when I landed back from the Super Bowl in New Orleans after the parade was picked up his book and read it as fast and as hard as I could with a yellow marker. I think he signed that one for me. So I got to go find that one in the box, but I marked it up. And as I wrote my book, I decided to write it third person, completely from the outside as a writer, which is not my style as a columnist or whatever, but I wrote a third person book that was 550 pages, and all I did for the next four months was try to channel him. And I told my wife, I put the his book on the toilet. And when I visited, I would read it to get inspired. I would just read three or four pages of the pros and the way that the sentences become paragraphs. And I just would try to, when I was trying to profile Joe Flacco, all I could do was look at him profiling Kyle bowler and saying, How do I emulate that just a little bit? And, dude, I’m a writer, and you’re a writer, that is, I mean, there is no higher praise that I could pay to anyone to say when it came time for me to do a book, I swear, I tried to do it. I couldn’t do it like he could, but I tried to play the chords, man. You know, most
Mike Vaccaro 18:51
smart. I mean, if you’re going to if you want to be a great songwriter, you’re probably going to spend a little time seeing how Paul McCartney came about, making ADR to let it be. And if you want to be an actor, you probably want to study De Niro a little bit. So if you want to write a sports book, there’s literally nobody who was better at the craft than John Feinstein. So that’s that’s smart scouting on your part, Nestor, because you you want to learn from the best, and I
Nestor Aparicio 19:17
failed miserably, just so
Mike Vaccaro 19:20
you know, he provided what is the number 4144 however, many books he wrote. That’s when he that’s when, you know, you’re prolific, when you can’t necessarily put your finger on how many books a guy wrote, but he left a trail for us how to do it. And you know, that’s that’s an incredible legacy to leave. Among many other legacies that he’s leaving is just his work, which will, you know, stand in his stead forever? He’s told me
Nestor Aparicio 19:47
a bunch of stories, and I have 22 hours of it. Give me a story or two that are your favorites. I know you wrote about one last week, Bobby Knight, but what do you know about because Feinstein would say anything to me on the. Air. I mean, oh, my God. Like when he would come and do the show, it is, I it’s, it’s a gift to me that, if I want to know what he thought about anything. Dan Snyder, Peter, I have it all, because I’ve asked him about all of it. Bob the Woodward stories. When Trump was president, he would come on and just he did an hour wood Woodward stuff with me once. I mean, so, I mean, I have this on this, but you had dinner with him. I don’t think I I had a couple press room, you know, biscuits with him, but I never went out Final Four weekend with John. I didn’t know him like that. Yeah,
Mike Vaccaro 20:33
like I said, that’s one of the, you know, great fortunes of my career is, is, is being able to to develop a relationship with him like that. You know, he got inducted into the sports writers Hall of Fame they have every year in Winston Salem, and I was there one year, inducting my friend Joe Posnanski, or introducing my friend Joe posnansky, who was sports writer of the year and in the lobby of the hotel, when he checked in, it was like, when, what happens when the Yankees go on the road? Or, you know, when would you imagine, you know, before security, huge security, became a part of the thing, what it was like when you know any other sports team, or any other rock band, frankly, on the road, and that, you know that weekend is set up to to to kind of make sports writers feel awfully important. But you know John, you know after, you know, basically, you know, checking in and then getting to the elevator after, like, signing 50 autographs and shaking 50 hands, said, I love this place. It’s the only place where they treat sports writers like the Beatles and 64 like the Beatles in 64 and that was John, you know, I mean, he, he, he understood the importance of John when he understood how important it also was to be accessible to his colleagues and to his friends. And, you know, he wrote a number of blurbs for books during Book proposals. And obviously that’s, you know, any sports author who’s trying to sell a book, you know, tried to get John to give the papal blessing. And you know, that certainly didn’t hurt. But yeah, I mean, the student, I know the story I told my column. I mean, it’s worth repeating. I mean, two fold. One he was telling, he told a story that that that that night about earlier in the Final Four, him and Gary Williams, and they were very close. They John had covered Gary and American and remained close with them for years. And by now, Gary was at Maryland, and night was still at Texas Tech, I believe. And yeah, they were walking into a hotel night. Was walking out night, and Feinstein hadn’t talked in 26 years, since season nine, and break into that relationship pretty famously and furiously. And