Luke Jones and Nestor discuss what is next step for Orioles in an offseason of unlimited possibility โ and no Camden Yards lease or Black Friday ticket deals for fans.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
talk, point, trade, year, baseball, orioles, elias, bullpen, payroll, team, lease, offseason, players, john, santander, pitcher, ravens, pitching, work, give
SPEAKERS
Luke Jones, Nestor J. Aparicio
Nestor J. Aparicio 00:01
Welcome home we are wn St. Am 50 70,000 Baltimore and Baltimore positive weโre taking the Maryland crabcake tour out on the road. Itโs all brought to you by our friends at the Maryland lottery weโll have ravens scratch offs to give away while they last before I get the scented gingerbread and even better than that the peppermint because I like peppermint this time here. Weโre gonna be Cocoโs. Iโm wearing the CoCo shirt next Wednesday in the afternoon for two of the five. Next Thursday will be gertrudes at the BMA with Dan Rodricks. And the folks at the BMA and talking some art talking some holidays, talking about just a great, great show that Dan is doing that I donโt think he needs any help selling tickets at this point. But itโs still a great concept. Baltimore, you have no idea and then next Friday, weโre going to be in Hollywood casino up in Perry Phil just over the bridge, great, great sports book up there. Theyโve done some rebranding, they have great food, really enjoy my pen play card when Iโm up there. And weโre going to be there on Friday afternoon. And Tom Kelso is going to be joining us in Maryland stadium authority to expound further upon the information in regard to the stadia the land whoโs getting all the money whoโs paying for it, US and Luke doesnโt care because he lives in Pennsylvania because heโs not a part of this process. Lucas here Luke Jones, of course, you know, we talk a lot football bro, and Iโm getting some baseball vibe. Itโs Thanksgiving week here got the Ravens going out to LA. And when I think of like offseason baseball when it was good around here in the 90s, and Angeles was trying to compete the the good old days of the Players Association, you know, holding all the cards. I remember and I donโt brag about this much because itโs nothing to be proud of. But Curt Schilling Need I say more. But Curt Schilling when he signed with the Red Sox and Theo Epstein feel what the Shante Kurtz house over Thanksgiving dinner and they sort of work things out for big contracts and this time here, I guess the Phillies sort of open things for your brother in law and all the dark side of your family that supports the National League in the in the the Phillies with the Aaron Nola contract, which was like, how much like Lamar money, you know, and what itโs, itโs not going to be like that here. The offseason. Here is me talking to the former Maryland stadium authority had about how the current baseball owner who beat his brother up in court last year is now trying to hoodwink West Moore and all of our, you know, all of our citizens into giving him full control, giving him all the land to do what God knows what he had that an idea. But this is the offseason weโre in where they donโt even have a lease here. Iโm going to continue to talk about that. And Iโm gonna let you to continue to talk about like, how theyโre going to do better than Kyle Gibson, and what theyโre going to do with Ryan mountcastle, and how theyโre going to live, you know, after I donโt know name any of the guys that could be coming or going. And this is also a time for dreamers to dream about how theyโre going to package, Colton Couser and something else to get something else and something else so and we donโt even know what whoโs the shortstop, a new third baseman, itโs because we got a rookie of the year, and we got the next Rookie of the Year about to come up. So an embarrassment of riches of baseball to discuss really, I mean, thereโs a lot to discuss here. I donโt think you and Iโve talked baseball since we spoke back from BWI that morning from Arlington saying
Luke Jones 03:20
what happened? Yeah, itโs been a minute but first and foremost, I do want to at least give a nod. Gunnar Henderson this past week named Rookie of the Year, Brandon Hyde Name Manager of the Year Adley rutschman. And Gunnar Henderson were top 10 And Al MVP voting Kyle Bradish. Fourth and Cy Young Award voting. So right there, you just talked about the embarrassment of riches, still so many things to like, even with questions about the lease and payroll and whatโs next for a team that won 101 games, but itโs trying to get over the hump in October. So a lot of
Nestor J. Aparicio 03:55
pay payroll together. Thank you for doing that. Thatโs really, I mean, Iโm not kissing. Anybody knows how I feel about you and being educated. But you cannot talk about this baseball franchise, and its dysfunction. And the money thatโs been sucked out of it by by the family and where the moneyโs going to come from, to support whatever needs to be supported here. And I itโs a good time to talk about that. It really is. And the Ravens with the by next week and being really good. The rams are going to be good or bad whether they beat the Chargers or not. This is a good time to talk about the future because the future is now.
