Someone is not making the playoffs in AFC North race to the middle – and then what happens?

It’s always a great conversation with Will Graves of The Associated Press in Pittsburgh joins us to give a full picture of the Steelers. This time, it’s two teams struggling to win games despite sharing first place in the AFC North. Is there more angst in Da Burgh than in Baltimore? It depends on who you ask…

Nestor Aparicio and Will Graves discuss the current struggles of the Pittsburgh Steelers and Baltimore Ravens, both with 6-6 records. Graves highlights the Steelers’ defensive issues, particularly against the run, and the fan frustration with Mike Tomlin. He notes the Steelers’ longest playoff victory drought since the Immaculate Reception. Aparicio compares the Ravens’ recent defensive improvements and the importance of Lamar Jackson’s health. Both agree that the upcoming matchup between the two teams is crucial for both franchises’ playoff hopes. They also touch on the broader implications for the coaches’ futures and the need for significant roster changes.

Pittsburgh vs. Baltimore Week and Initial Thoughts

• Nestor Aparicio introduces the show, mentioning the 2-6-6 record of both the Steelers and Ravens and the general malaise in the division.
• Nestor discusses the Maryland crab cake tour and various giveaways, including Maryland lottery scratch-offs and candy cane tickets.
• Nestor introduces Will Graves, an Associated Press lead writer based in Pittsburgh, as a guest for the show.
• Nestor and Will Graves discuss the strange season both teams are having, with both coaches and quarterbacks under pressure.

Steelers’ Recent Struggles and Fan Reactions

• Will Graves shares his experience of covering the Steelers for 15 seasons and the unusual fan reaction to booing Renegade during a game.
• Will explains the immediate aftermath of booing Renegade, where the Bills held the ball for 30 minutes, effectively ending the game.
• Will mentions that Mike Tomlin is unlikely to be fired but acknowledges the growing angst among fans.
• Nestor compares the Steelers’ situation to the Ravens, noting the empty stadiums and the changing fan base demographics.

Historical Context and Coaching Stability

• Nestor and Will discuss the historical context of both teams, mentioning the long tenures of coaches like Mike Tomlin and John Harbaugh.
• Will notes that the Steelers’ recent struggles are not as severe as the Ravens’ but that the fan base’s patience is running out.
• Will compares the Steelers’ situation to the Pittsburgh Penguins, where a long-tenured coach parted ways with the team after a decline.
• Nestor and Will discuss the secondary market for tickets and the influx of opposing fans into Steelers games.

Steelers’ Defense and Upcoming Games

• Will Graves highlights the Steelers’ defensive struggles, particularly against the Bills’ running game, and the need for significant changes in the offseason.
• Will suggests that the Ravens should run the ball against the Steelers and exploit their defensive weaknesses.
• Nestor and Will discuss the Steelers’ upcoming games against Detroit, Cleveland, and Miami, noting the challenges each presents.
• Will expresses concern that the Steelers’ recent poor performance might lead to a significant overhaul of the team.

Ravens’ Season and Playoff Hopes

• Nestor and Will discuss the Ravens’ season, noting their recent improvement and the importance of winning their remaining games to secure a playoff spot.
• Will mentions the Ravens’ recent defensive improvements and the impact of injuries on the team’s performance.
• Nestor highlights the Ravens’ playoff expectations and the need for a strong finish to secure a home game in the playoffs.
• Will and Nestor discuss the importance of the upcoming game against the Steelers and the potential implications for both teams.

Leadership and Accountability in Football

• Nestor shares insights from Marvin Lewis about the importance of leadership and accountability in football.
• Will and Nestor discuss the lack of accountability among some Ravens players, such as Mark Andrews, and the need for better leadership.
• Will compares the current state of the Steelers and Ravens to past seasons, noting the challenges both teams face.
• Nestor emphasizes the importance of leadership in maintaining team cohesion and performance.

Steelers’ Quarterback Situation and Future Outlook

• Will Graves discusses the Steelers’ quarterback situation, mentioning the struggles of Kenny Pickett and the impact of injuries on the team.
• Will notes the Steelers’ reliance on older players like Cam Heyward and T.J. Watt and the need for a new quarterback.
• Nestor and Will discuss the potential for a significant overhaul of the Steelers’ roster, including the possibility of trading Mike Tomlin.
• Will highlights the importance of finding a long-term solution at the quarterback position to stabilize the team.

Ravens’ Playoff Chances and Conference Competition

• Nestor and Will discuss the Ravens’ playoff chances, noting the importance of winning their remaining games against the Steelers and other opponents.
• Will mentions the Ravens’ recent success against the Steelers and the potential for a repeat performance.
• Nestor highlights the challenges of the Ravens’ remaining schedule, including games against the Bengals, Patriots, and other playoff contenders.
• Will and Nestor discuss the potential for a playoff matchup between the Ravens and Steelers and the implications for both teams.

Steelers’ Offensive Struggles and Play Calling

• Will Graves discusses the Steelers’ offensive struggles, particularly the lack of production from the running game and the curious play-calling.
• Will mentions the Steelers’ reliance on Pat Freiermuth and the lack of playing time for top tight end Eric Ebron.
• Nestor and Will discuss the impact of injuries on the Steelers’ offense and the need for better play-calling to exploit opposing defenses.
• Will highlights the importance of finding a consistent offensive strategy to support the Steelers’ defense.

Ravens’ Defense and Injury Impact

• Nestor and Will discuss the Ravens’ defense, noting the improvements made since the start of the season and the impact of injuries on the unit.
• Will mentions the Ravens’ recent defensive meetings and the need for better communication and execution on the field.
• Nestor highlights the importance of the Ravens’ defensive performance in upcoming games against the Steelers and other opponents.
• Will and Nestor discuss the potential for the Ravens’ defense to step up and carry the team to a playoff berth.

Final Thoughts and Predictions

• Nestor and Will discuss their final thoughts on the upcoming game between the Ravens and Steelers, predicting a close and competitive matchup.
• Will highlights the importance of the game for both teams, noting the potential implications for the division and playoff standings.
• Nestor emphasizes the need for both teams to perform well to secure their playoff hopes and maintain their respective legacies.
• Will and Nestor conclude the discussion by expressing their excitement for the upcoming game and the potential for a thrilling matchup.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

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Steelers woes, Tomlin angst, Ravens loom, fan frustration, quarterback issues, defensive struggles, playoff hopes, coaching stability, fan attendance, team performance, injury impact, leadership accountability, offensive line, playoff expectations, divisional rivalry.