suddenly, here comes night. He walks over, he shakes Gary’s hand. Says Hi, Gary shakes John in as I John, and they both say, hi back. And then John, and then the night walks away. They take a few steps, and Gary says, How can you talk that son of a bitch, after all the all the stuff he’s put you through the last 25 years? And John turned into Gary and said, Gary, the man built my house, which, I mean, you know, pretty much sums up John’s attitude toward everybody. You know, nobody was was over important to him, but, but he but he was right. That book, that book you know, not only you know, in the moment, made him a fortune, but allowed him to have this career that even you know all those years later he was grateful to have. But later on, he and I were having dinner at a Morton’s with Steve Politi from the star Ledger in Newark. And about half an hour in a bottle of wine appears, and it’s pretty expensive bottle of wine. I mean, I can’t tell that, but John certainly knew. And he looks up and across the room waving, was Roy Williams. And as we all know, John was a this was, was was was probably one of the most famous Duke alums living and Williams came over, and they shook hands and laughed, and he said, Do I have to drink this? This is Chapel Hill wine. And we didn’t know that the Hall of Fame was having dinner in an adjoining room. And so pretty much every living member of the Hall of Fame was in that room, and pretty much everyone in that room wound up wandering by our table to say hello to John. And as political said, it was like the it was like having dinner with the MC of the event. And they kept arriving like an order of importance. You know, Reggie Miller and David Robinson and Dean Smith, and, you know, on and on. And Chef was there, of course, he finally came over and and it was just, it was, it was, it was surreal, you know. And every one of them wanted to, want to buy John a bottle of wine. I mean, if he had, you know, we never would have made it to to the to the championship game the next day. But that’s, but that’s just living in John’s world. It was a fascinating world. It was a fascinating world of. Is it when he allowed you in? And I, you know, like I said, I’m grateful that, that I was, that I was one of the many that he allowed in to share what that world was like, because he was, it was spectacular. Yeah. I mean, every
Nestor Aparicio 25:12
radio host that America would like to have him on the show, or throw him a note, and maybe he’d be kind and come on once in a while, I’m like that with guys like you, where I don’t hit you every you know, once a year, hear it again, and it’s what I do. I always say yes when people ask me, because, like so I’ve been doing for 34 years, is asking other people, but John was always and when I hit him, he didn’t hit me back last week, but I know he would have. And I there is a there’s a palpable loss for me, and just along the wisdom I missed along the way, and for people like you. So it is a pleasure to have you join us. Mike Vaquero is here the New York Post. Well, you know, we’ve done a lot of John, but John would be upset if we didn’t talk a little March Madness. I didn’t know you st Bonaventure, like I looked up the saint Bonaventure part of trying to research you a little bit to say, Now, I know there was a West Point thing, and I know there was another newspaper and all that. And I think of college I think of you with college basketball, and I think of you with the Yankees certainly. And I think of you as New York sports in a general sense. I think we talked about all of that, including the Knicks and hockey, even a little bit. But the the Bonnie thing, like, I always think that to be the strangest thing in the 80s, to go to school there because of the Big East thing. And it always felt like they must be a big school. And then I look it up, and it’s just this little place in the middle of like you can’t even define where it is. Nobody could ever find Saint Bonaventure,
Mike Vaccaro 26:30
yeah, well, it’s in Saint Bonaventure, New York, which means it’s in the middle of nowhere. It’s it, it’s book ended by Olean and Allegheny, and which kind of furthers that that definition, yeah, you know, I found myself there. It’s got, it’s got a very, very strong Mass Communication Department has for years. That’s what drew me there, literally, because I was, they gave me a small scholarship going out of high school because I had been, you know, part of my student newspaper in high school, and that’s how I got there. And everybody who gets there kind of has a funny story about how you got there. We always joked about how it was, everybody’s sick, everybody’s safety school. I couldn’t get into Syracuse, even to go over Syracuse you went to, you dialed up Bonaventure, which is unfair, but but funny, and it’s, you know. And during the time I was there, you know, it was, it was a, it was really a heady time. I mean, newspapers were huge, and they really did seem to be opportunities everywhere, if you’re willing to work for them. And, you know, I was fortunate to have a kid show up two years after I they majored. Was key, and the