Luke Jones 04:32
Yeah, well, and they won 101 games. I mean, thereโs so much to like about this current club. It really is. And I thought it was interesting at the end of last week and this was kind of something that was lost in the wash because the Ravens were getting ready to kick off against the Bengals on Thursday night, but we talked about it at the end of the year Nesta that the Ravens or the Orioles excuse me, had this long list of arbitration eligible players of a 16 got up to 17 because they acquired San Hilliard 17 players EHRs eligible eligible for arbitration, they tendered or agreed to deals with all of them on Thursday. So that alone now, do I think all 17 of those players are going to be with them on opening day? No, of course not. But that alone is going to represent a pretty sizable increase in payroll. And look, Iโm not saying that. I donโt say that to pat them on the back because their payroll was so low. These last couple of years, we know. But as it pertains to the lease, the long term viability, financial planning, you know, even if youโre just Michael is in the front office kind of waiting for Okay, well, whatโs, you know, Whatโs Mr. Angeloโs going to say the payroll is going to be whatโs our budget going to be? These are all, itโs all planning, right? You all have to you have to think about that, especially with all these young players, right? So thereโs a lot that goes into it. But I was surprised right off the bat, that Jorge Mateo got a contract Ryan McKenna got a contract, I mean, guys that I thought very much would have been nontender. candidates were are at least here for the time being. And again, that doesnโt mean that theyโre going to be on the opening day roster. So much can happen between now and then. I think a lot will happen between now and then. Because as much as we talk about free agency, I think, given the state of the farm system, I mean, you just laid out shortstop and third days and you just said it in passing, but yeah, you have Gunnar Henderson is Rookie of the Year, Jordan Westbrook who was already here, and Jackson Holliday, who, whether heโs going to be here opening day or may 24. Chances are weโre going to see him in Baltimore in the first half of next season, barring something unforeseen so
Nestor J. Aparicio 06:40
and baseball fans know that weโve seen the end of Adam Frazier, right? Yeah,
Luke Jones 06:45
I mean, I wouldnโt want Adam Frazier back at this point. I mean, I, I wasnโt fond of that signing last winter, let alone bringing him back for another year. Look, he had a good first half, whatever, itโs fine. But the point is, they I just named some names and Joey Ortiz was already blocked at triple A Norfolk this past year, go look at what his numbers were playing shortstop slash second base. Point is something is going to have to give because they canโt canโt keep just hoarding all these prospects, because at some point in time, you either have nowhere for them to go, or in the case of some guys, they might start to lose some value because some of them are gonna pan out. I mean, we talked about this with Kyle sours about a year ago, he would have had way more trade value for the Orioles a year and a half ago, but it happens, you know, itโs not the end of the world. He wasnโt like their best prospect or anything like that. But youโve got all this, all of these assets in your system. And you have to figure out one where theyโre gonna play and then two for the guys who we identify as someone weโre willing to part with in the right deal. Okay, and what are you going to target so, you know, people will talk about free agency and look, thereโs names out there. Otani Blake Snell go down the list guys at the top of that free agent market. I mean, we know the Orioles arenโt going to be in on them. Should they be sure will they be no I mean, because you just have to live in reality of of what how theyโre going to proceed. But there are a number of intriguing names you know, guys that are approaching free agency. You know, Corbin Burns has been thrown his name has been thrown out there. Class now has been mentioned just not for the Orioles specifically but in passing You know, there are guys Dylan sees who has an extra year of club control. You know, there are some some starting pitchers who are expected to be available it with the right trade offer that kind of look at the Orioles and say okay, you have prospects A B and C that weโre not really sure where theyโre going to fit. Can we move those guys along with a couple other pieces to to lamb that what theyโre an ace or a number two or number three starting pitcher,
Nestor J. Aparicio 08:52
you know, the last thing like this Bedard but the podar was bloomed you know it was the only traded him Yeah, right right. Last time that theyโve had to trade a Couser or Westbrook trade a real player I mean, there are some fans are gonna get their feelings hurt like on the trading deadline when they decide trade man Seanie or BJ sir off. Yeah, we go through the history of any of that. But I donโt want to say something blockbuster Re. But there should be a WNS D tax brought to you by Coons, Baltimore, Ford, at some point that theyโve done something to trade a guy we know and like, for a pitcher. We know and like better and we should expect that as fans Yeah.
Luke Jones 09:35
Itโs like I said at some point in time, youโre just you donโt have room for all these guys. I so what are you going to do otherwise? I mean, are you just going to have these guys just play at triple A and I get it you want organizational depth? Iโm not saying you give away prospects. But if you can land a Corbin burns if you can land a deal and see if you can land Shane Bieber I mean, I mentioned glass now I donโt know what the rays traded within the division probably Not, you know, but but those are the kinds of guys that are expected to be available. But what are you going to park with? And what complicates this for me is, I think a name that would come up right away, because typically when a team trades, a pitcher of that ilk, what do they usually want in return, theyโre probably going to want a young pitcher in return. DL Hall, you look at him and say, Okay, maybe heโs not gonna fit in the rotation. But he might be there closer this coming year or could project to be there closer, because theyโre not going to have Felix Batista. So you always have to weigh those different elements. But, you know, you have guys like Joey Ortiz, you have guys like Kobe mayo, you have different players that triple A or double A on the way to triple A that you just kind of look at it and say, Is there really going to be a spot for them in Baltimore at this point in time, and if there isnโt, then you want to maximize your value, you donโt want to hold on to guys too long. And then, you know, they have diminishing value, or Westberg
Nestor J. Aparicio 10:58
value is having been in the big leagues and looking like now a semi ordinary major league player, you know, above average, you know, far, I donโt know, but I donโt know if he would have been worth more before he got here. Just you know, Iโm saying like I, I often wonder, but itโs all in the eye of the beholder. And itโs all based on the need to, itโs all need. Yeah. And
Luke Jones 11:18