SPEAKERS

Will Graves, Nestor Aparicio

Nestor Aparicio  00:01

Welcome home. We are W, N, S, T am 1570 Towson, Baltimore. We’re Baltimore positive. We’re positively into Pittsburgh week around here. I’m not going to muck around or sugar coat two six and six teams, but somebody’s going to hell in a handbasket. It doesn’t make the playoffs in this division. I’ve kind of figured that out from the empty stadiums and the coaches and all that. In the meantime, you know, I’m putting the Santa hat on and we’re going out on the Maryland crab cake tour. I’m giving away these Maryland lottery scratch ups. I’m going to get those candy cane dissented tickets. I’ll be giving those away five dates out in the next coming weeks, and I may be adding more, because stuff’s happening. It’s, it’s if the football is not going to be a Festivus for the rest of us, I’m still going to celebrate the holidays and celebrate another Pittsburgh Baltimore, because I get to get some of my favorite guests on this guy’s one of my favorite dudes to have on the program. We’re sort of Elton John and Bernie top, and we only get together in two separate rooms once in a while. But will Graves is a Marylander who has settled in Pittsburgh and made a great life there as the Associated Press lead writer, writing about pit and Steelers and the penguins and and then on, everybody but the Pisces. Although that would be a good AI piece, if you could do that. Well, always good to see you. Always in good cheer. And it’s a Pittsburgh Baltimore week, and it’s Thanksgiving, and both teams look like garbage over the weekend. What? This is a weird one, right? I mean, I think for both of the franchises and where the coaches are and where the quarterback is or isn’t in both of these places, wow. I mean, a lot going on here, man,

Will Graves  01:34

it is. It’s weird, you know? I mean, I look, I’ve been this my 15th season. I started covering this team in 2011 and you know, there’s been disgruntled. Nestor has been angst for a while, but like having them boo Renegade, as they did on Sunday, which, you know, is a you’ve been here. I mean, that is, that is like, it’s always the antithesis of that. It’s always like people just that is, that is their thing, that is their vibe, that is their let’s get amped. Let’s do and there just was. It was jarring, I think. And what happened immediately after that that the bills held the ball for about 30 minutes and basically ended the game, right? So the usually Renegade is played to amp the defense up at a pivotal moment. But they had just blown a fourth and two from like the buffalo five, and they ran it. They did an inside handoff to Kenny gain. Well, like, what? And so that it then effectively ended the game. And, but it’s, you know, Mike t is, look, there’s no like. Mike Tomlin is not going to get fired. Okay. Can we get like, like that? The fans chanting Mike Tomlin is, like, you know, me chanting that Joe Gibbs would come back and coach, you know, the commanders, right? Like that’s not going to happen. But the reality is, I mean, they have been the trend line over the years has kind of that. And I think that the angst is getting to the point where management might have to take notice in some capacity.

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Nestor Aparicio  02:56

I feel that way about the Ravens. They’ve had the stadium completely empty out for 40 minutes before the game was over, in front of bishati three times in the last five home games. And like, you know, I’m an old PSL guy back before I was thrown out by Chad steel, and I had tickets, and I did all it was never, ever, ever, ever like that, and just the fan bases and whatever the angst is, and whatever the generation that came before us, whether it was your daddy watching Billy Kilmer or me and my dad with Bert Jones or the Pittsburgh ends in that with with with Bradshaw and you know, and Franco and all of them, it’s just sort of a different level of gambling bar stool mentality, young guy, you know, like coming to the game, the expense part of coming to the game, who’s going to the games now, why they’re there, whether the hometown means as much as my bet or my tribe, or whatever the thing would be, that is the glue that used to hold this together for selling tickets, season ticket books, sponsorships, all of that. It’s a weird time for these two venerable franchises that are finding the next group of fan base that is not we love the Steelers and not no matter what, because Myron cope told us to, you know, like the same thing here, where we lost our freaking team, and there was a real Pollyanna, especially amongst me, like civic money build, you know, all of that where now it’s like they got to go sell tickets and figure it out they have the best player on Earth, and they’re still running ads. Your tickets are available in the middle of the game. I mean, it’s right. We’re at a different time, all the way around for them, and that’s why the measurement of these two coaches who all you’ve known, it feels like you’ve been covering a team like, I think, if you like, of covering the 86 dealers, I really do you know, like you’ve been there 15 years. It feels like a long time, but tomlin’s all you know. And my dude, Luke, came into my life in 2008 and 2009 and it’s been. To me for 17 years he only knows har ball dude. That’s really, really crazy when you consider both of you and your jobs and all you’ve done, you’ve only known one coach, and you just said to me, they ain’t firing him. And I said the same thing about har ball one and five. I mean, nobody’s getting fired. I mean, Steve owes you $80 million I don’t think he’s firing you. This isn’t college

Will Graves  05:22

right now, I mean, but I think there is a scenario. And look, this happened a couple years ago, and it was all posturing, you know, people like Mike’s reps leaking to Glazer and whatever, oh, that he might be interested in moving like, which was just crap. He was just that was just posturing for his next contract, which he ended up getting. And he got a longer deal, like a three year deal, as we all thought he was going to be, like, two years with an option. It was three years with an option. You know, this time though, I can see, look, his boys are grown. His daughter is a sophomore at Georgia. You know, sometimes look, these things run their course, like the penguins got, you know, part of Mike Sullivan got there, won two cups right away, and then stayed for another eight years. Obviously, the penguins have, you know that it is falling off a little bit, but like in the spring, they parted ways, and you get a job with the Rangers, like three days later, I could see there’s a 3% chance of that happening, I think when you mentioned the fan base. And one thing I will notice, you know, look, the secondary market access to that is different than when, when you and I were young, right? The only way you could get is literally, you go up stand outside the stadium and talk to a dude on a corner and negotiate right now with the with the Seat Geek and all those other folks like you can get tickets to whoever, whenever. And I would say that there was a fair amount of red and blue from Buffalo in there on Sunday, a significant portion, probably 20 ish percent of the crowd. The Packers game was much the same way. Look, those are two like, the New York buffalo is five hours from here. The Packers are a national brand,