two of us were of a like mind. I mean, you know, we were the guys who would call the Roanoke paper to see if they wanted the story, because Virginia Tech was playing in town, not necessarily the bodies, if they were playing, you know, the Canisius that they but buffalo, what, you know, cost us more in in gas mileage to get to Buffalo, then when we would get to string those games. But, you know, we wanted the clips. And we were of a like mind. I was, I was in the room for the first woge Bomb, because the basketball coachman fired. He and I got the got the news. We had it alone, but it was Wednesday, and the paper didn’t come out till Friday, so some news is going to break, you know, just by release the next day. And so it was wOJ idea to call the buffalo TV stations, the the ABC, NBC and CBS affiliates, and offer them the story in return for credit. I mean, never would occur to me to do that. I mean, you occurred to wojci do that, of course. And we did, what’s
Nestor Aparicio 28:36
the name of the paper at the state fundamental,
Mike Vaccaro 28:40
very, very imaginative name the Bonaventure. The
Nestor Aparicio 28:44
Bonaventure. So sources at the Bonaventure say that head coach who was the coach 1988 89 we’re in
Mike Vaccaro 28:51
there. Yeah, Rhonda Carly was the coach that was fired, okay? And yeah, I
Nestor Aparicio 28:55
mean, I can name all the other coaches. Mass amino, I go through the whole conference. You know, it’s John Thompson. But St Bonaventure, I was an agate clerk in 8485 8687 so it always popped up. And then Georgetown and Villanova became a thing, obviously, 8485 in that range. But St Bonaventure was, like, they’re in it. They must be like, big, like, Providence or something. You know, I don’t know when, because when you’re a kid, I mean, they’re
Mike Vaccaro 29:19
actually in the Atlantic tension, that’s part of it. They’d have, they, they didn’t make the cut for the last big East School. They chose to ignore buffalo as a market for some reason, and that cost. But
Nestor Aparicio 29:29
they were always played George Washington temple, right? All of
Mike Vaccaro 29:33
those, they were the Atlantic 10, which, you know, look at those days. You know, they were three and four big league because they had temple, and they wrote it, he was very good. And they had st Joe was very good. West Virginia was in the league Very good. Rutgers had some pretty good teams. So it was a pretty rugged League. It wasn’t, but it was still, you know, right there with them, and small
Nestor Aparicio 29:53
little school that was playing big, right? Like Duke did that too, right? It’s
Mike Vaccaro 29:57
2000 students. It’s still the smallest school. They were making the Final Four, which they did in 1970 long before my time with Bob O’Neill, 2000
Nestor Aparicio 30:04
students. My high school had 16, 1700 Yeah, mine
Mike Vaccaro 30:08
had 1700 Yes. So it made for kind of a unique college experience. I guess I enjoyed it. It was a, you know, and you really do get it, you know. I don’t know how many other bodily people in your life, but they tend to be fiercely loyal to the brand and fiercely loyal to the brown, as we say. And yeah, so I mean, but just as a but because it was so small, you know? I mean, if you would have gone to Syracuse, you might have to wait till you were junior to get a job on the student paper, or you would have maybe never gotten a chance to get on the on the campus radio station. And you know, for me, I was able to do them. First week I was there, you know, you were able to do everything that you were ambitious enough to try to do. And a guy like me, I needed that, you know, I mean, I, I guess I had a little bit of an ability just born with it. But it’s got to get developed somehow. And it’s like, I tell young writers all the time, being a writer is like, you know, trying to try to build your your body in the gym, you know, how do you, how do you build up your biceps? How do you build up your triceps? Reps, a million reps, and you do it, and you get stronger. And same thing with writing, you know, and that’s what, that’s what I was doing, trying to hustle after all these, you know, stringing stories, assignments, just to try and get better, to try and to try and figure out, you know how to, you know how to tell a story and how to tell it right, how to tell it properly, how to, how to, kind of, how to, how to be a good reporter. And that’s, you know, St bonavich, small enough to where I had every opportunity to do that. And that’s why I was, I was, you know, I’m forever grateful for what it wasn’t, you know, the fact that me and wolves both went up there at the same time. Is, is a hilarious bit of coincidence, but also serendipity. And, you know, we helped each other out at very early NASA parts of our career. You know, now, now wOJ is back there as the General Manager of the basketball team, which is one of the, to me, one of the great sports stories of the Yeah,
Nestor Aparicio 31:57
