Longtime NFL writer and author Clark Judge gives a clinic on Hall of Fame voting and discusses Lamar and King Henry running Ravens to a Super Bowl in New Orleans next month. Also a primer here on Terrell Suggs, Marshal Yanda and Steve Smith Sr. bids for Canton immortality.
Nestor Aparicio and Clark Judge discuss the upcoming Ravens vs. Steelers game, with Judge predicting a Ravens win by more than 10 points due to Pittsburgh’s decline and Baltimore’s accelerating pace. They also delve into Hall of Fame voting, with Judge emphasizing the importance of history and the challenges of defining a first-ballot Hall of Famer. Judge highlights the significance of players like Lamar Jackson, Derrick Henry, and Terrell Suggs, noting their potential to lead the Ravens to the Super Bowl. They also touch on the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame’s politics and the impact of Todd Rungren’s decision to boycott induction ceremonies.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Hall of Fame voting, Lamar Jackson, Derrick Henry, Ravens Super Bowl, Pittsburgh rivalry, NFL history, Clark Judge, Terrell Suggs, Steve Smith, NFL statistics, Baltimore Colts, Pro Football Hall, Todd Rungren, Rock and Roll Hall, Janet Jackson
SPEAKERS
Clark Judge, Nestor Aparicio
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Nestor Aparicio 00:02
Welcome home. We are W, N, S T, am 1570 Towson, Baltimore. We are Baltimore. Positive. We’re getting the Maryland crab cake tour back out on the road when the snows clear, we’re into a very special time. It is a Festivus, but the rest of us here, we’ll get the Maryland crab cake tour. I will not have Raven scratch offs. This last one I have, I’m gonna have the magic eight ball. We’ll look into the magic eight ball here momentarily and find out whether the raves could be winning the World Series, or, excuse me, the Super Bowl as well, as maybe even if Terrell Suggs is going to the Hall of Fame in a couple of weeks. This is the time of year when we play these huge games, Pittsburgh versus Baltimore, where I don’t bother my sort of legendary writer friends who vote for Hall of Fame stuff too much, only like when the Baltimore Colts and the San Diego Chargers get together. Do i bother friends of mine, like Clark judge who’s going to hold up his Johnny Unitas? What is that? Is that That’s your statue, or is that like a flat what is that? It’s a
Clark Judge 01:00
photograph that’s made into it. And then I’ve got this thing I used to have in my wall as a kid, right?
Nestor Aparicio 01:10
I’m so nostalgic. I’m wearing my this is my Earl Campbell. I got this on the internet. It’s my throwback. You know, I show it off like it. I like this in this it’s warm because it’s cold out right now. The NFL gives, doesn’t it? Clark, don’t we? We love this league, even though it is given and taken from us at various points on the wall. Tom Maddie, holy cow. Have you read the book yet? I have boy. Lee, okay. Joe wrote. Joel poilee comes on. He’s down in Tampa. He I’ve got it. I’ve got the book. Yeah. I mean, what a wonderful story. So how are you? How is life outside of New Haven, Connecticut, off of the NFL beat after a lifetime, 40 years back? If you’re married into the league, you’ve done it all. Um, you covered the San Diego supercharges. I picked this up on the internet. Is that, is there anything better than that belt buckle 1971 o’clock. So I’ve been collecting weird NFL stuff because I don’t spend money on my PSLs or tickets or flying off the buffalo next week. This is a big game, right? And nobody thinks the Steelers can win, right?
Clark Judge 02:13
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Yeah, right, right. That’s a big game just because of Baltimore, Pittsburgh. When Baltimore is Pittsburgh, I don’t care what the records are, I just look at him and go, it’s going to be a great game no matter what. Now the ravens are going in different direction. The Steelers, the Steelers are descending. The Rave Raiders are ravens are accelerating. And that’s why I like the Ravens in this game. I think Lamar Jackson has got some notions to dispel. Let’s say him. He’s to inform the playoffs. People wonder about him in big games. It’s a big game. I mean, because it’s Baltimore, Pittsburgh, if a regular season game, it’s a big game. It’s Baltimore, Pittsburgh, and, you know, the best rivalry out there. So I look at it because I’m going to watch it, not because I think the decision or issues in doubt, because I don’t. I think the Ravens will win. I think they’ll win by more than 10 points, but I just love to watch the ravens and Steelers play, because it’s always a good game, a competitive game. But I think Baltimore has just got too many weapons and and as I said, Pittsburgh’s descending. So is the quarterback, Russell Wilson. Every year. It seems like Nestor that Russell Wilson does this every year. In fact, I was trying to look it up and find out what was going on. Each year he starts fasting. He ends up crawling to the finish line. He took he has taken so many hits over his career, I think that probably has something to do with it, but they’re running on empty right now. I’d be shocked if they were able to win this game. I like Baltimore, but I just want to watch it, because it’s Baltimore. Piss go watch them every time they play.