Nestor Aparicio  06:51

but Steelers have turned every stadium in the league

06:53

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at some point this century. Everything

Nestor Aparicio  06:55

absolutely but I think it’s interesting that

Will Graves  06:57

the Steelers are like, there’s a little bit of like, pro clutching, like, pro clutching, like, how is this happening to us? Like we’re but I do think that there

Nestor Aparicio  07:04

is, I think bashati would be alarmed as well. You know, the Steve bati that bought this team three out of the last four home games, Exodus, like a, like a, like a Bob Marley song, like, I’m talking like preseason ugly fan stayed the yell at har ball. And I’m thinking to myself, Man, that’s not the way me and my dad rolled, or why we had tickets, or the kind of fans we were going back next week, or whatever. But like, times is changing, you know, all the way around, and it’s terrible optics in both places. And you know, my feelings Look, I know Tomlin real well. I know har ball too well. I’m on the record and how I feel about John Harbaugh and His scripture every time they you know, like just and I also know Mike Tomlin. I’ve been in vehicles with these men, in homes, with these men, at the dinner with like, I they’re all I’ve known it. But I know Billick too. And I knew March abroad, you know. And I go back to Uber and your tribe, you know, on the on the Pittsburgh side of things, for me, there’s going to be an end. And you had something else you want to say, because I have a really fun thing. I’m run by you.

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Will Graves  08:13

Well, well, I would just say, you know, yesterday, I sort of in my Monday, or, I’m sorry, my Monday analysis, after the after the loss of the bills, I kind of pointed out, this is the first time it feels like their patience is starting to really run out. And I’ve had people respond, look, our patience has been gone for a while. But like, the Steelers aren’t Rooney. If he’s in the stadium, the stadium is full. Your lack of patience as a fan base is not going to resonate with him. The only way to really I mean, look, I cover the pirates, right? I mean, the pirates had the best baseball player outside of Shohei Ohtani on the planet. And nobody goes to their games because they understand that management is not committed to putting on a winning product. If sealer fans are really upset with how it’s going, the only way to really get our Rooney’s attention will be to not show up. And that’s not going to happen, right? So it’s but it, but it does feel, look, there’s going to have to be significant changes to the staff, I think, in the offseason, regardless of how this goes. And I think that Mike t look, I mean, he’s not going to be coached for life. And I think, you know when you get I mean, look, we could talk about coaching and schematics and all this stuff. They got Molly whopped by the bills on Sunday. They the bills ran basically the same two plays on that 15 play drive that ended the game. They ran the same two running plays, and the Steelers could not stop them. That is not schematics. That is the guys on the field getting whipped by the guys across from them full stop. And I don’t know how you fix that in the short term when you’ve got an old defense that’s also, by the way, really expensive. So, you know, I really think that, you know, look, this, this game, if I was the ravens, I would not run the ball, or I would not throw the ball until it was third and 30, right? I mean, like the Steelers last time we were there, what eight, nine months ago, Raven said, what, 300 yards rushing in that playoff game. I would do the I would literally copy that game plan and just do it until the Steelers for. They can stop it, and if the Steelers lose that game, then I really think the storm clouds that because like Mike t when he talks this week, and all the players talk to us, Hey, we’re still in first place. Yes, we’ve got things to correct, blah, blah, blah, but they, you know, they’ve been a first place team in name only all season. They haven’t looked like it for the most part. The two marquee wins they had were against the the Pats, when they had they got five turnovers. And then against the Colts, when they got six, those look like the anomalies. I think what we saw, what we’ve seen over the you take those two results out, they have gotten whooped by good teams all season. And, you know, by double digits at home against the Seahawks, at home against the Packers, you know, like at the chargers, you know, the last week against the bills, like it’s they are not a good team. And I think the Ravens have a chance to this is a GET RIGHT game for the Ravens. I think, I think the pressure is on. Baltimore here too. The Steelers are vulnerable, and this is a chance to kind of finish them. Maybe, perhaps this iteration of the Steelers as we know it,