I would want to ask you about that, because I knew you knew him, and I knew that there was a pathway. I didn’t know it goes back to, like me and Kevin Eck, the childhood, or whatever, or at least what childhood was his pathway to saying. And I know Adam Schefter really well, okay, and I don’t know wOJ well, although, I mean, although back in the USA Today era, but I don’t know him at all. Like, literally, but like, there are people in the industry, Ken Rosenthal being one, Adam Schefter, some of the news reporters I know extremely, extremely well. And that beat of being on the clock all day, every day, for breaking news and the agents and how the agents control the information for that. And then there’s also the point where, like you brought up, like me, that it meant something to get credit. It meant something to break a story. There was an ethical code across all lines that you credited, you know, the source for the story. Kind of all that’s going away in the last 15 years. I used to take all that really seriously, until I turned about 45 and then I’m just sort of like everything sort of ubiquitous at this point, the LA Times breaks the story. Five minutes later, it’s in Chicago near nobody knows who broke it, and nobody credits anymore. And then just the breakdown of journalism in the general sense. You’re at the New York Post. We’re here in Baltimore, where the sun’s in this direction, and the banners there, it’s never going to go back in the box. But for the people that did it, that walk away like your guy did, to go to back to St Bonaventure, there’s a point for me where I’m like, I I don’t know that I’d have the patience to do that again, or think about it the same way now that I’ve lived, hopefully three quarters, maybe only half, of a whole life. But it was pretty intense breaking news, so intense that it’s more fun to be running Saint Bonaventure for people that have even succeeded at the level that you and I would have aspired to,
Mike Vaccaro 33:47
right? You know? I mean, look, look, I mean, he’s one of my best friends, and God, God’s godfather to his son. And so I, you know, I bore witness to a lot of what the ESPN job was, you know, and obviously he was well compensated for it. Um, obviously he became, he became famous for it. You know, the wOJ Bond became a thing as famous thing that his Twitter, Twitter ever invented. And he was, he was he it wasn’t that he was unhappy. He just, you know, he did. He just wondered if this wasn’t hijacking the rest of his life, you know. And even before the same bottom entry opportunity came about, he started talking to me anyway, you know, certainly very privately about, you know, when about there being an exit strategy for that? He was just ready to, just to just walk away. And then the bottom interesting happened to open up at the same exact time, and I can assure you that he works every bit as hard at his new job at one 100 the cost as he did as his old one. It’s just that while his old one was a job, and it was a job, he liked very much, and he was very invested in this. This is, this is where. Him for a school that, you know, he met his wife there. He met, you know, a lot of great friends and people there gave him, gave him a real a real start, a real foundation in the business. He feels very strongly and passionately about st bottom, rich University. People want to be cynical about the about why he would have done this. And I can assure you, there is this, until cynicism about it. I mean, this is a guy who loves st Bonaventure, an opportunity for a job that he couldn’t even imagine in his dreams. You know, when we were going to school there opened up, and he happens to be the most qualified guy in the world to do it, because he knows all the people involved, all the agents that he’s dealt with for all these years are now peddling college players, all the coaches that he dealt with, the college coaches he dealt with, and knows very, very well, you know, are now people that he’s competing against for players and for n i l dollars, and look, I mean, he’s still, for the time being. Anyway, he’s still a very famous brand, and that’s really helped a school that would have been otherwise challenged to find marketing opportunities, to raise the kind of nio you need to be competitive in a league like the a 10. And that’s what, that’s what he’s done already. I mean, you know, it’s pretty and they got to deal with the WWE. They give out a belt every year, every every win, and it’s spread like wildfire. He’s been able to, you know, to enter into, you know, corporate sponsorships and agreements that we wouldn’t have had a prayer of getting as a school, frankly, if we didn’t have woge on our side. And, you know, Mark Schmidt was the basketball coach, and he said it, you know, if he was in the transfer portal, you know, Duke and Carolina and Kansas would be bidding against themselves to try and and bring them in. But he happens to love this particular place in this particular unknown part of Earth. And you know, it’s, it’s been a blessing for him, but it’s a blessing for the school also. And you know, so far so good, he hasn’t gotten one player yet. We won 22 games this year. So, I mean, and we’re in the NIT so, you know, maybe, maybe the man, maybe the wOJ Magic Touch has a little bit behind it.