Nestor Aparicio 03:35
For those of you watching, I am wearing a legendary jersey. Clark judge decides who’s legends and who’s not. If you don’t know who Clark is, you can look him up on the internet. He literally is a judge and jury when it comes to the Pro Football Hall of Fame. I grew up reading you. You were worshiped by all the editors on our sports section by the time you’re going out in San Diego and ran around with Stan Humphries and Bobby Ross and a whole bunch of others, but as well as Steve Young and covering the 40, so you’ve done all of that, bring folks up to speed, because I want to go soup the nuts, because you and I always meander into Bert Jones. I’ve already COVID like we got, I got business. I got to get not even Todd rungren, like we got things. We got to get to First things first. People come to me every day and say, he’s a Hall of Famer. She’s a Hall of Famer. They’re a Hall of Famer. Put this bird that we we’re going to put Tracy Chapman in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame before he puts sticks in. What’s wrong with you people so but you’re legitimate. And when I talk about Hall of Fames, whether it was the late great Phil Jackman, who we’ve buried since the last time I’ve spoken with you, who used to vote, yeah, we lost Phil. We lost Phil back in in the fall, we lost his wife, Tina. More recently than that, in the last 90 days, it’s been a, it’s been a it’s been a bloodletting here for some of my parents, like, literally, don’t make me cry. So Jackman, when I was a boy, we were good out of those caps games. Man, he had. The he had been in the baseball writers forever, or a weaver, all of that. And he and I had real conversations when I’m 1617, years old, not just with him, with Steadman, with people who did this. It was always taken seriously. You know how badly when I was a younger guy, I wanted to be the Baltimore representative. I I pity you guys that have done this over the course time, even though it’s a hell of a charge give everybody out there the elevator speech on not Suggs yonda. Steve Smith, we’ll get to that in a minute. But how long you’ve been doing this and what this entails in order for you to decree whether you’re going to vote for Suggs yonda or or? Steve Smith,
Clark Judge 05:38
yeah, I’ve been doing it. This my 15th year of doing it, but certainly have a history with the NFL, just because I’ve been covering it over 40 years, but I’ve been watching it a lot longer than that. Been watching since I was a kid. I watched unite us play. He was the guy that I first watched. I watched the 58 championship game on black and white TV. I was a kid then, but I fell in love with the Colts. Then, it was easy to fall in love with the Colts, but I’ve been doing it 15 years. I’ve got someone people on there have been doing it longer. They’re allies of mine. We all feel very strongly about history being respected and being recognized. And there’s somewhat of a recency bias going on now, just because we have some younger voters who bigger. Burt Jones. Never heard of him. Who is he? You know, unite us. I heard he was great. Look at his passer rating. I don’t know, Darren Woodson, like, put him in, yeah, yeah, and so. But there’s some people like that, and so and so, you feel as if you pretty you’ve got a pretty good feel of it, especially since I left mainstream media and started working on my own with some others on websites like the Pro Football talk, talks about some things, issues going on, who’s going to Hall of Famer? And I said, Well, I’ll tell you what we can tell you, because we have people who are in that room. And we did a website called The talk of fame network, and you and I have talked about that before, because you’ve had Rick Austin, I think I’m on board. Is probably on the show. They’re voters, and they’ve been on there a long time. So they, they joined with me, and then we broke it up because someone had a real personal setback in his life and and so I started again with talk of fame too, with Ira Kaufman, who’s also a Hall of Fame vote. He’s been doing it a long time. And these are
Nestor Aparicio 07:10
people that I respected, all of them, who I would say, if you vote for him, I vote for you know, like, leave me. Could I feel like I’m qua I saw Joe Namath and Burt Jones playing a 70. I’m like all of that. I’ve covered 27 Super Bowls. I’m qualified, but it’s tough work. How many are there? 50 of you now, like they’re
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Clark Judge 07:32
50, but I think it’s down to 49 only because two left. I know the ones. We placed him and I asked somebody last night, we 50? Are we 49 said, 49 I said, I haven’t seen anything to say that we’re anything more than anything less than 50. So 50 or 49 one of the two, but there are a lot in there and and when I mentioned Rick awesome, for instance, he’s got has been there, I think close to 30 years. And those are people who really respect history. And that’s what I like about that board. And I like it more than what baseball is doing, even though I’m not a baseball writer who I love. In fact, it’s baseball, my favorite sport. But even though I’m not involved in that process, because we’re all together, and we can see each other, and we can look at each other and say, I think this. I think that really is a debate. There’s a room to debate, and there’s debate. And so Baseball Hall
Nestor Aparicio 08:12
of Fames that is an online debate. That’s right, and it could be secret for forever, right?
Clark Judge 08:17
That’s correct. And so we look at each other and we now, we’re doing it online, you know, virtually for the I think that’s the fourth or fifth straight year,
Nestor Aparicio 08:25
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dude, I used to run into you and Peter King and gross y’all running out at the Marriott to get, oh, sure, dude, the stress level that I saw from all of you, because I would do radio row, and you would come by and I’d say, you’re, you’re putting John Ogden in, right? You know, like we and, and you would, then you go to the next table, you’re putting Orlando pace in, right. Then you go to the next table, you’re putting Tony Boselli in, right. Like there, the Art Monk thing got tight. There’s been a couple of cases that were just ugly. Harry
Clark Judge 08:53
Carson, Harry Carson, the same thing, uh. Paul Taggart, same art, modell, art, don’t get me started. Yeah. So in any case, we always met the day before the Super Bowl, as you know, on that Saturday, and was a long, involved process, COVID that way anymore. No. COVID changed everything. COVID changed everything. So we did it. We met virtually. And then last year we were going to meet in person, because Jim Porter, who’s the president the Hall of Fame, thinks very strongly. There are all sorts of advantages to meeting personally. So do I? I think it’s great. And as it turns out, like the day before, there was a big snowfall on the East Coast, we weren’t going to meet in Atlanta. People couldn’t make their reservations. Other people saying, I can’t get there. And he said, forget it’s off. So this year, I said we meet in Atlanta. He said, No, and we’re not. We’re going to go back to virtual just because last year was difficult with the weather just, we just don’t know whether we can do this or not, so we’re going to do it virtually. So going to meet virtually sometime in this month, middle this month. I know the date I’m not supposed to tell, right? So, but anyway, we do that online, and it’s 49 or 50 guys there, and each each candidate has someone who, who presents him. And then afterwards you have. Discussion, so it’s pro and con and and then we’d vote afterwards. I it would take too long to go into all the machinations, but there are people in that room that you will know who respect the history of the game and know it. And hopefully I’m one of those guys, just because I’ve been around long now, some people say you’re dinosaurs like Gosling or just me Howard, as you mentioned that ball, sir. But people been around for a long time, but they know the lay of the land, and they know that you kind of Nestor it. I would ask you, if you looked at a baseball player, I would say to you, tell me if this guy can this guy play or not. You could probably tell me you don’t need to see stats. And I feel that’s the way we are. You look at a guy like bur Jones, you go, I don’t need to see what stats are. United. That’s
Nestor Aparicio 10:38
just where, like Marshall yonda against, it. You don’t need to know Steve Smith against Reggie Wayne and and then Terrell Suggs, who here, here he’s first barely used for I said, I don’t know. I went through the list, and honestly, I don’t like Terrell Suggs. I never liked Terrell Suggs. Terrell Suggs did some things personally to me that I found offensive on a regular basis, but on a personal basis. And Kevin Byrne, everybody knows this, like, you know the bleach incident, that he had all of these things. And when I bring those up to voters, are like, no, no, no, it’s on the field. Okay? On the field. I look through it. I would put him in a hall of fame over I looked at these 15 names. I’m wondering, Is Steve Smith have a chance. I think yonk is a Hall of Famer, but I don’t think he’s first ballot in your mind or in other minds. Where is your mind frame on these three players? You’re the first one I’ve asked about in this because people are asking me about it. It’s been top of their mind or the last two weeks.