Nestor Aparicio  10:57

five and a half, to make you laugh, is the spread will Graves is here. He’s one of my favorites from the Associated Press in Pittsburgh. We’re getting out doing the crab cake towards holidays. And the stakes in this one, I’m really having fun. I mean, I’m doing some other segments this week and whatnot. I want to get to Marvin Lewis, because he gave me some wisdom that I want to bring to you in regard to the Steelers earlier. But I want to stay on point with where Luke and I went, which is what you just said, which is like this, this might not be mud, this might be quicksand for the whole operation, because of the quarterback thing, right? And I remember when I wrote Purple Rain two, and they’re honoring the Purple Rain one group, they’re bringing back Super Bowl. 35 Marvin’s coming back. Kim herring just texts me. Mike Flynn, all these people are coming back. Wonder still for, you know, I mean, there’s a we’ve lost goose, I mean, gee, Shannon sharp Woodson, all those Ray, so they’re, they’re gussying it up this week. You know, they’re for this homecoming, Steelers, whatever they’re going to do, Ray’s going to dance. I’m sure, the whole deal. And I talked to Luke about this, and I said to myself, all right, the Bengals aren’t going to win the division. I don’t know. I mean, they got the bills, as we will see. And they sauce the Raven. They have the best quarterback standing right now. I mean, as far as health and where they are now, their defense, your defense. The Ravens had the worst defense in the league the first five weeks, too, so you know. And it’s the Ravens went one in five, five and, oh, and beat a bunch of stiffs, and didn’t look good doing it. And, but they’ve added to the defense on the back end, the front end, Kyle Hamilton, all of that. They’ve gotten healthier, but they don’t look great at all. And you watched them on Thanksgiving night, and they, you know, they curdled a lot of eggnog around here, but will this is where I am with, with the franchises, and this iteration, for both of them, the ravens are supposed to win 12, 1314, games. The ravens are supposed to not just win a playoff game or two or host a game. The ravens are supposed to be in Santa Clara and win the game and win the Super Bowl, because that’s what Lamar that’s the Manifest Destiny, the purple destiny of all of this. Over seven, eight years that he got screwed out of the MVP, keeps getting better, he keeps getting better, he keeps and then he’s not getting better, and then he’s not healthy, and the offensive line is trash and and the running game’s gone away, and then one wide receivers hurt. And you know, it’s not penalties as much as it’s he’s not accurate. He’s done never, I mean, it’s been like a nursery rhyme dude, like, ankles, knees, toes, hamstring. You know, every Luke’s, everybody’s trying to guess what’s wrong with him. And then he looks like John Wayne. Sometimes looks like he can outrun a defensive lineman, but doesn’t want any part of a linebacker or a safety or cornerback, right? And where both of them are, somebody’s going to win the division, somebody’s going to play a playoff game. In that playoff game, they’re going to see some combination of Jacksonville, buffalo, somebody’s going to come to town, Patrick mahomes, somebody’s coming to town to play a game in Pittsburgh or Baltimore, probably, dude, if it’s Cincinnati, you and I really need to get together first week. You know what I mean? If, if Pittsburgh and and we’re going to get together again in four weeks, right? You and I will have holidays together. And I love when you come on and really break it down. I love hearing your voices and press conferences as well. But for me, they play twice. You look at the rest of the schedule, and you can break the Steelers schedule down. The next couple weeks, the Ravens have to see Drake, may have to go to Lambeau Field and have to go to Cincinnati and see Joe burrow, so before they come to Pittsburgh at the end, whatever’s left of the mess, that is that I couldn’t say the Steelers could eliminate the Ravens. If they can eliminate the raves, it means they can win the division. If they can eliminate the ravens and open the door for the Bengals. Then we’re all then we’re all talking about Joe burrow, right? So this is weird, man, and the way the schedule makers made this when I had Marvin on, he had chuckle about it, but to your point, Steelers feel like they don’t have a quarterback. The Ravens feel like it’s Super Bowl or bust. And. And they’re fighting for their lives. And if the Steelers come in here and the ball bounces the wrong way, and they turn the ball over five times against the Steelers, they’ll get beat here. And I don’t think this is a pushover game at all for the Haywards and the Watts and the rent. I mean, I think there’s a tremendous sense of embarrassment on the Pittsburgh side of this to not come into Baltimore and have it go down like this, for Coach T and for the Rooney all of that, for their own careers and for what they’re trying to accomplish. Because ain’t many guys on the field would ring this week like really, right? And Henry and Hopkins came here specifically to touch that Lamar magic that we haven’t seen. I mean, this is a really weird time. And if the 12,000 Steeler fans are the ones celebrating at 415 and the stadiums empty again here, and the Ravens are six and seven, and have to, like, I mean, it’s been a really rocky road for both of these franchises. And I think there’s, there’s peril here, to your point. I mean, whoever’s gonna lose here, bad stuff’s going to happen franchise wise, because neither one of these trains are getting it done right now.

Will Graves  16:05

Well, yeah, but I think the ravens, at least you can point to recent history of success, right? I mean, quarterback, right, right? Like the thing that the Steelers like this see, like, what, they’re in the longest playoff victory drought since the Immaculate Reception, right? Since Franco plucked that ball off the turf. They’ve never gone this long between playoff victories, right, ever, and then in the last 50 some years, which speaks to how good they are. You know the Steeler you know the irony is, and you mentioned, like the Bengals, one of the things that really annoys Steeler fans that don’t like Mike Tomlin Is this, like, well, he’s never had a losing season, they say yes, but that doesn’t mean that that should be acceptable, that they’ve been sort of in the sort of the mushy middle now for basically the last 678, years. It’d be pretty ironic, though. Let’s say the Steelers who have Look, they’ve got to go to Detroit. Detroit is fighting for their very playoff lives. And look, we can say whatever we want about the Lions defense, that offense is still going to score points indoors. It is, you know, they have to. They have the, they have the they have the at the browns, which look the Browns are the Browns with the Steelers. Like, that’s never a gimme game for them, especially in December. And then they got the dolphins on Monday night when they’re like, they’re honoring their, their hall of, you know, their hall of fame guys. And that is going to be now you think, Oh, well, they’re going to get their pride going. Well, going. Well, they did that. They did part of that during they had a reunion of their Super Bowl 40 team during the packer game. And what happened? They got whopped in that game too, right? It’s just, it’s an interesting it’s an interesting time because, but at least the Ravens can say we have recent history to draw from that. We can kind of get it together and have a like. I think the eagle like, the Eagles like have much more recent history than that. It’s sort of the same with them. Everybody’s wringing their hands. What’s wrong with the Eagles? I still think the Eagles have the opportunity to kind of figure it out. I think the Ravens can figure it out. Lamar does not look like Lamar, but Lamar is, you know, still, when he’s at his best, is the best player of the best player of the best player League, one of the best players in the league, I think, Aaron Rodgers, who was pretty good the first six, seven weeks. What we’ve seen the last two and a half games he’s been in has been a guy that turns 42 this week, and you know, like when he got wrecked by Bosa, and he’s picking himself up off the turf and the bills are celebrating in the end zone on a scoop and score that looked like some buyers remorse coming off the field a little bit. I mean, look, he’s an ultra competitor. He’s going to the Hall of Fame. But, you know, like somebody has to it. Let I would just say I was gonna say something I probably was gonna regret. Let’s just say that, like the Steelers. It, to me, it would almost be a bad thing if the Steelers won this game, because I think the reality is this franchise needs a, you know, a make, a pretty significant makeover, and if they can stitch something together and finish nine and eight and win the division and get a home game in the playoffs, people will consider it a successful season. But maybe that should not be the standard anymore, you know. So I don’t know it’s, it is weird, like I to put this into context. I’m sort of rambling here, like, because it’s just unusual to see them in both teams in such areas of uncertainty. But if I’m the ravens, like, hey, we kicked these guys butts the last two times we saw them, but, like, fairly easily, and the Steelers don’t look any better. They do not look any better than they did the last two times a raven saw them. So, you know, I would expect the ravens to sort of figure it out, but if Lamar gets sloppy with the ball, and the Steelers have short fields like you never know. I mean, it’s, it is, but it feels like there’s more at stake for the Ravens. Because I think the ravens, you know, to your point, have higher season expectations, but for the Steelers, I think the stakes are if we get whooped again, you know, like the all the all the kick in the can down the road about not addressing what’s really going on with this team, like they’re going to have to turn around as an organization and face it.