Nestor Aparicio 37:15
Maybe not quite what Dion did in Boulder. But close. You know, Mike Vaquero is here from the New York Post. I didn’t got the Yankees with you or any of that kind of stuff. I mean, we’ve got a transition here with ownership. And, I mean, you mentioned n, i L and I had Pat scary from Towson on for everybody. You know, Towson made a hell of a run in the CAA and then lost in the semifinal last week in Washington. So they’re not a part of it. But mid major and Pat scary talk mid major and money and how much College of Charleston has versus how much Towson would have. I’m befuddled by all of that, but I’m trying to figure out baseball, my friend, because we have a new owner here whose money bags $2 billion buys out the mass and things for whatever that is, with the learner family in Washington, and now going to get $600 million of our collective money to fix up Camden Yards and this and that, um, I’m trying to figure out baseball and revenue models and streaming and where this thing’s going. And look, you and I have been at this since we were pups, reading seat, you know, of the Lords of the Realm and dealing with baseball strikes in 1994 right? All these years later, the revenues going up, up, up, up, up. Player Association still has a grip, but not the kind of Marvin Miller grip that they once had. I worry about baseball not having big money, not having a wide touch in places like Baltimore, where they play in the city, and no one wants to come to the city. And all i i am really interested in how they’re going to resurrect this thing here and really compete with the Yankees and the Red Sox and the big boys and the Dodgers and whoever it is that it doesn’t become like n i L with have and have nots been have have nots from the beginning, but I’m trying to figure out the new world of baseball and their revenue model to keep people like gunner Henderson here instead of Going there,
Mike Vaccaro 39:01
right? And look, I mean, I’m not just saying this because I’m on the Baltimore positive station, but, you know, I grew up at a time when the Orioles were the model for all of baseball. You know, the Mets had success against them in 1969 obviously, Yankees had a little success in the 70s. But you know, for the entirety of my life, until I was a junior in high school, the Orioles were the model franchise. The Oriole way was a real thing. And, you know, Earl Weaver and all those great players. And I think what would really I still remember this I was 15 years old, was it the last day of the of the 82 season when they it scared the crap out of the brewers and won the first three games before game series to end the season, and they actually lost game 162 until the Brewers won the one that won the Division and the door the ovation that followed the game in Memorial Stadium was both exhilarating and puzzling to me, because. You know, I was growing up on Long Island in New York, so I knew that if the Metro the Yankees had had lost game 162 and Yankee Stadium, or Shea Stadium, there would have been a there would have been cheering, there would have been near riotous conditions, all the venom aimed at the home team. And yet, here was this, this, this, this magical place where the home team had lost, and yet the fans were smart enough and invested enough to thank them for the effort. And, you know, give them a standing ovation. And you know, I know that was, believe that was Earl Weaver’s last game, his first tenure with the team. And of course, I mean, I guess they were awarded for that loyalty the very next year. But so to me, baseball, specifically the American League, and even more specifically, the American League East in which the Yankees reside, is so much more interesting when the Orioles are interesting, when the Orioles are good. The last two years have been terrific to watch because, you know, two years ago, especially because it was kind of Logistics is amazing, innocent climb. And they just, they just pounded the Yankees every time they saw him. And, you know, look, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s not easy for Yankees fans to see that. I don’t think many of them are as, maybe as detached, and can appreciate that as much as I can, but I thought that was wonderful last year. I know that things went a little bit sideways, is sometimes for the O’s. But you know, teaching to me, it’s, it’s just, it’s just Yankees Orioles, to me, is what I think about when I think of an American League baseball game, even more than Yankees Red Sox. You’ll think I’m nuts, because that’s obviously the ancient rivalry. I wrote a book