letโs be clear, Iโm, Iโm, I donโt disagree with your sentiment, you know, Jordan Westberg. I liked Westberg. I still like Westberg. But yeah, he didnโt, he didnโt tear the cover off the ball when he came up. He was okay. Better than Adam Frazier down the stretch, Iโll continue to point that out, which is why I was a little frustrated that he didnโt play more. Instead of that being a platoon the way it worked out. But the point is you have take your pick, like Coke or Pepsi, right with with all these different prospects that they have at different at the same positions, you can kind of say, Who do you prefer? And then itโs like, okay, thatโs fine, then what are you going to do with the other guy because you want to get something in return, having this great farm system is awesome. But itโs not just to supply players for your major league club, itโs also to eventually make trades that will augment other positions that you have some need, like starting pitching, for example, you know, so itโs gonna be really interesting to see how it plays out. You know, I already mentioned if 17 players that were arbitration eligible that they tendered or signed all of them at Thursdayโs deadline, which was a little surprising. But again, it doesnโt necessarily mean that theyโre all going to be here for the long haul. Because we know how that works with young controllable players. But, you know, it really is a case for the Orioles at this point that when, if weโre working under the assumption and itโs itโs not an unfair assumption, itโs reality until they suggest otherwise, that theyโre not going to be trying to land a massive big fish in free agency, then, okay, if youโre going to try to acquire a top half of the rotation starter, how are you going to do it? Is it going to be you know, Eduardo Rodriguez, whoโs a little bit lower on that list where Okay, could you sign him to a three year deal? Letโs say, you know, itโs not gonna be Aaron Nola money. And heโs not granola in terms of quality as a pitcher. So is it that if itโs not that even, then it is the trademark it then it is? What are you giving up for Corbin burns? What are you giving up for? Maybe Dylan sees, you know, who What are you giving up for Shane Bieber. So itโs going to be fascinating to see how it plays out. Because, you know, you look at where they stand right now, you know, position player wise, itโs tough to expect a move to be made there, you know, in terms of adding, right. Even if you can make an argument that they could still add a middle of the order bat that would make their lineup even better, but just based on what they have, as far as the depth in their organization. You know, itโs hard to predict that because they have guys that theyโre trying to create opportunities for. So you look on the pitching side, and you say, Okay, I like the the overall makeup of the rotation. But whether itโs an ace, whether itโs a number two that kind of settles in between Bradish and Grayson Rodriguez, you know, however you want to order the guyโs someone in the top half of the rotation. Thatโs, thatโs what theyโre looking to land here. You know, they need to be doing better than Jordan Lyles and Kyle Gibson the last two offseason. So I think Mike Elias recognizes that itโs just a matter of gotta go out and do it. And what are you going to part with? If it is a trade? Who are you going to trade and you want to hope that you donโt trade the wrong guy, and then keep the guy in your system that maybe doesnโt end up being as good? So I mean, these are, these are the questions that theyโre trying to figure out right now. And these are good problems. Letโs be clear, they have assets to go out and get a picture like that. But what are they going to give up? Are they going to ultimately pull the trigger on it? And you know, whoever it is, are they going to come in and do the job because we saw at the trade deadline? You know, Jack Flaherty didnโt work out so well. So I mean, itโs just and then we never really know you
Nestor J. Aparicio 14:58
know, wind With that veteran guy that sustains them that the Orioles could have had, right you know, in shopping and you gave a bunch of names last offseason you thought they should have done more in the offseason, you thought they should have done more at the trading deadline. I donโt know where that is. I mean, Scherzer Chase changed teams and wound up not being the guy that was the difference maker in the end, strangely enough,
Luke Jones 15:24
you never know. I mean, you never really know. And we talked about that. And I didnโt say that to give Mike Elias and the Orioles a total pass. I mean, for me, it was still you needed to add another bullpen arm. But the way those games played out was the bullpen the biggest factor of why they lost. I mean, you know that their starting pitching got knocked around really badly. So and they didnโt talk
Nestor J. Aparicio 15:46
about Mark Andrews getting knocked out with the Ravens this week, and what thatโs going to mean, the ball Teesta thing, you know, I mean, certainly, and thatโs a toll on them. In the end. It did. And it wasnโt even
Luke Jones 15:59
so much the three losses to the Rangers because again, those games got out of hand early, you know, so itโs not as though Felix Batista was gonna come in and pitch the third inning. But that is another big factor at work here. I mean, thereโs gonna be thereโs been so much oxygen for adding, starting pitching and rightfully so I get that. I donโt disagree with that sentiment, but you better fortify your bullpen. And look, if you tell me right now that you think DL Hawk could potentially be the closer Hey, he pitch really well at the end of last season against lefties and righties. So Iโll hear that. But you better add another high leverage guy to go with him because you know what? took him out of the seven things which he just did. Right, right. And we talked about this when we talked about this when they traded Jorge Lopez in 22, Batista moved into the closerโs role and did a phenomenal job. But the problem for that team down the stretch, you know, they still played well. But the seventh and eighth inning became a little bit more of a struggle for them. So, you know, I mean, you just kind of look at where they are with their bullpen. Who are you really going into trust and on the back end and the bullpen held up admirably without Batista down the stretch? But letโs face it, it was dicey. No, it was quite dicey on many occasions, especially when they had that September road trip that and no off days for what, two and a half weeks, or whatever it was. So theyโve got to figure that out. And thatโs part of the equation here too. Do you trade? Do you trade one of your prospects or a package of some of your prospects? And Iโm not saying your top guys. But do you look to move some of your minor league minor leaguers to add another high leverage reliever, you know, can you count on doing it the way theyโve done it in the last couple of years, which by the way, has worked out really nicely. I mean, theyโve theyโve, you know, look at what Danny coulomb did for them last year. I mean, they, they acquired him right before the season started. And he was one of their best relievers. But I donโt know if thatโs all you, you can count on that strategy alone, to make this bullpen good enough, because again, Batista is not walking through the door until spring of 25. So youโve got to figure that out. And thatโs not to say that youโre going to find someone thatโs going to be a clonal, Batista. I mean, thatโs not realistic, but you certainly need to give yourself some better arms in the back end of that bullpen. And, you know, weโll see how it plays out again, DL Hall. Looks like he could be that but I just made mention, if youโre going to try to land someone like Corbin burns, or Shane Bieber or Dylan Cece, guess what? Nestor some of those teams, they might want DL Hall. So thatโs where then you get into all right, what are you going to give up? And then whatโs that? What is that going to mean in terms of consequences for your 2024 rosters? So yeah, itโs