Clark Judge 11:38
Well, the problem you’ve got is, what you just mentioned, first ballot, Hall of Famer. Can you define a first ballot Hall of Famer? How do you define it? If you do, and I thought Ron Borges had the right description. First ballot Hall of Famer is a guy you stand up and say his name and sit down. Joe Montana. Jerry Rice, sit down. Jim Brown, sit down. John Unitas, what we need? We need a discussion here. You saw him play let’s move on. Let’s move and we’ve done that. I’m trying to think the last guy was probably Peyton Manning, stood up. Peyton Manning, sit down. His brother
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Nestor Aparicio 12:07
won’t be that easy. Sorry, his brother, it won’t be that easy.
Clark Judge 12:11
His brother is going to be the longest, most contentious conversation we’ve had in years, probably since tag me. But there you go. This going in, because this is going to be, it’s going to be emotional, it’s going to be confrontational, and at some point they’re going to say, Enough, we can’t do this. I mean, these these meetings, by the way. And so we’re putting in five mod maybe we’ve changed the voting processes. Maybe we’re putting in, hopefully five modern era guys, right? And then we’ve got five seniors, contributor and coach. We have one coach, one contributor, and three seniors on the past we we vote on all five of them. They’ve changed the rules this year. Vote on you. Three of the five are going in. Hopefully three of the five, it’s but so what? All five are not but we vote on those. So at the maximum, you could have what, eight. You could have eight guys, right? You could have eight guys, three and five. And so do the math, that’s five. Yeah, that’s eight. So, so you could have eight guys, but you could have as few as, I think it’s as few as four. And that’s, again, don’t, let’s not get into all this, but, but the thing that that’s that’s interesting here is that when you talk about first ballot, it should be someone who just stands up and gets your attention. So who would you say in this group does that? And there’s really not anyone. I think maybe Antonio Gates. I mean, I did cover him. He has more touchdowns than anyone there. I think 160 minutes he was in. My you put him in, but would you stand up and say Antonio Gates and sit down? No. I mean, he was up last year. He was not a first ballot guy. So what defines a first ballot candidate? And as I said, if you go by that, that definition of bronze, you know, it’s somebody stamp and say his name, then you can’t really do that with
Nestor Aparicio 13:56
it. That makes us more contentious, because there’s no rubber stamp. No, no. So if you say
Clark Judge 14:00
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Steve Smith, I want to hear more about Steve Smith. Terrell, I want to hear more Marcia yonda. I mean, bet some people in there had know very little about him. So tell me about offensive linemen. A little bit tough? Are they a little bit tough? Because there’s not any sort of quantitative mark that you cannot like. You know, most sacks, yards per carry, that touchdown pass. It’s a little bit more difficult. So in an answer to your question, all three of them, yeah, they’re Hall of Fame worthy. Steve Smith is the third wide receiver. Well, we’ve got Tori Holt and Reggie Wayne, who’ve been waiting there, I think at least four years, maybe five, and Holt was a top 10 guy last year. The first five go in, so the next five should be in the on deck circle, right? They’re standing in line. It’s like you’re waiting in line at a theater in downtown Baltimore. So you’re waiting in line. First Five going the next five should go in right, unless someone can jump the queue. Who jumps the queue this year? Does? Steve Smith, and I’d say No, he doesn’t. Is it? Marcia ganda, no, there’s somebody ahead of him. Willie Anderson, an offensive tackle for the beggals top 10 guy. Last year. He’s been waiting years. By the way, Marvin
Nestor Aparicio 15:02
Lewis said to me when he came over here 20 years ago, you know, like, that’s a Hall of Famer, and we’re still waiting, right? I pointed that out because I thought Willie Anderson was a Hall of Famer when he came here at the end of his career. Like, I’ve just like, he’s a Hall of Famer. He’s not Hall of Famer yet, and he’s right tackle used 20 years ago. You know, he’s
Clark Judge 15:21
the right tackle. To the best of my knowledge, the last right tackle we put him was Jackie Slater, and I think that was something like 2002 we’re putting left tackles, left tackles, left tackles, right but Willie Anderson was a great right tackle. He’ll get in Nestor, and I think he should get in this year, I think. But then you go, Terrell Suggs, okay, he’s got all the numbers. But you go, Jared Allen’s in the line. He was also a top 10 guy who’s been waiting five years. And he was a two time Top 10 guy. He’s ready to go in. So we’re going to put in two pass rushers, not unless you have somebody who is a slam dunk, you know, you get Deacon Jones in it, Bruce Smith. So I would say all three of those guys, in my mind, they’re going to have to wait at least a year. There’s no, there’s nothing wrong with that. You know, it’s like someone says that you’ve heard this a long time. What do you call the guy who graduated last in his med school? Call him a doctor, right? I mean, it doesn’t make difference with your first ballot, last ballot, you’re in you’re Hall of Famer. So I would say I’m glad to see Smith in there. Honestly, I know this doesn’t go over right, right with your audience. I’m a big Heinz Ward fan, and Heinz Ward should be a finalist. Any kinds Ward should be in the Hall of Fame. He hasn’t. He’s been a nine time semi finalist. What’s wrong? Behind I said
Nestor Aparicio 16:28
that this morning because it’s Pittsburgh week. I’ll say that to Charlie batch too. Heinz word. He’s not. He’s off the ballot. Like, literally, right?