about the Yankees and the Red Sox rivalry, and it’s wonderful on its own, in its own context. But to me, you know, the Yankees and the Orioles is what I grew up with in the American League. And it’s, it’s just a better product when you have and look, I mean, then you can talk about the franchises that are like the Orioles, you know, the mid mark, the mid majors, if you will. And so I always, I’m always happy when, when, when the guardians are playing well, or when the Royals are playing well, you know, it’s, it’s just a better product. And I get it, which we’re going with this Nestor, because it’s, it is worrisome because, you know, it’s, it’s great that one Soto got, what he got. Because the free market exists in baseball for a reason, and that’s what they fought for for 60 years, trying to get players paid what they’re worth. But you also noticed there was a restricted list of people who could seriously bid for him, and they were all teams that were in either major markets or had you know, unlimited pockets, and wind up going to the guy with the with the deepest pockets in the biggest city.
Nestor Aparicio 42:47
And that’s great. We’re trying to figure out, do we have a sugar daddy, like they had in San Diego, like they had in Detroit, or is he going to, as he said, out of Beth to Philo the night that I heard him speak, well, baseball, we tend to spend what we make. Well, if you’re going to spend what you’re going to make in Baltimore, I hope you’re making better. Making better ideas, yeah, like literally, because I don’t know where this dream revenue is gonna come from in a city without fortune 500 in a city that now has a football team siphoning money out of it, just on in a general sense that didn’t exist in 9293 94 when this and the Washington franchise. So there’s a lot of things here that work against the 1995 Cal Ripken version of what the Orioles were, and all of your sugar plum dreams of Jim Palmer and Earl Weaver in 1983 it was 42 years ago. You know what I mean? Like, I’m trying to say, How can this be mature, and how can it be awesome, great again, and 3 million people. I don’t know that it’s going to be that. What’s
Mike Vaccaro 43:45
funny is that the the I can’t believe I’m actually saying this, but the Yankees are actually closer to the Orioles universe than the Mets are in this sense. Look, the Mets are owned by a guy who’s worth $21 billion which is unfathomable mummy. But just think about the fact that if he just chose to devote 1 billion of those $21 billion of resources to the Mets over the next 10 years, he’s still going to be able to pay more than anybody else in the universe pays their players. The Yankees don’t have that luxury. Yankees are plenty rich. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not crying poverty on their behalf. They won’t cry poverty on their own behalf. They make plenty of income, and, you know, probably more than anybody else, but they but they do. They’re owned by a guy who has to answer to his partners. And look, He always hears about how his father didn’t care about money and didn’t care about price and Guy yada yada yada. But as you said, it’s a different model. Now you know when, when, when George first put together the best team money can buy in 1977 the entirety of running the baseball operation was a little over $2 million and even if you factor in inflation in 2025 that’s like $17 million which is what, what you’re going to pay Aaron judge until Memorial? It. You know, it’s different now, when you’re talking about devoting three quarters of a billion dollars and plus to one player over the course of 15 years, you know, there are partners. You know, back in the day, George would laugh about how his partner never got dividends and never saw, you know, always asked for cash calls and so forth. And he he would joke about, how is the cost effectiveness? Because the cost of getting a good season ticket for the Yankees, and how can have those that life part of exchange with his partners? Because this is serious money. And, you know, the steinbeckers own the team, but they own 60% of the team. So in order for it to, you know, in order to make these deals happen, they do they are beholden to other people outside the family, which, you know, is nobody in New York wants to hear that, you know, they just want the Yankees to spend, spend, spend. And I think that on a, you know, it’s a relative term. I think that’s what all baseball fans want, of their respective owners, is an understanding that they’re not in it. They shouldn’t be in it just as a money making process. You know, they, in