Nestor J. Aparicio 18:44
really complicated. I mean, itโs a it is a puzzle. And we talk so much here over 25 years in regard to the football team, and the clock of well theyโll find a Kyle van Noy, theyโll find this theyโll find the that good baseball teams during the course of the year find, you know, players from Kansas City that nobody wants to come in and become your cleanup hitter. Like things happen, right? I mean, in on any of these teams, but baseball side. We have never really been in this because Iโve been on the air 32 years. I mean, they werenโt dealing Alex that show and Jeffrey Hammonds, they werenโt dealing. Lord knows the Mark Smith. I mean, Iโm just going through the Adam loions Iโm going through all these first round draft picks and these guys and names. These were always the guy whether it was Ken Gerhart Craig Worthington. Pick anybody you want that was a prospect, be like them dealing Cedric Mullins two years ago, they just didnโt do it. When you when you got a guy over performing the salary in the modern era. Thatโs thatโs the honeypot when you have Jonathan scope working on the cheap or even Manny Machado working on the cheap before you get rid of him, but then you try to replenish it At the Machado trade, you and I talked about had they really done this had Buchan to Cat not want to squeeze every squat out of Matt Wieters in an effort to try to win right wringing it out and everything he did with the bullpen and the way they manage the bullpen. Buck was on the front end of neat innings. Letโs hide him out at the Hampton Inn over there in Norfolk. Weโll get him up here. Got him out of town and they will find him out there wasnโt a bad book but you know, bucks wife said nice things about me. So Iโm trying to be better to book. Baseball is different man, this offseason is different than any other offseason? Because they havenโt. They have a lease problem. Iโll continue to say that. And that affects every part of what heโs going to say up heโs a liar about budgeting and investment and whether I can afford pick the player Henderson rutschman pick whoever Aaron Nola the next picture, whatever it is money, money, money, money, money, money, I donโt have any poor little pitiful me, Iโm little broke, John, all of thatโs coming. And then the moving of the franchises and the lease and all the nonsense. But what are they going to pull off? You know, and whatโs the environment? Financially to your point, just assume they donโt want to spend any money, theyโre not going to spend any money, theyโre going to run the franchise that way, theyโre not going to make the splash thing and give rutschman a bunch of money or give Henderson a bunch of money. So if theyโre not going to give them money, why are they going to give it to some pitcher? Why are they going to give some pitcher $75 million for three years. I donโt, I donโt know. But they if they want to when they need to do what other teams are doing. Right. And this is an inflection point for the franchise in a lot of ways in a lot of ways for what they are. And theyโve always been effed up, always. And it always when the money starts, and you gotta get out and see dad, or you gotta get in and see John, good decisions are not made. And that is me sitting here. 32 years watching this. Iโm all about alias. Iโd like to know how happy Elias is. If Elias is happy, whereโs the press conference for five year extension for him? Let me know heโs here to 28. Because I need to know that. And he needs to know that. And they need to know what a budget is. And they need to figure this out. And they need to figure out their television network. And then to figure out their debts to the Lerner family, they need to figure out their lease, they canโt do any of that I have people who told me they canโt pick wallpaper over 30 years. So when it comes down to Elias being on the bad phone with with with Fredo and saying, Iโve got a deal and Cece, well, you know, is that 90210? Whereโs that? You know, I mean, Iโm not convinced John knows anything about baseball. So I donโt know what the investment would be in the money would be. But at some point, John boy is going to be the one who has all the purse strings. And Iโve never seen him spend money on anything other than at the Four Seasons at the at the cocktail bar. Theyโre like I donโt I donโt know what John spending issues are. I know the family looks desperate in that itโs getting rid of all this property. John has spoke out of desperation and come see my books, Dan Connolly, you know nothing. Who by the way, Iโve invited for crabcake and hope he comes out and shows me how much he knows. Because I know he knows a lot. But all this is going on. And Iโll talk about all that while you in Canton shack and Iโll talk about what the value of Jordan Westberg is in a trade and how theyโre going to want a pitcher and how Rodriguez is off the market. They canโt have him they canโt have Richmond but yeah, you know, you want Marlins you want to pay him take him off, throw him in. He placed ever feel free you have to pay him because they donโt want to pay guys. So I mean, I donโt think the mountcastle is Mullins. I donโt think anybodyโs really off the table. If they got the right picture, and Elias is mine, but Elias is he came from St. Louis in Houston where they have owners who were logical and they had normal meetings and they had normal runs a business they had leases the hip they had all of that I donโt I know the place is a dysfunction of F opportune I know that I know people that work there. I know itโs I know that people the state of authority trying to get John L. So making decisions and Big Boy grown up decisions. Itโs this is not a normal place. And until I see it function and act normally Iโm never going to go to our public, the listeners out there and say this is normal. Because what you and I sit here and talk about make sense and the fans talk about things that makes sense. I donโt I donโt know really what Johnโs thoughts are about owning the franchise, how little he wants on the books if momโs really trying to backdoor it. What theyโre trying to do with this lease to gift it to the next owner so that he can get a couple of 100 million more on the way out. I mean, it is shrouded in history. But I assure you this. Itโs also shrouded in competency. Historically, historically, cheapness, pettiness and competency. Itโs it. And thatโs Kevin Brown donโt say itโs not current, itโs very current you and me trying to get into the clubhouse in Arlington. Thatโs how current it is. Thatโs how petty they are. So I donโt know how happy Elias and my Dell and all that is, I know it looks like Kumbaya, and 101 wins. But this is the inflection point of Michael is saying, I need a checkbook and I need you to leave the room. And let me do my job. Let me do what I need to do. But the checkbook, man, Iโm worried about the checkbook, bro.
Luke Jones 25:42
Well, you said it. I mean, you took the words right out of my mouth. Itโs an inflection point. And by the way, thatโs a good thing. Right? This is when they started over when they truly started over back in in the fall 2018. But because the thing had been burned to the ground anyway, because the 18 team was so god awful. But this was the the goal was to get to this point in time, right? And they are and you look at it, they had a 31 game improvement gone from 21 when they lost 110 games 31 game improvement in 2022. And then another 18 game improvement this past year, youโre not going to improve by that much once again. I mean, youโre not going to go from 100.