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Clark Judge 16:35
Don’t ask me, finalists insane. It’s right, but, but so not like
Nestor Aparicio 16:41
Reggie Wayne and I think Tory Holt’s a Hall of Famer, but give me Heinz ward over those guys, you know, like to me, but behind
Clark Judge 16:49
I’m with you. I’m with you. And also those were two number two receivers. They weren’t them. You had Marvin Harrison’s gone in Reggie Wayne playing with Marvin Harrison, then Reggie Wayne was on his own. But they’re two number two receivers, you know? And then you’ve got Tory Holt was playing with the greatest show on turf. Well, we’ve already put in Isaac Bruce. How many guys we’re going to put in there? If you put him in Nestor, if you put him in, I do think he’s going to go in. He was that top 10 guy last year too. And it looks like now we’re just going to get a wide receiver every year, right? Larry Fitzgerald comes up next year. Larry Fitzgerald’s a guy who will jump the queue. He will jump the queue. So you get all these wide receivers, and you say, Wait a second, you put Tory Holt in. He would be the fifth, fifth starter on that St Louis Rams, greatest show on turf, team to be enshrined the fifth. Now, I covered the San Francisco 40 Niners. Tell me how many starters on the 1980s 40 Niners that won four Super Bowls. How many of them are in the Pro Football Hall of Fame? Offensively, offensively, because, was because with St Louis, it’s five on offense, two, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, except Jerry wasn’t there for two of those four. So you can tell me, Joe Montana absolutely carried that offense, but Roger Craig’s not in what we’re going to put Tory Holt, and I, I I have an issue with that, because if you’re putting five guys in there, they must be the greatest show on terrific. If they weren’t, they won one Super Bowl, so they must not have been the greatest. And so I sort of end up an issue with that. And I know what the pushback is, you can’t penalize the player. He put up all these numbers. Well, I understand that. But, you know, I look at and say, What? What did they do it? I look at impact. They went to two Super Bowls and they won one. Okay, 49 went to four. They won four in the night in the 80s, and then they won the fifth in the in the 90s. So anyway, Mark
Nestor Aparicio 18:33
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judges, here he is a pro football hall of fame voter and a true historian who is ready to argue anything NFL with true accuracy. Let’s start with this for the game this week the Pittsburgh because I’m done with the Hall of Fame thing, even though I’m wearing and Earl Campbell Jersey here for me with this rivalry and where the game is. And I want to pat myself on the back, because I when I’m right, I like to do this the last two years at the trading deadline, Luke and I fought on the air, and I even found some tweets and statuses of, if they could get Derrick, Henry, they would be unstoppable. I have literally quotes from a year and a half ago. I don’t know if they’re going to be unstoppable this week, next week, buffalo, Kansas City, where the road is, and they’re awful losses to the browns and the Raiders that have been their tax. You know, Mike Tomlin said, their tax to pay their their toll is they have to come to Baltimore this week the Ravens tall is they’re gonna go to Buffalo in Kansas City and do this. They’re built to do it for the first time, and with this running game. And here’s the thing I want to say to you, and if art were here, he kicked me right now, and he would kick you too for not getting him in. Um, but he but listen to me if art modell came back right now and I had Five minutes with art, or even with David, right, whom I loved, right? Like, just love those men. If I had five minutes on the phone first, let me get David modell’s favorite pizza at MAMA Santas in Cleveland. But. But I would say the Ravens have a running back and is only comparable. And I’m saying this to Hall of Fame voter wearing an Earl Campbell jersey, is Jim Brown. The only comparable to Derrick Henry is Jim Brown. I haven’t not Eric Dickerson, the way he runs, the size of him, the lacrosse player at Syracuse and M at this point in his career. It’s not Adrian Peterson, it’s not name anybody else. You tell him, am I wrong? Clark, because I’ve been saying this for two years. He’s now wearing a war an oiler Jersey once or twice last year too. He’s which is a travesty. Um, he’s on a different place, in a different space, and if they’re going to win these games, yeah, Lamar is going to be great, and there’s going to be this and that they’re going to kick field goals, and the defense is going to there’s going to be moments if they’re going to win a Super Bowl. But to me, this is going to be about them having Derrick Henry, and if they don’t have a next year, they’re a different team if they get off the bus without him, because I’ve seen it that way. Yeah,
Clark Judge 21:02
yeah, I agree with you. Nestor, and to a certain extent. I mean, I’m not sure about that. You know, the only one outside of him is Jim Brown. I mean, Eric Dickerson, to me, is somewhat of the same kind of runner, upright and could accelerate. Earl Campbell, strong between the tackles, but could accelerate same thing. Bo Jackson, you know, if you played Eric
Nestor Aparicio 21:19
Dickerson didn’t really run you over, though, no, no, but, yeah, right,
Clark Judge 21:22
but, but, yeah, anyway. But yeah, is Derek Henry a great there’s another first ballot Hall of Famer, you know? Well,
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Nestor Aparicio 21:29
who’s this comparable? Yeah, yeah, you just put him in a hall of fame, and they might lose Saturday night in the snow. But to me, this is his chance, yeah, to shine. You know, this is his best chance to get the brass ring, literally, yeah, and
Clark Judge 21:42
