“It’s the best book ever written about the modern National Football League,” so says Nestor about Big Game. And that’s why we love having its author Mark Leibovich back on when his New England Patriots proudly return to Baltimore for some playoff knockout style football. Now with The Atlantic, the longtime political insider for The New York Times is also heavily immersed in Trumplandia and weighs in on the ongoing Epstein saga and the usual D.C. shenanigans.
Nestor Aparicio and Mark Leibovich discuss the NFL and Leibovich’s book “Big Game.” Leibovich describes the NFL as a “swamp,” “racket,” and “juggernaut,” highlighting the league’s political dynamics and the personal scandals involving key figures like Bob Kraft, Bill Belichick, and Tom Brady. They touch on the league’s response to scandals, the impact of gambling, and the league’s marketing prowess. Leibovich also reflects on his transition from politics to sports journalism and the challenges of covering Trump and the political landscape. The conversation concludes with Leibovich promoting his book and Aparicio promoting the Maryland crab cake tour.
- [ ] @Nestor Aparicio – Host the Maryland crab cake tour event at Costas in Dundalk on Thursday with Gina Shock and invited guests (including Mr. Calvin Stadium) as part of the scheduled tour dates
- [ ] @Nestor Aparicio – Host the Maryland crab cake tour event at Gertrude’s at the BMA on Friday with Dan Rodricks and feature discussion about 1966 and vegan/real crab cake options
- [ ] @Nestor Aparicio – Host the Planet Fitness event on Monday in Timonium (wrap-up of the crab cake tour) to help attendees work off holiday weight
- [ ] @Nestor Aparicio – Distribute Raven scratch-off lottery tickets as giveaways during the Maryland crab cake tour events
- [ ] @Nestor Aparicio – Bring and distribute Candy Cane Cash scratch-off tickets as giveaways during the Maryland crab cake tour events
Maryland Crab Cake Tour and Upcoming Events
- Nestor Aparicio introduces the Maryland crab cake tour, mentioning various events and locations, including Costas in Dundalk, Gertrude’s at the BMA, and Planet Fitness in Timonium.
- Nestor highlights the sponsors, including the Maryland lottery, and mentions giveaways like Raven scratch offs and candy cane cash.
- Nestor expresses excitement about the tour and the opportunity to meet fans and friends at different locations.
- Nestor introduces Mark Leibovich, a favorite author known for his NFL book “Big Game,” and mentions his long-time association with the New York Times and the Atlantic.
Mark Leibovich’s NFL Book and Personal Connection
- Mark Leibovich appreciates the introduction and shares his background in politics and his break from it to write about the NFL.
- Mark describes the NFL as a swamp, a racket, and a juggernaut, noting the political nature of the league and its organizations.
- Mark mentions that “Big Game” is his most fun book and that it resonates with hardcore NFL fans who understand the league’s dynamics.
- Nestor and Mark discuss the appeal of the NFL and the addictive nature of the sport, despite its flaws.
NFL Dynasties and Personalities
- Nestor and Mark discuss the success of the New England Patriots, particularly during the Brady-Belichick era, and the impact of their personalities on the league.
- Mark shares his personal connection to the Patriots, having grown up in New England, and his observations on the league’s dynamics.
- Nestor mentions the personal scandals involving Bob Kraft, Belichick, and Brady, and how they have affected their legacies.
- Mark reflects on the league’s mythology and the presence of villains, even among successful teams like the Patriots.
Current State of the NFL and Personal Reflections
- Mark discusses the current state of the NFL, noting that the league’s dynamics have not changed significantly since he wrote “Big Game.”
- Mark expresses his continued interest in the NFL despite its flaws, attributing it to his addiction and the league’s dominance in entertainment.
- Nestor and Mark discuss the league’s response to scandals, including the impact of gambling on the league’s integrity.
- Mark reflects on the league’s marketing and production capabilities, which make it a compelling TV product.
Political Coverage and Personal Preferences
- Nestor transitions the conversation to Mark’s political coverage, mentioning his work on Trump, Landia, and other political topics.
- Mark shares his perspective on the political landscape, noting the seriousness of the Trump story and the challenges faced by both major political parties.
- Mark expresses his desire to find a break from politics through other topics, but has not found one yet.
- Nestor and Mark discuss the overlap between politics and sports, with Mark noting the escape value of sports for him.
Epstein Scandal and Its Implications
- Nestor brings up the Epstein scandal and its implications for the Republican party and Trump.
- Mark acknowledges the seriousness of the issue and its impact on the political landscape, noting the overlap between privileged men in politics and business.