Nestor J. Aparicio 26:21
Can I say something on this with all these awards and stuff? Why isnโt Elias going down the hallway and asking for the sun, the moon, the stars are saying Iโll go run the Yankees, like how do we not know thatโs not going on? Like, to me that has to be going on behind closed doors, because it goes on in every NFL organization in every game and everywhere else. This guy is a freaking genius, right? Like, seriously, right? Like he is the best thing weโve ever seen around here. Maybe we donโt talk about it enough. Maybe we didnโt do a segment 45 minutes. And you know, and laughing him last week after he won. But whatever theyโre paying him itโs not enough. And whatever he asked for John better give it to him. I mean, seriously. I
Luke Jones 27:04
agree. Although itโs an inflection point for him to because the job is different now for him than it was three years ago, four years ago when it was all just he wonโt anymore. Right. Right. Exactly. And thatโs and thatโs not to say they wonโt trap they wonโt continue to draft well, but it is a different animal now. And now itโs a case of youโre no longer rebuilding, you just won 101 games, you let the American League you were the number one seed all of that. And we know how it played out in October. But the point is now you have a playoff caliber, you have potentially a championship caliber roster. Grow, right? And thatโs and to the point that you just made talking about, you know, what payroll and all those questions for me? Where my question lies is okay, you strike a deal for Dylan Cโs and Iโm just throwing his name out there. And look, he didnโt have a great second half and I just, for example, Humor me on this. You acquire Dylan Cโs, youโre okay to pay him what youโre going to pay him but then John, Angela says, well, we canโt go that high. So then you acquire Dylan Cโs but then if you have to trade Anthony Santander and you say okay, well, thatโs going to clear a spot for Heston curse dad, but Anthony Santander hit 60 home runs for them the last two years. Iโm not
Nestor J. Aparicio 28:24
all over again. Right. Um, and
Luke Jones 28:26
heโs not Nelson Cruz because Nelson Cruz I mean, my goodness that he did it for almost a decade after he left the Orioles you know, it was a compliment.
Nestor J. Aparicio 28:37
is somebodyโs gonna have to hit those homeruns Oh, no doubt,
Luke Jones 28:40
no doubt but but thatโs and when I look at their roster right now and look, Iโll by Gunnar Henderson is going to hit another another level this coming year or the next couple years, Iโll buy that because I think heโs so supremely talented, oh, by all the hype, projects and holiday. But if thereโs one thing you could talk about with this 2023 Orioles lineup, it was they didnโt have a ton of homerun pop, you know, you look at where they ranked compared to the rangers and the Astros and some of the other top teams in the AFL. They were a little lacking in that department, which Iโm not saying thatโs the end of the world. But then if youโre going to turn around and trade Anthony some time there who has been one of your most consistent homerun bats over the last few years. You know, so and if youโre only doing that for payroll purposes, then that concerns me that concerns me then in terms of your ability, or lack thereof to max this thing out over the next few years, you know, even before we start getting into, you know, some of their best players getting closer and closer to free agency. So you know that thatโs just, you know, thatโs part of it. And again, there are so many different ways that they can go with their roster and thereโs so much to really, really like even acknowledging dysfunction and questions about ownership, the business side, all those different things. Thereโs still so much to like about this team. But the last thing I want to see is you pull off a trade for a starting pitcher that said, you know whether heโs an ace or number two, number three, somewhere, you know, someone to match up with Bradish and Grayson Rodriguez that you have a top three that you feel really good about. And thatโs what theyโve been talking about John means and some of their other guys. But to do that, then you have to go trade Anthony Santander. You know, thatโs when I look at this thing and say, you know, what is the max payroll going to be? You know, how limited is Michael is going to be to enhance and augment what they already have, which is really, really good. Letโs be clear about that. Weโre not talking about the Orioles needing major surgery this offseason, in terms of roster building. You know, weโre talking about a move here, a move there. And in terms of starting pitching,
Nestor J. Aparicio 30:43
whoโs not What do you mean, in your mind? I mean, we talked so much about mountcastle. We talked so much about Santander. I mean, these were guys we were trying to give away at various points and saying rebuild trade this that. You told my Frasier being gone. He maybe never should have been. But but they getting there, not the pitching. Iโm talking about the position players. Where are you on where they are with Austin Hayes as an example? Yeah, I
Luke Jones 31:11
mean, itโs tough because you have some I mean, in the case of Santander, and the reason why Iโve mentioned him is because you look at what he made this past year, which was $7.4 million arbitration, and this is his last year before hitting free agency. And, you know, Iโll be honest, I wouldnโt be looking to extend Santander, but I also donโt want to just give them away as a salary dump, you know, so, but heโs projected to make, you know, MLB, trade rumors had him at $12.7 million. So, look, weโve talked about Santander as a trade, potential trade for two or three off seasons. Now thatโs nothing new. So weโll see what happens with that, you know, Austin Hayes, as much as you love the Gold Glove caliber defense he played in left field, which is a very challenging left field at Camden Yards with all the territory to cover. Weโve also seen him struggle in the second half the last couple years and you do have Colton cows or you do have Heston couristan. So you know, who, you know. And it might be that you trade cows, or you might trade curse dad, but youโve got to kind of figure that out. Right? Hey, so
Nestor J. Aparicio 32:13
small. My point, you know that my point is, that make money that you feel like, you know, we could live without and to your point, living without Santander. Thatโs why I brought up Nelson Cruz, I will just yeah, the next guy will just do that. No, he wonโt, you know, not that. Not that. But
Luke Jones 32:29
he might. He might, but you donโt know. Right? Itโs the unknown. And letโs be clear Santander until the last couple years was a guy who had all kinds of injury concerns. And, you know, it wasnโt until the last couple years that he actually started walking some I mean, this going into 22, I think he had a career to 90 on base percentage. So itโs a credit to the coaching staff, the player development and him for the work that they put in to make him the player he is but you
Nestor J. Aparicio 32:54
think the stop sign?