Nestor Aparicio  19:50

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Well, I mean, at one point, the Ravens were one and five had the worst defense. Lamar was hurt. Couple their star players were hurt, roquan and. They’re in a dream position to steal the division and be in the playoffs and have a game at home, right? Like that’s what’s at stake for both of these franchises. And I think, well, three and two get it done. Well two and three get it done. Where Cincinnati and all of this, and having a quarterback and a set of wide receivers, once T Higgins gets back, that can overwhelm you and put five or six touchdowns up up over the course of a game, just by playing catch and and the running game is a little better. I mean, I’m not going to sit here and poop talk to Bengals after they beat the Ravens by three touchdowns at home on a night when everybody’s everybody’s in love with the ravens, right? Because they look good getting off the bus in the same reason I look at the Steelers and say, Ramsey, Hayward, watt, Rogers, these are guys with you know, they’re not coming to Baltimore to lay down and lose 42 to 14 this week, like I know that. And the Rogers things interesting to me. And I mentioned these the leaders in your locker room, because I have written at great lengths about accountability for har ball, for the organization, for Justin Tucker, for Mark Andrews running out the back door after he dropped The ball in Buffalo, which is really very routine for this organization to just when the dog of the game, you know, runs out the back door, and you’re a reporter and you understand that there’s, there’s not a lot of honor in that amongst guys making $20 million a year. So I’ve beaten them up about all of that. Marvin Lewis came on, and I’m so glad that we made the date earlier in the week because he gave me some great fodder for you. Because just in the middle of the chat, he’s like, I love those press conferences for Pittsburgh this week. He said I and I’m like, why? He’s like, because Aaron Rodgers and you can go watch it, listen to it, Baltimore positive, Aaron Rodgers and TJ watt said, it’s on me. It’s on me. I need to get better. We need to get better. We all need to get better. He’s like, there’s not enough of that, you know, just and that’s Marvin coming from Arizona State, the Raiders last year, seeing modern football, and he and I talking about Chris McAllister and Dwayne Starks that he because we’re talking about 35 he’s like, those guys would have gotten up after busting up a play and beating on their chest and ran like, I had to come and strangled him, pulled him back in the huddle. He’s like, but that’s the game now, and the game’s changed so much for in all of these ways. But I know one thing, man, leadership hasn’t changed. Who these people are, the heart of these football teams, and the accountability, and I feel like both of these teams think they have the heart of a champion. And to your point, there’s a lot of nude ring fingers, and you mentioned the last eight years in Pittsburgh. Well, that kind of correlates with Roethlisberger, you know, when not having a quarterback. And all the expectations here are that if somehow the Ravens can count the nine and get to the playoffs and have that game in early January that could propel them to being able to go steal a game in Denver against the kid, or to go up in New England and beat two guys that haven’t won anything in January either. But I’ve been in those locker rooms when Marlon Humphrey called his team chokers and I stood at his locker, and that was almost a decade ago now, right? And there’s been a lot of hurt feelings and missed expectations here, but on your side of the fence, there’s players that I feel are Hall of Fame caliber players to your point, haven’t tasted any more success than I love Marvin, than Marvin did in January either, and that cost you jobs. And you know, Marvin even said, you know, 16 years for me there’s going to be an end for Mike T and for har ball, for all these guys, you just got to figure out where that is. And it does feel like this is the season for some change here. Because if this, if the if the Ravens aren’t the team playing that playoff game here the first week of January, and I’m telling you that’s going to include New England Green Bay, two trips to Pittsburgh and a trip to Cincinnati, that if they survive, that they’re a playoff team, right, right?

Will Graves  24:13

Yeah, no, they would certainly improved it. I mean, it’s, you know, I actually forgot to, I didn’t report this last week, but, um, I was talking to former Raven and a guy I really, really enjoy interacting with, Patrick Queen last week, and he told me on Wednesday that they had a meeting. The defense had a meeting where they sort of aired their grievances. Everybody was upset after they lost to the bears. There was a couple of bad calls. I mean, they, you know, there’s a third down call where basically they let DJ Moore run wide open on third and 15 from the 25 and he runs wide open in the end zone. They aired their feelings out. They were going to get right. They they’re on the same page. They got each other’s back, and then they followed it up by playing like that on Sunday. So that is alarming. You know, it’s a. I, I don’t know, like, I don’t mean, look, Mike T set the bar for this. Mike T went on the team’s flagship radio station in August and said, we have this. We have the coaching, we have the players on defense to do potentially historic things. Like he said, like nobody prompted him. We didn’t drag that out of him. And, look, you’ve been around him. There’s nothing he says that. He didn’t mean to say, I’ve been in I’ve been asking this guy questions for 15 years, and you know, it’s he a he treats his interactions with us like a game, but there’s never anything. There’s not one word that he says publicly that he didn’t intend to say. Right? So, if you like that, and that’s sort of where the problem is, right, like the fans are tired of hearing the same old excuses all the time, it’s the same with horrible, same with any coach, right, with that’s in a place for a long time that hits a dry stretch. And I, you know, I think the reality is the team is just not like the roster that they thought they had versus the roster that they do have is not the same. Like, I think, like, you know, if you put this team together on Madden and you simulate it, it’s probably doing pretty good. But the reality is, you know, these guys are, they’re human beings. They’re not, you know, they’re not avatars and B, like, they’re just, they are. It’s below the line. I mean, like, we can talk about, oh, it’s just last. I mean, the defense has been bad pretty much all season. Let’s remember, in the week one and week one’s always a weird week, but like, the Justin fields and the Jets did whatever they wanted, and for the most part, with the exception of one or two games, like the second game against the Bengals, where Flacco turned into a pumpkin, finally, like they have been, they have been bad. I mean, and it’s, you know, it 12 games in, you kind of are what you are, right?

Nestor Aparicio  26:35

So, whereas, well, then the ravens are six and six too, and just

Will Graves  26:41

ravens can point to, hey, look, we had, we were our best player the first, you know, a big chunk of the first season, the defense was terrible. The defense has gotten better. Lamar has been okay, but you’re right. They have when I’ve watched the ravens, I have not been overwhelmed. When I, you know, like, I have not been like, the was it the Jets they had at home a couple of weeks ago, right? And it was, like, it was not pretty, like, it took a while for them to kind of get a handle of the Jets who were not good.