- Mark reflects on the challenges of covering such serious topics as part of his day job.
- Nestor and Mark discuss the broader implications of the scandal and its impact on public trust and perception.
Final Thoughts and Promotion of “Big Game”
- Nestor wraps up the conversation by promoting Mark’s book “Big Game” and encouraging listeners to read it.
- Mark reiterates the importance of the book and its insights into the NFL and its personalities.
- Nestor shares details about the Maryland crab cake tour and the upcoming events, including giveaways and locations.
- Nestor thanks Mark for the conversation and wishes listeners a happy holiday season.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
NFL book, Big Game, Mark Leibovich, Patriots fan, Bob Kraft, Bill Belichick, Tom Brady, league politics, gambling threat, NFL swamp, entertainment, Trump, Epstein scandal, Maryland crab cake tour, Baltimore positive.
8
SPEAKERS
Nestor Aparicio, Mark Leibovich
Nestor Aparicio 00:01
Welcome home. We are W, N, S, T am 1570 Towson, Baltimore. We are Baltimore positive. We are taking the Maryland crab cake tour on the road. We’re halfway home. We’re going to be at Costas and Dundalk on Thursday with Rock and Roll Hall of Famer Gina shock and all my rock and roll goons, including my seventh grade middle school music teacher, Mr. Calvin stadium, who’s 85 years old. We’re going to tell some old stories and probably sing some Christmas carols. Friday, we’re going to be at gertrude’s with the great Dan Rodricks, talking about the year 1966 my cousin John shields. We’re going to eat vegan crab cakes. Eat some real crab cakes too. It’s all brought to you by the Maryland lottery. I’ll have Raven scratch offs to give away, as well as the candy cane cash. And then we’re going to wrap things up on Monday with plan. Planet Fitness party hats with 2026 glasses on, and try to lose some of this eggnog and cookie weight that I’ve been putting on here with my friends at Koco’s and everybody we’ve been doing the crab cake tour with. This guy is one of my favorite authors, because he wrote the ultimate NFL book. He blushes when I say this, but I’ve read a lot of books. I’ve written a couple of books. Big Game is my favorite. NFL book is appeal back to curtain right before my ouster by Chad steel and Steve bishati and some other nice fellows over in Owings Mills. He is Mark Leibovich, longtime New York Times writer, longtime author, now with the Atlantic and always following the muddy and bloody trail of democracy and truth and lies in Washington, DC, Happy Holidays to you. Mark it is a patriot week. You are allegedly a patriot fan who wrote this book a few years ago, and I felt it. I just keep saying to people, if you want to understand the league, pick up Liebowitz book, because it’s brilliant. So there you have it.
Mark Leibovich 01:45
Thank you, Nestor. Well, first of all, I appreciate that. I mean, I, as you mentioned, you know, my day job is politics. So when I wrote the book, which was few years ago now, when the Patriots were still good, well, the first time, you know, you know what I mean, like with the Brady era, see if they’re good this week. Yeah, they’re Yeah, exactly, yeah. We’ll see. We’ll see where they wind up in a few weeks. But no, it was, it was a nice break from politics. I mean, the NFL has a whole is a swamp all its own, and there’s a whole lot of politics with each organization and and it was as fun a book. I mean, I’ve written five books that was the most fun. And also, it’s the book that people when I mention it first it. You know, political books get kind of much more noise around it. But when, when people mention the book, I know that they’re hardcore NFL people. I know that they kind of get the joke, as we say in Washington. And, you know, have kind of a love, hate relationship with the sport, with the league, with a lot of the teams that I do. And look, it’s a racket, but it’s a racket that kind of dominates the entertainment world in America, and like, a bunch of us, are just addicted to it, and the NFL is a juggernaut. So it’s pretty fascinating. But, yeah, no, I mean, I watch the game Sunday, and it’s interesting. It gets, you know, it’s nice to have a team. So I did grow up up there in New England, so kind of born into that, for better or for worse,
Nestor Aparicio 03:07
8you lost a lot. I got Patriot Pat up here. I’ll pull him down, and we’ll talk about Steve Grogan and Sam the band, Cunningham, Randy vataha coming in here back in the day, and losing to Bert Jones and like, and even the Easton era and the bears and all of that. When you win 17 division titles and you have the Brady Belichick thing and and we can get really into that, but I just, I just want to reiterate, like, why I like you so much. Because just in one little vignette, you you call the NFL a swamp, a racket and a juggernaut. I caught that
Mark Leibovich 03:40