Luke Jones 32:55
You know, itโs tough, I donโt want to give them away. Because, again, heโs been so good, but at the same time, is he a guy that Iโm of all the players, we could be talking about? What contract extensions? Is he the guy that Iโm really looking to, to say, Oh, youโre
Nestor J. Aparicio 33:09
gonna have a $64 million payroll next year, because thatโs what you think youโre gonna have. And heโs gonna be 14 million of it, as opposed to seven and a half on a $40 million bag. I have no, you know, like, again, theyโre not transparent about any of this, which is makes them such a poor organization, because they could say, hey, we made more money. I mean, if they really were honest with Dan Connolly, and you and me and weโre fighting with us about our Clubhouse badges through time zones away, like they would say, well, weโre gonna up payroll to 90 million this year. Because on this we have sky boxes and CFG bank bought in and royal farms bought in, we have scraped why spot. We have great sponsors in our local in our community and our bed net. They donโt do anything. Theyโve been there dormant. And all theyโre really doing is fighting behind the scenes to embarrass Westmore further, like literally, thatโs the most important thing they can do is that and I think Elias understands that behind all of this is that and the energy for all that should be okay, John, boy, we just gave you a billion dollars. And we gave Steve Ashati a billion dollars, right? Literally a billion dollars for each of you. And youโre telling me you canโt afford an outfielder? What? Right, you know, so the expectations will be up when we know how much money theyโre actually getting, you know? Sure,
Luke Jones 34:27
sure. No question about it. So, you know, these are this is all part of for Elias. Not talking about John Angeles but for Elias in the front office. You know, these are all thatโs all part of it. And we donโt know right? I mean, again, itโs great to trade for a picture if you can do it. If you can land Dylan sees if you if you can land Corbin burns and not have to give up half your farm system is awesome. But it does take some of the steam out of it if it means you got to trim payroll and dump Santander because you canโt have a payroll above and Iโm just throwing out On a random number $75 million, and I donโt, you know, thatโs just a number out of thin air. But, you know, you look at what are they
Nestor J. Aparicio 35:07
guys, John, number b out of thin air because they have more money than that they really do.
Luke Jones 35:14
Of course. And thatโs the game that owners play in Major League Baseball right? Itโs up for sale. Doesnโt that really sounds very vague.
Nestor J. Aparicio 35:22
That was the old Andy MacPhail line that Mike Flanagan that Iโm so offended by. Iโm so offended about all of that, that I like to bring it up that Andy MacPhail once said that Mike Flanagan Wi Fi and mistake when the lead hamburger. Yeah, yeah, so this is the offseason of that where where and also the Padres implosion is something that Johnโs gonna brag go too far off the rails, the massing data, you know, the Nationals out of it, you know, canโt canโt go there gotta you know, thatโs at the end, weโll wind up saying that March, when you when are watching the team get together and share. So to say they did some things, but they could have done more, because they always could, right. And theyโre competing with the Yankees and the Red Sox and the Dodgers and then, you know, on and on and on. Thatโs the hardest part of all of this is itโs so unfair. Itโs a different conversation than we ever have with football with a salary cap, or itโs as different as saying, How does Maryland compete with Alabama or Ohio State or, you know, itโs, itโs literally that way now that they can pay the players on the up and up. But theyโre always a popper nation here. You know, itโs a poverty franchise. Thatโs Dennisโs line poverty franchise, he uses that all the time. They they really are poverty franchise, he likes to talk more poor. Now theyโre poor mouthing themselves into the governmental deal. But as it relates to baseball, they get measured against these other 30 teams and what their abilities are to do they you know, theyโve talked themselves into being a Third World franchise in regard to finances.
Luke Jones 36:54
Yeah, yeah. And thatโs, thatโs whatโs so frustrating because the baseball side of it, the assets that they have, in their farm system, the players that they have on their major league roster right now, I mean, Nestor all those teams are competing with the Orioles to, they won 101 games last year, you know, that wasnโt, it wasnโt out of that sheer luck, okay, maybe they werenโt a true 101 Win team, but they were at least a 95 Win Win team in terms of their talent level, if you look at run differential and all those different things. So itโs, itโs legitimate, itโs very legitimate, and theyโve got a heck of a chance to win a World Series over these next few years, even if they donโt make an abundance of outside editions. But youโve got to do something, youโve got to augment, youโve got to pick, pick and choose the right players to trade away and bring in the right players that are gonna help fortify your rotation or your bullpen or give you another bat in the lineup, whatever it might be. I mean, they have a phenomenal opportunity here. But everything that you mentioned from the lease on down, yeah, itโs part of it. And you canโt deny that and it is something that where they are right now, understanding that youโve made this extraordinary improvement over the last two years. And now the question is, whatโs next? What are you doing to help yourself get over the hump and, and look, some of thatโs going to be internal improvement. It might be, they might go out and try to acquire, like, letโs say they sign Eduardo Rodriguez, to your point with the max Scherzer thing. Thereโs no guarantee heโs gonna be healthy. And it might be that theyโre back in October. And guess what, Grayson Rodriguez, and Kyle Bradish break through this time, because theyโll have that experience under their belt of what happened last October. So you never really know how thatโs going to play out. They have all these young players, but you still want to maximize your odds, right, you still want to improve. You want to give yourself more outs, you want to improve your depth, you want to have more pitching, you want to have better arms in the back of the bullpen, knowing youโre not going to have Batista this year. And they can do that. But youโve got to have the proper resources and you got to spend use those resources wisely. Whether youโre talking about trade, whether youโre talking about signing players, you know, you still need to make good signings, right it signing players is one thing, you want to make smart signings. And, you know, thatโs Mike Elias at this point in time in this at this stage of the rebuild now being over, you know, thatโs where the juryโs still out on him in terms of being able to make those kinds of moves. You know, we saw at the trade