absolutely, but it’s the Ravens best chance too. Why? Why did they not go to the Super Bowl last year? For whatever reason they decided they’re going to be a passing team against Kansas. Anyone they could have run him to death. I didn’t, never understood that. And so now you’ve got the opportunity to run opponents into submission, but you can throw the ball too, because you’ve got a quarterback who can run, who can throw, but you don’t need to prove to everyone that he’s going to be a pocket quarterback in the championship game. No, you’ve got a guy now who can run him to death and beat them down and wear them down. Kansas City last year was vulnerable to the run, and so he tried to be with the past. Made no sense. I never understood that strategy. It costs you now you’ve solved what could be the missing link? You’ve got one of the best quarterback running backs of all time, one of the best quarterbacks too, but one of the running best running backs of all time, and you can beat them with a run or the pass. Now, if you want to decide to beat them with a pass again, guess what you’re probably going to lose. I mean, I just you need. You need to do what, what is suits you best, and what suits you best is to be a balanced team. They can hammer people. Jackson can beat you outside the tackles, and he can beat you with his arm. But if you’re going to say no, we’re going to keep him in the pocket and try to be Kansas City that way, no, it’s not going to work. So I look at Baltimore now as i When, when I cover the 40 Niners, the thing that they did was, if they didn’t get to the Super Bowl, they looked at what cost them, and then they identified that, and they Baltimore did the same thing. What cost you in the AFC Championship game? Yeah, that fumbled the goal line, okay, but you didn’t run them into submission. Let’s get it back. You got the best back out there. Now you can do that. That’s why I think they’re the most dangerous team to beat Kansas City. I think they can beat them. I think they do. I mean, listen, came within a what Isaiah likely to print or whatever of over the line in the season opener to go into overtime that they’ve got the weapons they’ve got now, just use them, and you’ve got the guy to do it. I agree with that’s why I think is you and I talked earlier in the year, I think we’re talking about Lamar versus Derek, Henry MVP, and I said, I’m split on that only because we have two MVPs on the team. How can you have one league? MVP got two who are invaluable. You’ve got two invaluable players on that team. And to me, Henry is almost as important as Lamar, only because of what he’s able to do with teams that can’t defend the run. And I know the quarterbacks the most important position. He touches the ball every play, but Derrick Henry changes everything. You can’t suddenly go, we’re going to rush four guys and keep dropped everyone else into coverage. You could do that against Brady. Sometimes they run three at them, sometimes four. But remember when Rex ran three at him? You can’t do that against these guys, because Derek Henry will get going. And once he gets past that first line, he’s on unblockable and tackle whatever. I mean, you can’t get him because he’s accelerating. So he’s what they didn’t have. And you were right when you said, Get him, because you get him, you got a ticket to New Orleans. And I, I think, I think they can do it this year. And I’m not looking at Saturday, I’m looking at the long haul, you know to beat buffalo, that’ll be tough. You’re going up there. Josh Allen is is having a great season, but Josh Allen doesn’t have the weapons that Lamar does. Now, my question would be to you, what’s a flower situation? I don’t even know what that is. Well,
Nestor Aparicio 24:54
in the weather situation, too, in this this team is built to just go run if it needs. Too, and the Steelers are built to sort of stop that. So that’s concerning. The Ravens take care of business, especially against teams that don’t know them well. If they were to get to a super boss that they be a 10 point favorite over the lions or like Nestor, you know
Clark Judge 25:15
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who their biggest problem is. The biggest problem for the Ravens is the Ravens. I mean, they make so many stupid penalties. I mean, they hurt themselves that they could get over that. Can they do
Nestor Aparicio 25:26
that for a month? And they spend the next month not getting into penalty jail, not exposing the kicker, not having the secondary being confused. And they’ve just been deft at identifying good football players and Kyle Hamilton, and this thing that they’ve done, and I’ve talked to Luke at length about this, by the way, if you’re tuning in on the radio, Clark judge, long time NFL historian, is here Hall of Fame voter, all that good stuff, the the in season move. We go back to 12 years ago when they won the Super Bowl with Flacco. They fired their offensive coordinator in the middle of December and made Jim Caldwell the play caller and Joe Flacco was planking, and they lost an awful game to the Denver Broncos, and they were all but buried in the mile. I mean, there were so many moments where they could have been it could have been awful. This thing they lost to the Eagles four weeks ago, and it wasn’t good, and the kicker’s head was ice. The defense wasn’t going well, very susceptible all the mistakes on the offensive line. They weren’t running the ball as well as they wanted to, because the offensive and it’s all changed. This narrative has changed in the last month, the narrative for the Steelers, they’ve gone into the toilet through all of this. But the the amazing part has been this defensive ability to take this really special mention Hall of Fame with you. Kyle Hamilton, a couple of years in the building, whatever that career is, yeah, drop back and just quarterback the defense we just won’t lose after we do that. And that’s happened, they’ve been very deft at what they’ve done, including bringing in DPS down Zach or because their best inside linebackers playing for the Steelers this week, right? Patrick queen, yeah,
Clark Judge 27:06