I stand by it. So that was a few years ago, and it’s 100% true now. It’s, it seems it hasn’t changed a bit. Yeah, the names change a little bit. The faces change. I mean, a lot of, lot of the the owners don’t really go anywhere, and they’ll, you know, Roger Goodell and go anywhere. But no, the story remains the same. And, you know, again, I kind of wish I could give it up, because there’s a lot of it’d be nice to I spent a lot of time on it, put it that way, and spend a lot of money on the various things you got to pay for if you want to watch football, like Sunday Ticket and red zone and all that stuff. But, you know, look, I’m addicted, and I’m 60 years old, so it’s not going to change anytime soon. All right, well,
Nestor Aparicio 04:20
going back to your book, and your book was on the league. It had a lot of Jerry it had a lot of Bob Kraft. Since then, Bob Kraft had the Chinese massage parlor. Belichick’s got a 20 year old girlfriend. He’s trying to and his like. He’s really not done good by his legacy. Brady sort of owns the Raiders, sort of doesn’t. He’s cloning his dog. He’s busted up with his supermodel. He’s destroyed his family. He’s destroyed some part of the shine on him his I went and saw Nikki Glaser tell jokes, because she ripped him pretty good and she wasn’t very funny, but she was that night. And I think that’s the trio of the shine of the league that if you were to say, here’s the league. Success in this century, you would look to the leadership of Goodell, whose wife may or may not have a tattoo, or he may or may not have a tattoo of the league, but Kraft Brady Belichick, from your perspective, and on a patriot week here these billionaires and really rich guys, really kooky outfit, right? And when you get into it, you called it a swamp, a racket and a juggernaut it. Add the shine, add the Hollywood, add the glitz. It’s just Drama Mama, isn’t it?
Mark Leibovich 05:31
Absolutely, yeah, no. And people love that. It’s a great soap opera. It’s reality TV. I mean, the the I mean, every team has it too. I mean, it’s like, you know, there’s, there’s quite a history in Baltimore, Washington, whatever you want to say. I mean, it’s like there is mythology. I mean, the Pats sort of kind of dominated the century just because they won. But doesn’t mean they’re beyond reproach by any means. It doesn’t mean they’re without villains. I mean, I think Kraft makes a pretty good villain. I think Belichick makes an even better villain. And Brady, you know, very easy guy for people to resent, although I was always a Brady guy, as far as thinking that he was kind of the best of the three and also the most responsible for all of their success. And either way he’s gone. And, you know, we had, I mean, Belichick kind of played out the string. And I mean, long before he had his issues in North Carolina. I mean, he is, he was kind of ruining his own legacy in New England for the last few years, beginning with how he left, how he let Brady walk. I mean, you just can’t let a goat get out of town. I mean, that kind of Jerry Reinsdorf still hasn’t, you know, really recovered from that for letting Michael Jordan get out of Chicago back in the 90s. So I do think, though, that what’s what’s fun is there’s always a chance for regeneration. I mean, the Ravens have been good or very good for a long, long time. But of course, you know, the story of is always about the Holy Grail, and how are you going to, like, get to the last game? And, yeah, suddenly the Pats are good again. I think I don’t know if they’re as good as their record has said they’re been, but it’s nice to have compelling football for my home team playing in December again, and, you know, January too. So yeah, we got the Ravens coming up this Sunday.
8Nestor Aparicio 07:06
The confirmation of whether it was craft or Belichick or Brady was when Brady was holding the trophy drunk on the boat in Tampa, right? Like that. That’s the confirmation that Brady, at 42 or whatever, he was eating avocado ice cream. He was the reason, right? I mean, there can be no question about that anymore, right?
Mark Leibovich 07:26
Yeah. I mean, obviously, you know Belichick, you know his place in Canton is assured, and he, you know, he gets a lot of credit. But I think in addition to Brady’s success, as soon as he left in 2020, you know, the Belichick essentially ran them into the ground. You know, he ruined Mac Jones. He drafted Mac Jones, who had some real promise. He just kind of mismanaged the coaching staff, the roster, the drafts and so forth. And next thing you know, it’s 2024 and they’re, you know, a laughing stock again. And Belichick had full control until he didn’t. And so look, I mean, I guess craft, I give him some credit for recognizing that the fiasco that was the year long, yeah, last year’s Gerard Mayo experiment wasn’t working, and brought in Mike Rabel, who has a lot of affection and a lot of status within New England for winning three Super Bowls with the team. And he’s been great. And Drake May has been great. And again, I mean, the question is, are they fools gold or not? I think, I think they’ve had a really easy schedule. I mean, they have a really easy schedule, and they lost to Buffalo yesterday. So we’ll see. We’ll see where this year ends up. But either way, it’s been, it’s been a bonus, because no one expected this.