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Nestor Aparicio  27:08

Well, they’re losing both battles at the line of scrimmage, similar to the Steelers against the bills on the weekend like that. The real problem is the offensive line hasn’t been great, and Lamar isn’t healthy and and they’re not getting first down and distance. They’re not in second and desirable. And they’re certainly, once they get the third, they get in trouble, and they’re punting more. Got a good punter, by the way. You know, we saw that against the Jets too. But for me, this, both of these franchises have the what would the standard, right? Who am I talking to, right? I mean, the standard is the standard, right, as Mike T would say, was that you in the locker room that they were getting chippy with, will it sounded like your voice with the questions with Rogers and with the with TJ watt,

Will Graves  27:55

no, I was actually in the AP, I was in the bills locker room writing about the bills because they won the game and the AP, we service that. We service the globe. But I’m, you know, I’m with the Steelers during the week. But look, there’s like, the Steelers have every reason to, you know, be chippy. They have not played well, like, you know, it’s one thing if they were losing, playing well and losing these games, these tight games. But they have not. I mean, they have the games they have lost. They’ve deserved to lose. It wasn’t like they got, you know, unlucky or played a, you know, it wasn’t like the commanders game against the Broncos the other night, where they kind of went tooth and nail down to the very end. I mean, it hasn’t really been like that. They haven’t been they haven’t lost games at the wire. They’ve been bludgeoned, especially in the second half of some of these games. So, you know, it’s top of the time is running out. You You know, you point, there’s some ringless fingers in there. Look. Cam Hayward. He’s in year 15. His rookie year was my rookie year. He’s still playing at a pretty high level for a defensive lineman in his late 30s. But, I mean, like, this is this? I don’t know if this is it for him, but like, you know, time is running out. Rogers. You know, Rogers, this season playing with house money, he’s going to Hall of Fame. It doesn’t matter. Like he could have looked like Johnny Unitas with the Chargers. He has not done that, at least not yet.

Nestor Aparicio  29:01

And that was hit the broken hand thing, which is crazy. Well, and

Will Graves  29:04

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then, and they’re in that limits a little bit what they can do offensively, because he can’t get under center, right? So they had him running out of the pistol. But the line hasn’t been great. You know, Broderick Jones is out for probably there. I mean, they put him on IR on Saturday. He’s probably going to miss the last five games, so he could only be eligible to come back for the last one against the ravens, as it is. Ravens, as it is, they have lay offensive. You know, Arthur Smith was doing wonders early in the season because they don’t outside of DK Metcalf. They don’t really have a big play guy, but they’ve been churning out points because they’ve been converting turnovers into points. They’ve been effective in the red zone, but now they’re not even doing that. And that is a, you know, there’s no chunk plays. There’s no vertical passing game. So to win games, you either have to get short fields or you have to consistently have 12, 1315, play drives without penalties, without drop passes on third and six by converting a fourth and two. They’re not doing that. It’s, you know, Mike always talks about, you know, we want to be a team on the rise, right? That’s one. Of his tominisms, you know, the he famously said a long time ago, we want to unleash hell in December. Look what happened last year. They collapsed down the stretch. It is hard, you know, outside of the light the late run in 2023 and then in 22 when they started bad, and Pickett was a rookie, and they kind of got it together and got it to nine and eight. That was a and TJ was hurt. They That was a weird year. But like outside, for the most part, the last 678, years, they have collapsed down the stretch. Let’s remember the year they in 2020, they won the Division. They started at 11, oh, 12 and oh, and then they ended, you know, they’re getting housed in the first round the playoffs by the browns. It’s to me, you know, that’s part of that players, but part of that’s coaching too, right? Like they have not made the adjustments down the stretch necessary to be successful. And you know, that is why, I think that’s one of the reasons the fans, I think, are so upset here, so because, like, they just sort of see that, like, I tweeted this a few weeks ago, but it seems like we’re taking a different route to the same destination, right? It’s a different path, but different quarterbacks, maybe different some of the faces are different. But, like, the reality is, and this is the question that I that’s going to have to I’m going to we’re going to ask Mike that. I’m probably going to be one that has to ask Mike the, you know, the week after, whenever their season ends, which will probably be after that ravens game at the end of the season, like you talk about, there’s no carry over year, every year, every year is different because the players are different. But if the coaching staff is the same and the results are the same and the results are not the standard. What does that say about the coaching staff? Look, this does not mean this is the problem here, right? Mike Tomlin is a good coach, like he is. There’s not a person on the planet that thinks that he is a terrible coach. I mean, they’re, they’re, they’re okay. The lunatic fringe thinks he’s a terrible coach. But, like, sometimes stuff just, you know, it just runs out. Like, it just like there’s no but nobody coaches forever. Belichick didn’t cook. Belichick badly wanted to break George house’s record for or Don Jules record, I’m sorry for, for career victories. It didn’t happen.

Nestor Aparicio  31:50

How many quarterbacks have they had since Roethlisberger? I’m being serious like, I think it’s six. Let’s go through the names of who they are, right? Mitch Trubisky,

Will Graves  31:59

Kenny Pickett, Mason, Rudolph Justin fields, Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers, yes, six

Nestor Aparicio  32:04

in I mean, Russell Wilson and Aaron Rodgers at the like, not looking like Unitas at the end, or, you know, name it at the end as a ram or something. But like, not in any way. Would anyone look at that and judge if it was any other coach and say, Oh, you didn’t win the Super Bowl. Imagine that, you know, like, I but, but then again, it’s, Hey, dude, did you buy the ingredients? Weren’t you part of, like, right this? And, you know, look, Lamar Jackson was on the market a couple of years ago for any of these teams, if they wanted to completely retool, rebuild their team around a running quarterback that ran in the linebackers that now is and listen, every time I bring up, he’s been hurt. Luke yells. Me just burrows, been hurt. You know, they all get hurt, right? I mean, I get it. But I also I wonder when Lamar, Lamar is like a 70 something million dollar, I mean, they have to renegotiate with him, the expense of it, where you are, what you can put around it. And this year they’re like, well, the offensive line is the place where we’ve ascending center, right tackle, we’re figuring out the guards, and it just hasn’t happened. And when that doesn’t happen, the whole operation, you know, the quarterback gets hurt, and then he’s gimpy and down the line. And as much as like Snoop Huntley and Mason Rudolph, who you’ve already mentioned. It’s just, I saw that kid play for the Patriots the other night, right? I you know, we all see what Matt Stafford looks like when he’s healthy, and what Lamar looks like and Josh Allen when he has help around him, but it really is a symphony in an orchestra, and I’m not here stumping for Tomlin or for Harbaugh, one way or another. But as I said to Marvin, it’s really hard to do. It’s hard to win, man.