yeah. No, that’s right. I mean, I that’s the other thing is, their defense has become much more salient. I think over the last month or so, they’ve really become a defense that you can rely on. I think down the stretch, whereas early in the season, I went, boy, the secondary is suspicious, and I don’t know they can protect any lead. Well, they can now. And so the defense is playing better. They’re playing with confidence. I look at teams that accelerate into the playoffs, that is a that is one of those teams, and you look at the talent, you go that makes them dangerous, then you’ve got Lamar Jackson, whoa, Derek Henry, oh, my God. You know Andrews say flowers. And as I said, I don’t know what situation is, but you’ve got Bateman, you’ve got people on the outside. Likely can be another weapon on the outside, even though it’s a tight end. But, and now the defense is coming around. What’s not to like? And with Pittsburgh, we’re just talking about Saturday, what’s not to like? You got a half an hour because they’re not playing well right now. They’re not playing well. They can’t score points. You know, I looked at somebody who, I don’t know, who was it that somebody’s interviewing Arthur Smith, maybe the bears or something, went, What are you talking about? They’re descending team, and Russell Wilson’s been beaten up. He and they’re they’re just not who they were mid season and and I thought that game last time Baldwin were delivered a message, you know, you’ve planned to play us in the playoffs. Good luck. Good luck. I mean, it’s not going to be good for you. And so, as I said, I think honestly, you mentioned Philadelphia, I could see a Baltimore, Philadelphia Super Bowl very easily, because they’re complete teams, you know, and every team’s got a flaw, but those two are as complete as you’re going to find out there. The problem with Philadelphia right now is the quarterback. What’s going on with concussion protocol? I don’t know. I mean, I covered quarterback Steve Young, who had multiple concussions, and in three weeks is a while, I mean, and that was back in the 90s, but he would miss three or four weeks, but that’s because he had multiple concussions. What’s going on with Jalen Hurts? Can they win without him? That’s a Quan Barkley. I mean, he and Henry the two best running backs out there. So can you beat teams with defense? And say? Quan Barkley, I don’t know that, but Baltimore has got Lamar and Henry and defense. I do worry a little bit about Tucker, and it’s hard for me to say that, because he’s been so good for so long I’ve seen, and you have to You see every game some miskits that were automatic for him and and with them, as you know, I mean, I’ve dealt with specialists over the years and serve you, it’s a mental thing, and if you get in a situation where you no longer confidence a kicker, you’re in trouble.
Nestor Aparicio 29:32
Clark judges here, he will be voting on all things NFL, and, excuse me, Pro Football Hall of Fame. I should say he has been on the staff for about 15 years and doing that preview in the game here. So everybody but my homes in Kansas City, we haven’t talked about that. I haven’t even asked you, is Joshua and the MVP or any of that, but it feels like Kansas City just sits out and wait they make their double their discount double checks and their funny commercials and do all of that, and then we try to figure out how everybody’s going. To beat them, and then they’re going to wind up playing, you know, Harbaugh’s brother, or Houston probably, although we’ll all be big Broncos fans here on Sunday after the Ravens win on Saturday night. But the notion that you’re just going to go out to Kansas City and beat them, and that that’s going to be an easy thing, because, I mean, I’ve never heard a 15 win team be so maligned Clark they
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Clark Judge 30:20
haven’t scored more than 30 points all year. So I’m going to tell you this. This is what I strongly believe. And obviously I’m biased. I think the chargers, a team I covered years ago, are going to win this weekend, and I want them to win because they can beat Kansas City. They can beat them. They have been very competitive with them in the past. Harbaugh knows how to beat better teams. They don’t have weapons to really compete with them, but somehow he’ll figure out a way to at least stay there, and if they’re there at the end of the game, look out quarterbacks playing really well right now. Why doesn’t Kansas City get more attention? I think because we’ve seen it so much every year, Holmes isn’t having a particularly great season, but he wins when he has to. I mean, statistically, he hasn’t, but he wins when he has to. He’s also one of those who’s accelerated as we’ve gotten closer to the finish line here. That’s his MO but they’ve been somewhat underwhelming this year, and you go down the litany of you know, just photo finishes, and it’s just astounding the good fortune, let’s put it that way that they’ve had in games down the stretch. The Baltimore game started at Cincinnati game when there was a pass interference called on a fourth down GAME OVER pass interference, they lose the game that Bengals do. Then you go to Atlanta, obvious pass interference in the end zone committed by their chiefs. They don’t call it. They lose the game, and they’re going in to win easy field goal. 32 yarder that the Broncos got game is going to It’s blocked. The Raiders easy field goal. 15 seconds. They’ve snapped the ball and fumbled the Chiefs get. So at what point do you have more than nine lives? I mean, at some point you go, My God, what is going on here? I mean, it’s just they find ways to win. Good teams find ways to win, bad teams find ways to lose. They win two games at home and they’re in the Super Bowl. That’s it, and that’s it. So their worst nightmare is the Chargers. I’m going to tell you that their worst night. They don’t want to play them. They’d love to play Houston. They’d love to play they already played him this year and beat him. They play the Chargers twice, so they go pretty good. Feel about him. I worry about Harbaugh in those big games. He gets his teams ready. As I said, I covered both the chargers and the 40 Niners. I knew him in the 40 Niners that first year with San Francisco’s remarkable what he did. He got them in the conference championship game. They probably should have won, but Elon Manning had, to me, the greatest game of his career. People, top of the Super Bowl is that, to me, was the best game I ever saw. Eli man beaten into submission. Just kept coming up, throwing, throwing, throwing, and they won, I think was over time, but, but he is extraordinary at getting teams to turn around quickly. The Chargers last year went five games. This year they went 11. And he does that everywhere he goes, dude, if he comes
Nestor Aparicio 33:07
in here in a championship game, takes his brother’s lunch money, that would be something. That’s all I’m saying, you know,