Nestor Aparicio 08:36
Mark Leibovitch covers politics, Trump, Landia and all things Washington, DC, the swamp, the racket, whatever you want to call it, the Russians, all down in DC for the Atlantic. You can follow his work out in all sorts of social media spaces. He also writes books about Big Boy things and big boy pants. But also once took all the time off from that swamp and entered the NFL swamp. So your NFL journey was like 1718, What years were those?
Mark Leibovich 09:03
8Yeah, I mean, I basically was immersed in the NFL in 19, maybe from 2016 to 2018
Nestor Aparicio 09:11
so it’s been almost a decade, like seven years out, right?
Mark Leibovich 09:15
Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I guess the book came out in 18. So it’s been, yeah, seven years.
Nestor Aparicio 09:20
Take me a deep dive back in, because I do want people to buy your book, read your book, because it I just think it’s the most brilliant insights of the world that I experienced, from the modals to the bashadis. You know, of my roles at those owners meetings for years and years and Super Bowls and all this stuff and cover and Dick Cass here and asking questions that they didn’t want to answer, including about Justin Tucker here at this point, and just Ray Rice punching his wife in the elevator, and all of them lying. So you kind of came in in that period of time, and the last seven or eight years, the way you view the league, the way you feel about the league, having met some of. These characters, and I’m assuming you were in a room with peshawti and a whole bunch of these other owners and, you know, movers and shakers in the league, including Roger Goodell and his wife. How do you view the league now that we’re into you called it a racket. I mean, basically, gambling is now baked in. They’re earning on it. They are setting the game, making the rules, picking the judges, blowing on the dice and deciding who wins every bet. So, I mean, it really is. It’s moved beyond even where you had it a decade ago. But how do you see it differently when you do watch it, knowing more than the average bear?
8Mark Leibovich 10:37
You know same? I mean, again, it’s sort of being a sports fan is all about leap of faith. I mean, being an entertainment consumer is all about a leap of faith. You sort of have to put a lot of your critical thinking or a lot of your kind of skepticism on hold, and just, you know, there’s something beautiful about the sport, right? Or, I mean, any sport, but football, especially. And you know, the one thing they do really, really well is both marketing and production. I mean, they make it a very, very appealing TV product to kind of produce, like a three hour movie every week. I mean, the cameras are perfectly situated. I mean, the field is perfectly symmetrical, with with screens. And, yeah, I mean, I’m not giving that up. I mean, I do think, from what my my sense is, just from people I still talk to inside the league, hasn’t changed much like you mentioned. I mean, the one wild card that has changed since I was paying attention was gambling, and like in all sports, and increasingly, in all walks of life, it’s, it’s kind of a game changer, as far as both the threat of corruption, the revenue opportunities of the league, and just the destruction and potential corruption inside players and teams and so forth. I mean, I don’t know how you regulate it. I mean, the NBA has had all kinds of issues. MLB has had all kinds of issues. NFL seems to have less, which is interesting because, I mean, every commissioner, going back to Pete Rosell, has always said that the big kind of, the real existential threat to football is gambling and sort of any kind of idea that the game isn’t on the level, that it’s been fixed and so forth. NFL, I don’t know how hard they’re looking. I don’t know how you know what we might be missing there, but it seems to but, I mean, I do think it’s like a big existential threat that sort of looms over everything, the way concussions used to be and still are, obviously, but I don’t know. I mean, the people seem to be talking less about concussions for as much damage as they continue to do. But I do think, you know, gambling is kind of this lurking menace that the leagues might have to deal with at some point, or this league has to deal with at some point.
Nestor Aparicio 12:47
What is fascinating, since you wrote the book, they’ve played through a plague. They’ve played an empty stadia. They’ve staged for television. They, you know, they’ve they put masks on guys, made them practice, had protocols played Wednesday afternoon games between the Steelers and ravens. I mean, they will make their money. They’ve expanded it to all of these other countries where nobody had ever heard of a football or seen a ball, you know, that looked like that, that wasn’t a rugby ball. They’ve, they’ve, they’ve done all of that, and yet nobody trusts them, do we?