deadline, the two deals he made, didnโt work out so well. You know, they and he own that, you know, he flat out said it didnโt work out and thatโs on me, so and thatโs fine. No oneโs gonna bat 1000 Eric dโacosta Doesnโt bat 1000 Ozzie Newsome didnโt bat 1000. But they are at a point now where you do want to augment you do want to be able to make some moves, trade away. Some, you know a subset of your prospects that maybe arenโt your best prospects that are still very valuable prospects to bring in a pitcher or whatever else you identify as a need. So Thereโs lots of opportunities. And there are a lot of a lot of ways to do this. And in doing that, Nestor, it doesnโt mean their payroll has to go up to $150 million in one offseason. It wouldnโt. But you know, Iโm not, Iโm not even saying that thatโs whatโs required. But you do have it at some point in time, you need to give Elias the flexibility financially, for him to be able to be bold, and make a land a bigger fish, so to speak, doesnโt mean it has to be a $250 million contract. But you look at what they gave Jordan Lyles, what they gave Kyle Gibson this past year, itโs got, you know, heโs got to be able to aim higher than that. And, you know, if they canโt do that, if he doesnโt, I donโt want to say canโt, thatโs the wrong word. If heโs not permitted to do that, then shame on them. Because boy, theyโre really wasting something that really looks like it has a heck of a chance to be special here over the next five, six years. But you canโt just rely on your prospects, you canโt just rely on, you know, your minor league system and that, you know, at some point in time, you are gonna have to bring in some outside additions who can really help you in whatever way it is, but specifically looking at it, another top half of the rotation guy, and like I said, I want to see some tweaking of that bullpen. I think you need at least need to add at least one legitimate high leverage arm at the back of that bullpen and probably to you know, Luke, I
Nestor J. Aparicio 41:23
wrote a dear John Liu letter five years ago asking if they were Rockies or bull winkels in regard to ownership, referring the rocky works, who was the son of the Blackhawks owner, who was such a creep, and things went better and they had some creepy stuff that happened, you can Google all that. But they did win Stanley Cups, they became instantly competitive, they would be loved in the city above the bears above the bulls above the White Sox not above the Cubs because the Cubs have the Cubs but they fix things. And I held out hope that John Angeloโs and Lou angelos, were better humans than their father, I there has been zero evidence of that zero evidence of that. I learned that firsthand in Arlington, so much so that I have to laugh. 17 years after I did the walk out now going into 18 years, having gone the walkout. So I would just say this, this is the time where we all wish it werenโt dysfunctional. But I have every piece of evidence in regard to have theyโve negotiated the deal with the state. Kevin Brown, my own personal dealings, how things have been handled with business with them, that itโs not better, and I wish it were better. And this is a time for it to at least look better, maybe feel better. But I think the expectation levels of the fans who are vested the people that are all in that weโre on this journey this year. I think the fan base is so battered that and they expected the bar is so low for what they could or should or might do, as opposed to what normal would do that if they had a real owner who had pockets who wasnโt a creeper a jerk. And they, they they ran the organization, normally, they would make normal offseason decisions. And we would see Henderson have a real deal. Thatโs the state of baseball at this point would be to get that done. But thereโs so much in flux with the old manโs health, with your television network with a lease. And this is coming. Thereโs no bad time to win 100 games, thereโs no bad time to have a cupboard full of young stars, thereโs no bad time to have the Manager of the Year and Executive of the Year and the Rookie of the Year and all that. But and Iโm not a Debbie Downer about any of this. Iโm a Iโm an absolute realist and a pragmatist and a historian. And, and, and I know a lot about all of this. They could do so much more, they have so much wealth. They havenโt theyโre not going to this would be the worst time in the world for them to look rich. You know, I mean, theyโre theyโre theyโre theyโre threatening a divorce with the state of Maryland and threatening the maitre d Commissioner not to talk to the governor and the governor canโt talk to the commissioner. And the kids sort of running the team in some sort of weird receivership with the old man check down and when he dies, who knows whoโs running the team, like this is a awkward time for them to be this loaded. And with this many decisions to be made and what the this really, really small window theyโre going to have, until these great players get really expensive or cranky, or like Adam Jones scratched their head said what the hell is going on here? Because it doesnโt, it took buckshot Walterโs wife, you know, a few years after she left to figure out what the hell was going on here. And sheโs retweeting me this summer. Kevin Brown knows whatโs going on. And I spent time up there amongst the bread highlanders in the bedroom all of the tortured masses who work under the thumb of John Angelos and tell him heโs taller. And he really did hit that triple. And they saw it, they have video of it HD in it, and it was off, it was off Palmer. So I just, I want to temper my own soul and your soul as the safe you come back to me on February 15. And they broken for for spring training, and theyโve acted as a normal organization. And theyโve done all check off of all things, including letting everybody in on weโre alized and hide our, from a snug standpoint, in regard to the contract. And their star players, quite frankly, that thereโs a vision, the vision that he threatened Dan Connolly about you know, the opening of the books and all of that. And right now, Iโm gonna go up against this again, too, they donโt have a lease, they canโt even put their tickets on sale. They donโt have a building the plan or an agreement to play in it. Itโs
Luke Jones 45:59
I mean, Iโm gonna throw one name out there that if if this were all normal, and everything that you just laid out wasnโt an issue or wasnโt at least a concern or at least a perceived concern. Youโd go land Blake Snell and free agency left handed starter who was arguably the best pitcher in baseball over the final like four months of 2023 31 years old, left handed, pitching at Camden Yards now not to Camden Yards at all, but the big left field. I mean, youโd go sign Blakeโs now and guess what, even signing him to whatever the market will be for him. And, you know, weโll revisit that whenever he signs with, you know, whichever team is going to land him. Even making that signing their payroll would still be way low compared to most baseball. So, absolutely.