Clark Judge 33:13
yeah, and that’s right, but, but John, John’s got a history against him, right? John says, okay, my brother’s coming off. They got a way to beat him, and I think they will. I mean, so I think the most talented team is, is Baltimore is the most talented team. Now you got it. Talent doesn’t all necessarily translate to winning, but you’ve got to show up in those, excuse me, in those big games. And Lamar Jackson to me, just this should be who he is during the regular season. I mean, he’s a great, great player. He’s got some things to prove, but he’s got to go in here, going, listen, I don’t have to prove anything. I’m just going to go to the Super Bowl. Forget that two and four playoff record. You can talk all you want about it. I’m going to win here, I’m going to win buffalo, I’m going to win Kansas City. I’m going to do that. So let’s see it’s in front of him. They’ve got the weapons to do it. I think they have the defense to do it. Last year, they could have beaten them in the conference championship game. I’m talking about the chiefs. They didn’t. They have something to prove here. They could have beaten them in the season opener. They didn’t. That’s, again, a testimony to the chiefs, for whatever reason, seem to get there at the end. So this time, do it. Just do it. Just go out there and be yourself. Do it. Don’t fall all over yourself with stupid penalties. You know, be disciplined. Do it right, and you can get there. You get the New Orleans that month. I always
Nestor Aparicio 34:28
8
any question, people believe that the other ravens are capable, that, whether they will or not, will find that Clark judge is our guest. He called and said, Hello, it’s me. Right after my it’s the first time we’ve been together since I saw rungren. So, I mean, I want to take just one detour before I let you go, just on the rungren thing. I had seen him do a bowie thing. He did that new cars thing years ago, whatever. But I went up on this beautiful night to the Strand Theater in York, Pennsylvania, had a beautiful meal with my wife at this place up the street. That one of my great meals of the year. There, and we went to the show. And, you know, I had interviewed Todd, and Todd, as you will point out, and we sat about the 12th row, and he’s doing his thing, and he’s doing his whole theatrical thing and the thing. And we, you know, we, we, I, we left, and we drove home, and I, my wife got in the car, and my wife doesn’t know a lot of wrong grin. She sort of had seen the the barrel halls thing and the why that I talked about, she said to me that was a little weird. And I thought, What’s wrong with you? You know, she’s never 20 years of our marriage. But she didn’t get it. I got it. I had a great night. People love, you know what I loved about it? I loved seeing people that love Todd rungren loved, yeah,
Clark Judge 35:45
that’s a very that’s it. That was a very eclectic tour, and I saw, I saw twice this past year, same set list. But to me, all you’ve got to do is hear him do a cappella honest work for honest work with two other members of the band and, and you think that that’s as good as it gets. And then beloved infidel acapella got a great voice, and it’s a beautiful song. And he’s, I just think he’s in a different category. We talked about first ballot Hall of Famers, right? He would be my first ballot Rock and Roll Hall of Famer. But that’s a whole another thing which you talked about, you know, when you were mentioning, you know, who’s in, who’s really want to say
Nestor Aparicio 36:26
there’s no politics at all involved in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? Oh, of course, I know. I mean,
Clark Judge 36:32
we don’t have Jethro Tull in there, but we have Dolly Parton. I mean, what rock and roll? I saw
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Nestor Aparicio 36:37
Janet Jackson get inducted the night I was at the Barclay Center, you know. And I saw the cure blow my mind that night, you know? Yeah, Robert
Clark Judge 36:44
Smith and cure, but, but Janet Jackson got in the year that run grim was a first time finalist, and he didn’t get in when Janet Jackson’s in and Todd’s not, and that’s when he said, forget it. I don’t want sticks.
Nestor Aparicio 36:55
Isn’t considered. I’m thinking, what’s the 100 million albums in the 50 years of doing this? And like Joe,
Clark Judge 37:01
8
Joe Cocker is not in. Joe Cocker, I mean, come on. And so we’re putting, we’re, I mean, it’s so it’s a music so
Nestor Aparicio 37:09
you being a voter for the Pro Football Hall of Fame. You’re pissed at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. We’re both pissed at the Baseball Hall of Fame, right? Pete Rose died, and they still didn’t put him in. And they’re doing it all in front of gambling ads. Yeah, and
Clark Judge 37:23
Harold Baines is in and so, but
Nestor Aparicio 37:26
Harold pays nice guy, nice guy,
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Clark Judge 37:28
but, but, but the thing is, What runger And said, which I sort of agree with. He goes, Listen, I don’t believe in Hall of Fame is, first of all, and, and secondly, I mean, it should be dead to be in Hall of Fame. Why are we honoring people still out there? And he said, I don’t care. And at least he was true to himself, because when he didn’t get in, he said, I don’t care about it. But this was about my fans, because you have to remember, you support them, and I voted every day voted. And so he’s the third highest vote getter. So you go, if he’s the third highest, people want him in. And Janet Jackson got in and others and he didn’t. So he said, I give up on I’m not doing it. So he got voted in couple years later, and he said, Fine, I’m not going. And he didn’t. He did not go past. Can I give
Nestor Aparicio 38:03