Mark Leibovich 13:20
I mean, I don’t know, probably not, but they watch the games anyway. I mean, I guess it’s exactly, well, no, I wouldn’t compare it to professional wrestling, because professional wrestling is legitimately fixed. I mean, I don’t have any proof that football games are fixed, and I, you know, I didn’t, I wouldn’t trust NFL owners, as far as you know. I don’t trust billionaires generally. I mean, they’re not like you and me and and, you know, they have a racket. I mean, I don’t. These are not normal people for the most part. And these are probably not people. If I were, like a corporate person, I would not like pick any of these guys for my board, right? But look, I don’t have to, like be these guys best friends. I just have to pay them a little bit of a bit of money every year, and they entertain me. But, you know, I can walk away and everything, but I look, I think they have a great product. And again, I’m kind of born into the disease. So here I am. I’m not going to spend much energy fighting it.
Nestor Aparicio 14:14
8Mark Lee boots is here. He is a sensible most of the week, just those three hours on Sunday, I love how you’re like, let’s, like, go into a movie. Just suspend your belief that that’s really about their fighting for New England’s honor and for the fans and for the family and all of that stuff, or just for my bet this week, or my fantasy team, or whatever it is. Yet you cover a whole different world. So let’s get into what you really do on a daily basis, which is chase around. And I go back to trust and truth, and you know, sort of out the people that are lying about where our money’s going and what our government’s doing on behalf of its people. And it’s really scary times. I mean, forget the football side of this Trump was here in. Doing about 48 hours ago, on the field, running the military. It’s, it’s beyond dangerous. It’s outrageous, especially the Russian involvement. It’s outrageous.
Mark Leibovich 15:11
Yeah, no, it’s, it’s, yeah. I mean, it’s like, again, it’s my day job. I mean, the Trump story is, is pretty serious. It’s scary. It’s, you know, the Democrats are not in a great place either. And, you know, unfortunately, you know, we don’t have the luxury of, like, following politics. I mean, a lot of people do follow politics as entertainment, but this is real world stuff where is, ultimately, you know, sports, football, that’s sort of us choosing to escape, and it’s just a game, which is, you know, I think there’s a cause effect there. I think people I know I do just sort of look to escape my day job, you know, by having this recreation to pay attention to, right? This mindless BS, right? So I don’t know. I mean, look, I, I would love to find a project that allowed me to take another break from politics. I just haven’t found it yet. I don’t know if it’s sports. I don’t know if it’s football, but, yeah, I’m on the lookout. So hopefully there’ll be another, another side piece for me to sort of pay attention to, topic wise in the next few years.
Nestor Aparicio 16:14
Well, keeping it topical here the Epstein thing and where evidence would be of, you know, condoms with Donald Trump’s face in his place, not to mention all the pictures, all the video, the postcard with the, you know, with the the his handwriting, just all of it. What’s, what’s the upshot of all of that, when no one on the Republican side of Congress either cares, whereas maybe Marjorie Taylor Greene said they’re all being threatened.
Mark Leibovich 16:44
Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, that’s obviously a mess of an issue. And look, I mean, I don’t know where there’s gonna wind up. It certainly hasn’t been good for Republicans. Hasn’t been good for Trump, but I mean, it does seem to be kind of in this holding pattern, so we’ll see. I mean, it’s, again, it’s, it’s sorted. And again, though there’s some overlap about, you know, mostly men, almost entirely men, and very, very rich men and privileged men, whether they’re in politics or business,
8Nestor Aparicio 17:16
or the King of England
Mark Leibovich 17:18
or the King of England, or, you know, NFL owners. I mean, look, I don’t know. I mean, I’m sure, I don’t know if the Epstein files touches on any NFL owners, but these are not generally high character people in many ways. So again, it’s all kind of familiar. And, you know, unfortunately, this is my day job, so I got to pay attention to it. But it’s, yeah, we’ll see where it ends up. I mean, I mean, I don’t know, it just seems like we could be in for I mean, it’s a scary world, as we all know, but I think next year, boy. I mean, it’s fascinating. It’s like a reality show, but it’s also real life. So unlike football, we got to pay attention.
Nestor Aparicio 17:54
Thank goodness we get escaped from that Mark Leibovitch would be back to covering the political beat, and what what is your pitch on big game for me to tell people if they buy your book and read your book, yeah, yeah, I got you right here, yep.
Nestor Aparicio 18:13
Always good to visit with my dude. Mark liebovich, the book is big game, and I will stand by that. Go look him up. We’re doing the Maryland crab cake tour in three places this week. Cost us on Thursday, we’ll be at gertrude’s at the BMA on Friday, and then on Monday, trying to work off the weight with our friends at Planet Fitness and Timonium. With the new location, I will have candy cane cash scratch offs to give. And we’ve had a lot of winners with our Raven scratch offs as well. Happy holidays to everybody out there, keeping it real, patriots and ravens this week, Luke’s and Owings mill. Stay with us. We’re Baltimore positive. You.