Nestor J. Aparicio 46:46
Natural weekend conversation with how effed up then seriously, because theyโre not willing to just say no, but teams are willing it but Iโm just saying,
Luke Jones 46:53
right. But thatโs my thatโs my whole point. You know, Iโm alright. And it goes back to what you said, the lowering the, you know, the lowering of expectations that, you know, we didnโt even talk about Blakeโs. Now weโre not even talking. I mean, of course, weโre not talking about Otani and canโt pitch this coming year anyway. But, you know, Blake Snell, who was the healthy, the best, healthy pitcher on the market, right, you know, this offseason? And weโre not even talking about that when he would be perfect for the Orioles. I mean, he really would be just baseball, right? If you were serious about winning financial side of baseball right now. And again, signing him would not take you up to a $200 million payroll far from it, because thatโs where they are either. So they are so cost effective right now. And so cost control, you know, club control, cost control, with all these great young players that they havenโt. By the way, thatโs a good thing. Thatโs not a bad thing. Thatโs a great thing. But youโd like to take advantage of that. And thatโs when you would be able to go out and sign up Blake Snell, you know, when youโre talking about, like, where the Astros were six years ago, you know, and they had all these great young players. And then yeah, they went out and got Justin Verlander at the deadline, and they want it all down, you know. So you want to see the Orioles be able to make that move. And with all of those things you laid out there, and all of the history and ownership and lease and all that,
Nestor J. Aparicio 48:16
and no sign that itโs any better right now, you know what I mean? Like, that was where I was with the rocky Bolga thing to say, Man, once we get to this point, show me your competence. They have not I know coming up and itโs in their competence. Baseball
Luke Jones 48:28
operations is very competent, but the business side and that still is going to clash at some point time. And I can still recall Nestor, I was talking to a nother member of the media, this was like, This was probably a month before the pandemic started, you know, and the world shut down. And the conversation we had was no thing as good as things are, you know, a trending from a farm system standpoint, development, all those different things, the young players that they have, the sentiment was, theyโre going to get to a point where theyโre going to be ready, you know, that and look, they they won 101 games this year, theyโre more than ready, theyโre, you know, theyโre past that point. But theyโre going to get to a point where itโs going to be time to augment itโs going to be time to go spend whether youโre talking about free agents, whether itโs trades, whether itโs resigning your own, and the fear at that point was the business side is going to ruin that or at least interfere with that would probably be the best way to say it. But and here we are, and until we see otherwise, itโs tough not to be skeptical in terms of ownership being willing to do what it takes to really fortify and augment this thing and not just put me in a position where hey, they were they were awesome last year, you know, and they got these young players but but to be able to say weโve got all these young players and we just added a legitimate number one or number two starter to go with Brad and she was fourth and Cy Young and to go with Grayson Rodriguez, who was looked like a stud the second half of last year. You get some like that had his fan base would be really jacked up. Is that going to happen? Well, Iโll believe it when I see it. And to your point, the lease beginning with that looming over everything inevitably is going to interfere with the baseball side at some point in time here unless we see a resolution that looks satisfactory, but again until that happens hard to hold your breath on it.
Nestor J. Aparicio 50:25
Next time you and I talk baseball, Iโm going to show you my biggest offseason acquisition which was a near mint condition 1962 Luis Aparicio with the the panel behind it. I you know, we signed all these cards, and I took them down to the Babe Ruth Museum and like, Iโve been on the lookout for the ones that are a little more beaten up. So like, I gotta improve my 57 a little bit. My 56 is in pretty good shape. And when I saw that the mint condition was sold for $314 in the overnight from 56. Iโm like, not so much on that. But But I am back in acquisition mode for Houston Oilers and Luis Aparicio stuff now that Iโve almost completed my Pacific a belt buckle collection. So Iโm looking for baseball acquisitions. I acquire Geddy Leeโs book on Friday, like thereโs some baseball in there. So, you know, Rick Emmons coming on the show this month, so I got some rock and roll stories to tell. And I might even get getting on to talk some baseball. So itโs been fun talking. Basically, we talk more baseball. Now. I mean, now that weโre under one games, like, Can we do some baseball talk around here? Are we allowed to be critical?
Luke Jones 51:23
Yeah, look, I donโt want to just be critical. I want to I want to be excited about the offseason. I mean, they want 101 games. And theyโre not really losing guys of consequence, unless they trade them away, because youโre trying to trim payroll or whatever. So thereโs a lot to
Nestor J. Aparicio 51:40
win 102 games, I need them to win the World Series.
Luke Jones 51:42
And thatโs the you just said it. And thatโs where again, theyโre at this point, theyโre at the point where you say theyโre a playoff, you know, whether they win 101 again or not. Theyโre a playoff caliber club, especially with three wildcards. What can they do to put themselves in better position that when they return, if and when they are back there playing in October, that they improve their chances? A lot of its luck, right. I mean, a lot of itโs random, you know, the Arizona Diamondbacks are a great example of that. But what can you do on the pitching side specifically to fortify your chances there and weโre gonna see how it plays out here over the next couple months.
Nestor J. Aparicio 52:19
You find Luke at Baltimore, Luke, you could probably find them out in Owings Mills as well as the Ravens go la by and itโs a weird week and weโre all gonna have turkey and feel fat sit around and watch football for four days this week. So until we get to play on Sunday night, and then weโll sit around and do it more and at some point, the Orioles are gonna have to get on it, not sit on it because itโs Thanksgiving and they were pretty good last year. So we got an eye on that. I have an eye on the Maryland stadium authority Tom Kelso came on this week I would highly encourage you to get educated on where your tax dollars are going and what shenanigans the Angeloโs family is pulling thatโs going to benefit the Ashanti family and what it means ultimately, for the price of your tickets, the downtown experience, the quality the teams, and really the quality of the lifestyle here in the land of pleasant living. I am Nestor we are wn st am 1570, Towson Baltimore. My baseball last name serving me well here in the offseason weโre Baltimore positive stay with us.