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Will Graves  33:46

Well, right? I mean, look, and if you you mentioned Marvin who, by, by the way, I’ve you know, when he was coaches at Cincinnati, would come to town, love Marvin Lewis, like, great guy, okay, but that being said, if you look at Mike T’s resume and you look against Marvin’s like, post the Packers Super Bowl when they lost in 20 after the 2010 season, they’ve got a couple of wins they get, you know, they won a couple of games in the 16 playoffs, yeah, and one game in the 15 playoffs. But other than, I mean, Marvin famously, would get the mangles into the playoffs and not win. Other than that, that’s resumes are pretty similar, right? I mean, and that, I think that’s part of the fans angst like but to your point, though, look, this has been an organizational failure. They they missed on Kenny Pickett. Look, I covered Kenny Pickett. I when he was at Pitt all five years. Very average last year, really good set of circumstances kind of led to that. Mark Whipple being the offensive coordinator of Pitt, part of that and becomes a first round pick. Too much pressure. You’re the guy after Ben the matt Canada was over matched as an NFL offense coordinator. And look, Kenny’s on his fourth team now. I mean, he’s on his fourth team in 14 months, and he can’t even be the backup in Oakland or in Vegas. I mean, he’s a he’s the third stringer behind a Connell and Geno Smith. What does that tell you their inability to like they picked Mason Rudolph as you. Know, they had said they had a first round grade on me. I love Mason. I I love that dude. He’s a locker room, but everybody needs Mason. Rudolph’s in their locker but they had a first they said they had a first round grade on him. Ben froze him out. They struggled to develop and then when Ben got hurt in 19 and he had an extended audition, he didn’t exactly, you know, separate himself, didn’t, didn’t announce, hey, I’m the next guy. Then in the 2020, draft, instead of, like, trying to find another guy. Let’s remember, they drafted Chase Claypool like three spots before the Eagles took Jalen Hurts, which is brought up here, you know, like, because they were trying to load up for Ben’s last run. What they’ve done this year, and this is the part where we’re getting all upset in the moment, like I should do, what I am really good at, is take, let’s 30,000 foot view this. This season was more about trying to stay competitive. If we If you told me, like in July 1, if we talked July 1, I would have said, this season is just about trying to stay competitive and they and build a roster that whenever they find their next franchise quarterback is ready to compete right away, and that, for the most part, is what they have done. I mean that, like, it’s the path to six and six that like, if you said there was no

Nestor Aparicio  36:02

ceiling for 14 wins for, I mean, there was a ceiling for 11 or 12, and you still might get the nine or 10 right.

Will Graves  36:10

I mean, and I think it’s like the path to this point had they like, if we coin flip a couple of these games and say they had lost to the Patriots or lost to the Colts, but, you know, beating the Bengals on that Thursday night game where Flacco went off or, you know, had had beaten the bears, the bears, you know, in Chicago a couple, we would probably feel a little differently, right? They’re still sort of like they’re kind of being who they you know, water finds itself well, they’re sort of at where they were kind of supposed to be at. But I think it’s the path and the way that it’s looked that’s gotten the fans upset. But look, the reality like they didn’t trade for a number two wide receiver at the deadline. They’re part of that was my understanding, is they wanted to hold on as much draft capital as possible so that they, let’s say they they’re picking 18th in the draft, and the guy they want is going to go in the top six. They want to have as much capital as possible to trade off, right? So that’s why. And look, Jacoby Myers, being on this team is not the difference between them going to the Super Bowl and going seven and 10. He’s not they’re sort of they. I mean, like, we can get all upset about that, the way that Mike Todd like, the way that they the Frank, they’ve looked up late the last seven weeks, but they’re sort of where they were. I mean, like, you know, but that’s with the part of the problem in you, but

Nestor Aparicio  37:21

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it’s still sitting there for them, right, right? But, and you, if they beat the Ravens twice, they’re going to get me the feelings are really going to be heard around here, because I don’t think the Ravens can go and win in Cincinnati, New England and Green Bay. I mean, the ravens are going to lose more

Will Graves  37:33

games here. You brought it up. You mentioned about the ravens, and I think what like that’s part that’s another level of the frustration. And I’m sure it’s the same in Baltimore, the conference looks gettable, like, for the first time in a while, you don’t have to go crummy. And mahomes is like, we got to go deal with my

Nestor Aparicio  37:50

home like the Chiefs Lamar were both in the hole. To your point, they were Steelers. Were just first place, first place, first place. THE GAMBLERS were still all betting on the ravens to come back. Nobody was betting on burrow to show up, let alone all last week, talking like, how could he look? I said it looked like he came out from a spa on Thursday night. And the difference in Thursday night’s game, and I thought this a lot too, was that he didn’t play on Sunday the Flacco played that other game, and I’m like, he was the only guy on the field that didn’t, wasn’t in a car crash 72 hours earlier. And it kind of looked the part. I don’t know what all of that means. I just know, like, if I were picking up teams, I’d take Joe burrow first against all these people. I would right.

Will Graves  38:28

But I think the reality is, you to your point, we’re going to have two teams probably seated first and second in the AFC with quarterbacks that don’t have experience winning in January, because they just haven’t had the opportunity yet. I mean, Nick’s, you know, and Drake may so like, it looks gettable. It look like, that’s part of that’s the level of frustration is like it looks like this might be the year where there isn’t a Tom Brady led patriots blocking our path. There isn’t a Patrick mahomes and the Chiefs block in our path. It looks gettable. So, like, I can imagine in Baltimore, that is what one of the reasons the level of frustration is high, because, like, all the stuff outside of the building that kind of had to happen for them to maybe ascend to really, to really be like the team in the AFC, all of that stuff happening unfortunately, like they have, Lamar gets hurt, the defense is bad and sort of here we are, but I still think that’s why the raids can get to the playoffs, like, I think they’ve got a pretty a puncher’s chance, because there’s nobody, there’s going to be nobody ahead of them that’s going to have like, the pedigree, right? There’s not so again, I’m not trying to sound bullish on the ravens, but I just think that, like, you know, they’re not removed, far removed from being a really, really, really good team. The Steelers are,

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Nestor Aparicio  39:32

like, they are, and that might be what gets, gets Tomlin fired, right?