theory, make plenty of money in their other ventures in life. Baseball should be a civic duty. And if that means, you know, taking a loss every now and again for that to happen, then that’s the way it’s got to be. But, but unfortunately, it’s easy for guys like you and me to say, because we’re not the ones who are rolling out the money, but that’s ideally what you want, you know. And you know, we have the same situation in New York with the Giants. Look. I mean, half of the giants is owned by John Mara, and the Mara family’s entire business is the Giants. They don’t have a Steel Corporation that allowed them to buy the Giants. They bought the Giants because they were willing to put up 500 bucks for it. 1925, it in 1925 it’s one of the great stories of sports, but it’s also one of the harsh realities of today’s sports. Is that, you know, the fiscal part of the game is so much different than it was even 1015, 20 and certainly 50 years ago. Well,
Nestor Aparicio 46:59
that’s what forced art modell out, and Steve Bucha in, and we go from old owners to new owners. I’m just trying to figure out what kind of owner this owner is going to be in a sport without a salary cap, and in a sport where the Dodgers and the Mets and other teams are going to spend and in a sport where, when your best players, Gunner Henderson, Jordan Westbrook, are represented by Boris, who’s going to take them to market? What are they going to find when they get to market? Mike Vaccaro writes about sports better than anybody. This thing started on Feinstein and ended on Yankees, just the way I dreamed it up. And you’re working on any books or anything. Man, what’s going on in your life
Mike Vaccaro 47:35
right now? Just press the button on a on a book. Interestingly enough, about this the Stein rider years with the Yankees. So 1973 on, literally just pushed the button on. It hopefully will be out by late summer. It’s called the bosses of the Bronx. And you know, it’s not, it’s not a biography, as much as it is a kind of a narrative of what it’s been like since January 3, 73 when George bought the team, and subsequently, with when, when Hal took over for him 15 years ago. And, yeah, I mean, I enjoy the heck out of writing. And so, and like you, as I, as I wrote a lot of it. I was thinking about boy Feinstein, and you know, how we might address this particular story, this particular story, and, and so, yeah, so it’s, I’m looking forward to seeing, seeing people read that because it’s it was a fun one.
Nestor Aparicio 48:23
I can see in your smile that you’re channeling Feinstein right now and up to no good. Mike Vaquero is here we have honored the great John Feinstein. I would remind anyone, if you want to find unlimited John, there’s about 22 hours of it up on YouTube. You can click on our YouTube channel. We did present that last week, and we’ll continue to talk about him. I have his book one on one in front of me. This, these thick tune books that he have to be like when I wrote purple ring two down at the beach, people came on and say that book, that’s a really thick book. Ain’t got no pictures. Ain’t got I read new books in a long time, and then we got this form of government. So good luck to to you on your your George seimer thing, I would say this, I read a Bronx Zoo, the Bronx Zoo, you know, back in the late 70s. This feels like a nice little catch up on that. Right? Kind
Mike Vaccaro 49:09
of is, I mean, I like to think that some of the spirit of that book, and the Greg nettles book, balls and a few other book, you know, I do get into a lot of the stories, you know, my editor said, though, you know, don’t overthink it. Play, play the hits. And so you’re gonna get a lot of the George Steinberger hits and and so a little bit more. I think it’s, I think, I think it’s a pretty fun read.
Nestor Aparicio 49:30
Well, Reggie and Dave Winfield, some of the folks are still here to maybe even provide you with some stories as well. Mike Vaquero does it better than anybody at the New York Post. You can find them out on the web. You can find them out on social media, telling stories of New York sports, Saint Bonaventure in the Yankees. I feel like I got all the boxes checked on this one. It’s March Madness week. It’s opening day week. Luke and I will be in Toronto, Canada next week for opening day, where the Orioles will be getting booed off the field, and I will be drinking expensive, cheap Canadian beer. But I like. That sort of thing. Anyway, I am Nestor. We are W, N, S, T. Am 1570 Towson, Baltimore. We never stop storytelling and talking. Baltimore positive. Stay with us. You.