you a really sad story? Because I’ve told this one time, the night that Janet Jackson got in, I went with my friend Julio Bermejo from San Francisco, and he was in Brooklyn and called me. So you want to come up to New York? Google, sure. Def Leppard got in. It was the worst ensemble ever. Go google how awful and off key them doing all the young dudes was at the end. It was terrible. So it was a interesting night. Stevie Nicks did leather and lace with Don Henley and stuff. I’m on the sort of terrorist level, 20 yard line, other end of the hockey rink. You know, I got $100 ticket downstairs. It was 12. It was all night long. The thing went all night. It’s made for all the drunk people down in the front on the tables, right? There was a woman who came with her eight year old boy, and he was very antsy. I mean, this was a, not a thing. You want a kid in a seat in a hockey arena, right? Yeah, all night long, they waited for they were only there to see Janet Jackson. She was a Janet Jackson super fan, like a, like a, like a, they were all Janet Jackson, everything about them. They were at this thing, sitting through the cure, sitting through Janet Jack. They thought she was going to sing. She kept saying to me, when Janet sings, when Janet sings like Janet Jackson came out, she looked a little puffy. She didn’t look good. She came out and she did a little thank you. I’d like to thank all my fans. Thank you. Good night. She walked off the stage. This woman had waited with her kid for hours thinking that Janet Jackson was going to sing and didn’t, and I would like so that night, I’m thinking same as you. I’m like, What are they doing putting Janet Jackson, at least? I’ll say this for you, and you just made a Harold Baines joke, and that’s cool, because he probably is not a baseball fan. You guys never put anybody in there. You guys never put anybody in that shouldn’t be in. Yo, sure. Right? Yeah. I mean, we’re at a different level when we’re having Hollywood stars. That’s right, I don’t people that don’t deserve it. That’s, I don’t
Clark Judge 40:05
want to be specific, but I’d say in the last six years, I could name you two or three, but, yeah, Harold Baines was a really good player. I’m not trying to denigrate a really good player, but Hall of Fame, you know, that’s a different level, and that’s what I think people don’t understand when they talk about, you know, this guy’s first ballot. He’s going to the Hall of Fame. I, as I said, I probably mentioned you before. I remember a telecast years ago. It was a Monday night game, and Steven goskowski was kicking then for the Tennessee Titans, I think, and and he made a long field goal, and ESPN was doing the game. And I forgotten who the announcer was, but he said Stephen goskowski, who someday will be in the Hall of Fame, and maybe as a first ballot Hall of Famer. And my jaw dropped, and I actually wrote about it, because I went, Wait, we at that time, we’d had two specialists in and I said, Stephen goskowski, and we’ve got, we’ve got Ray Guy, and we’ve got Jan stenrod at that, you know, at that point, as I said, it was later that we had Morton Anderson, but when Stephen he’s not going in period first ballot Hall of Famer, well, I mean,
Nestor Aparicio 41:05
8there’s to pull football together this week as an example. You know, I’m close to the guys in sticks. I don’t think they really care whether they get in or not. I know Dennis. I had Lawrence Gowan on the show this year, right when I had Todd rungren on and the renegade thing has become a part of their thing in Pittsburgh. When I think of sticks, and I think it’s like Todd rungren. I talked to Todd rungren for 40 minutes. He gave me 20, and spent 40. He loved talking to he refused to put the camera on. But once we got going and I talked to him about almost everything but him about his career, because he’s touched everybody else’s career producing meatloaf just down the line of all the things he’s ever done. Oh yeah to myself, people like Desmond Child, who wrote all of these songs, and these songwriters and different people that don’t even, not even their own work, but like, sticks would be like, if I’m in the room with John winter, I’m like, Come sail away, babe of 100 million albums sold 50 years of doing this. Stop, sit down. They’re in. Put them yeah, there can be no argument on certain people. And at least you guys aren’t. You didn’t make an ass out of Terrell Owens, even if he made an ass of himself. You know what I
Clark Judge 42:19
mean? Yeah. But I mean, for your listeners, if they watch Green Bay games and Lambo, when they score, what do they play? Bang on the drum all day.
Nestor Aparicio 42:31
They do see that. And I don’t know if the Packers are going to win or not. Clark, I want to let you go. We’ll compare Burt Jones notes next time I have just gone into this rabbit hole with these 1971 NFL belt buckles, because I’m a belt buckle guy, and they’re fun, dude. I look down my wall, St Louis Cardinals, and then I see Oakland Raiders. I see Washington, all these teams that they don’t even have the same name anymore. But then I look up and I see Los Angeles Rams, and I’m like, Oh, they came back. Right? Yeah, yeah, I should have
Clark Judge 43:02
walked my Baltimore Colts hat. I got Baltimore cats, gold col sat sweatshirt and T shirt. I
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Nestor Aparicio 43:07
see rams, Vikings, and all I see is like Bloomington and stallback and Fran Tarkington in my childhood, including, like, a weird thing with officials in that game. Clark judges here, he is a legend, and he knows that I know a little bit about football because I dropped, you know, babe Laufenberg references and, you know, like things like that. Um, hey, it is a Hall of Fame week. We have a Hall of Fame matchup Steelers Ravens. Wouldn’t want it any other way from my Earl Campbell Jersey because my, my fancy schmancy Derek Henry King Henry Oilers Jersey arriving in the mail. It’s coming this week. I got a 22 and anybody ask him like he’s going through the Hall of Fame. I’m Nestor. We are W, N, S, T, A, M, 1570 Towson, Baltimore. Happy New Year to everybody.
Clark Judge 43:54
What are you doing that’s that’s Go ahead, go that’s for the
Nestor Aparicio 44:00
Montreal Canadiens. He’s gonna get the record that
Clark Judge 44:04
8
you and I talk hockey all the time. So I just throw that on you to tell you that I haven’t forgotten about hockey. That’s another conversation for another day.
Nestor Aparicio 44:11
Well, you know on it’s interesting that you would bring that up, because on January the sixth, I tweeted out and Facebooked out all of the newspaper frontages of the insurrection, and I quoted the great Quebec license plate, Jamie sovian. That’s it. I’m dropping the microphone. We’re positive, and I do remember.