Will Graves  39:37

Like, literally, I mean, look, he’s not going to get fired. But there might be, like, a Hey, Mike, if like, if the Giants, if like, the mayors and the in the Rooneys are, have been friends for literally 80 years, right? And if the mayors call the Rooneys and say, hey, look, we got a coach. We had a head coach opening you got one of the best in the game, we’ll give you 2020. Seven, first round pick for in a 20, 27/3 round pick for Mike T there’s a chance then that would only happen with Mike’s blessing, to be very, very, very clear. But sometimes, look, you know, the guy’s going to the hall, like Andy Reid had a great run in Philadelphia. It, you know, it ended the way it ended. It needed to end. He’s obviously found success. I mean, like this is not like this. This is such a as a journalist. It’s a hard line to walk because you want to, you need to. We need to accept that this team is not playing up. Has not looked like it’s playing up to its standard, and the coach needs to be responsible for that. When you’re going on 10 years, what NFL coach would last 10 years without a playoff victory? I mean, you know, unless you’re playing, unless it’s the Bengals, right, unless you’re, you’re Marvin during his time with the Bengals. But even the Bengals got rid of the Bengals. Also the flip the thing there is a Bengals also had, like, some really, really bad seasons during that stretch. The Steelers haven’t, like, that’s the part of the problem. What do you you know, Steelers

Nestor Aparicio  40:55

haven’t stunk enough to have their Sam darnold or their Daniel Jones or whatever that experiment would be for them. I mean, they didn’t even think to give Roethlisberger, he wasn’t a one one.

Will Graves  41:07

8

No. I mean, you know, I mean, but they were six and 10, you know, the year that they that they had drafted 10th or 11th. I can’t remember which one it was. And let’s remember Dan Rooney was the one who said, this is the guy we’re getting, right? But, like, Look at this. If they finish nine and eight, they will or eight, eight and one which is possible like they will pass the they will either tie or pass the Cowboys record for most consecutive non losing seasons in NFL history. Now, the Cowboys did that in the 60s and the 70s and the 80s, when there was no real free agency, when you basically could get your roster, build your roster, and keep those guys forever and pay them whatever you wanted, because that’s just how the league worked. Right then, right so to do it in the era of free agency is really, really super impressive, like, like, incredibly impressive. But, you know, like, fans also would like to see them win games in January, and they haven’t done that. And, you know, the thing is this look, we can talk like this is the other elephant in the room that my team is struggling to address, and these playoff games that they’ve lost six straight, the defense has been lit up, and basically all of them. And then Mike T is a defensive guy, so, like, that’s the other part of this. That’s so that’s so tough the guys, like, He’s almost like, it’s weird. Like, we, I rattled off six quarterbacks. They haven’t bottomed out. They haven’t bottomed out. That’s coaching. That’s good coaching, right? If you don’t bottom out when you basically have a turnstile a quarterback, look at the look at the browns, for example.

Nestor Aparicio  42:28

Well, that’s always the case I make for Tomlin, it’s like every year they’re minus wrote the headline today, but they’re in the way again, and they’re in the way with a 42 year old quarterback with a busted up nose and defense can’t tackle and yet, five and a half point dog coming to town. I’ll hear all of that, dude. I’ve been at this a long time. This is a threatening game, and the defense knows Lamar, and they’ll school it up, and, you know, the ball will squirt a certain way like I don’t expect either team to be particularly shamed in this game. I expect this to be a fourth quarter, 1916, 21, eight, yeah, whatever. I just expect it to be that kind

Will Graves  43:07

of game, maybe. But I think the Steelers, I just think, like the Steelers are going to like the offense has regressed, and, you know, there’s been some really curious play calling. Pat Friar moon with other Payne is a top 10 tight end can’t get on the field. Arthur Smith seems enamored with these various formations that, you know, like they have multiple, like they multiple third and 6/3, and eights on Sunday, and firewood is not out there, and Darnell Washington is. And you’re like, I mean, look, Darnell is an intriguing guy, good kid, and obviously a physical Marvel. Come on, like, what are we doing here? I just think it’s hard for me to imagine the way the Steelers can’t stop the run and they can’t score. It’s hard for me to imagine unless the Ravens hand give the ball away three, four times. It’s hard for me to imagine that Derek, Henry and Lamar won’t find enough to get the push they need to be successful. I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s the reality.

Nestor Aparicio  43:55

I bring you on Baltimore positive, because you’re so positive about the the Ravens here this week. Will Graves is here at the Associated Press, stay in overtime. Hey, man, thanks. You always stay extra time. And, I mean, I know penguins. No, I don’t need any of that. I mean, just this. I’ll bug you again in a month, and we’ll measure this thing and see where we are and see how badly the Ravens would need to win that game in January in order to be a playoff team. And the measurement and what the Steelers, because I think people just expect the Steelers to fall apart, not win a game again, or, sorry, like it’s starting to feel that way, right?

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Will Graves  44:27

It definitely feels that way. And look, I mean, they haven’t done much on the field to to negate that sentiment. I mean, you know, like, that’s the reality of it, like they just, like they, they have looked it’s the first time that they’ve really, really looked bad. Not just bad week, bad, but like it’s been poor play, and I don’t know how you fix that in a sustainable way over the last five weeks. It’s just, it’s really hard to see.

Nestor Aparicio  44:52

It’s a weird Pittsburgh, Baltimore week. I love it. It’s intriguing. You know the sports media guy who’s been at this my whole life? Um. Loves talking about all this, and certainly the implications of all this big week around here for the Maryland crab cake tour as well. We’re doing three shows next week, two more shows for the holidays. They’re all up at Baltimore positive. I’ll continue talking about that. As well as our friends at GBMC, who kept me healthy. I had my colonoscopy two weeks ago, which, you know, I joked about and kidded about, and then, and then I woke up and Dr scary said, Hey, you had precancerous polyps. I’m like what you know. So my thanks to GBMC for keeping me healthy during the holidays. That is my PSA for you to go get yourself checked in any way that you male, female, old, young, black, white, you know, think you’re healthy like I did, feeling good about the holidays, but the egg NOGs a little bit better this year, and we got great football to talk about this week, even though it hasn’t though it hasn’t been great football, it’s great intrigue. I’m Nestor, we’re W, N, S, D. Am 1570 Towson, Baltimore. We never stop talking Baltimore positive. Stay with us.