The modern reality of the moving grift of NFL franchises a half a century later

They met as young sportswriters in early 1984 here at The News American right before the landscape of the NFL began changing. Longtime St. Louis sportswriter Jeff Gordon joins former colleague Nestor for a Mayflower journey on losing franchises and winning championships – and still losing franchises. From Colts to Cardinals to Rams to Ravens to Inglewood…

Nestor Aparicio and Jeff Gordon discussed the impact of franchise relocations on cities like Baltimore and St. Louis. Gordon reminisced about his time at the Baltimore News American and the departure of the Baltimore Colts and St. Louis Cardinals. They highlighted the role of ownership, such as Stan Kroenke’s influence on the Rams’ move to Los Angeles. The conversation also touched on the evolution of sports journalism, the influence of social media, and the challenges faced by college sports due to the NIL era. Aparicio shared his personal experiences and expressed concerns about the future of sports journalism and the impact of gambling on sports coverage.

Nestor Aparicio’s Introduction and Personal Updates

• Nestor Aparicio welcomes listeners to WNST 1570 Towson, Baltimore, and mentions the focus on NFL news, a new Orioles manager, and upcoming events like the Maryland crab cake tour.
• Nestor shares personal updates, including a colonoscopy he is having, thanks to advice from friends and colleagues, and promotes the Maryland lottery.
• He reminisces about his early days in journalism, mentioning old memorabilia and a sports first pin he has kept.
• Nestor introduces Jeff Gordon, a former colleague from his early journalism days, and reflects on their shared history in Baltimore.

Jeff Gordon’s Career Journey and Baltimore Memories

• Jeff Gordon recalls his early days as a sports writer in Baltimore, working with Nestor and other colleagues at the Baltimore News American.
• Nestor mentions the 50th anniversary of the demise of Sports First and the impact of the departure of the Baltimore Colts on the city.
• Jeff discusses the challenges faced by Bernie Nicholas, who moved to St. Louis and witnessed the departure of the St. Louis Cardinals to Arizona.
• They talk about the shared experiences of covering sports in Baltimore and St. Louis, including the impact of franchise relocations on the cities.

The Impact of Franchise Relocations on Cities

• Jeff Gordon explains the historical context of franchise relocations, including the departure of the Baltimore Colts and St. Louis Cardinals.
• They discuss the broader implications of franchise relocations on cities, including the emotional and economic impact on fans and communities.
• Nestor shares his personal memories of the Baltimore Colts and the impact of the team’s departure on the city.
• They reflect on the role of ownership in the success or failure of sports franchises, using examples like the Rams and Cardinals.

The Role of Ownership and the Future of Sports

• Jeff Gordon discusses the importance of ownership in the success of sports franchises, using examples like Stan Kroenke and the Rams.
• They talk about the challenges faced by cities in retaining sports franchises and the role of stadium upgrades in keeping teams.
• Nestor reflects on the changes in the sports industry, including the rise of social media and the impact of gambling on sports coverage.
• They discuss the future of sports journalism and the challenges of maintaining thoughtful, in-depth coverage in an increasingly fast-paced industry.

The Evolution of Sports Media and the Impact of Social Media

• Jeff Gordon and Nestor discuss the evolution of sports media, including the rise of social media and the impact on traditional journalism.
• They reflect on the changes in the sports industry, including the rise of team-controlled content and the decline of traditional media outlets.
• Nestor shares his concerns about the future of sports journalism and the challenges of maintaining thoughtful, in-depth coverage in an increasingly fast-paced industry.
• They discuss the impact of social media on sports coverage, including the rise of hot takes and the decline of long-form journalism.

The Impact of Gambling on Sports Coverage

• Nestor and Jeff Gordon discuss the impact of gambling on sports coverage, including the rise of in-game betting and the changes in sports journalism.
• They reflect on the challenges of maintaining thoughtful, in-depth coverage in an increasingly fast-paced industry.
• Jeff shares his concerns about the future of sports journalism and the challenges of maintaining quality coverage in an industry dominated by team-controlled content.
• They discuss the broader implications of gambling on sports coverage, including the rise of hot takes and the decline of long-form journalism.

The Future of College Sports and the NIL Era

• Nestor and Jeff Gordon discuss the future of college sports, including the impact of the NIL era on college athletics.
• They reflect on the challenges faced by college sports programs in maintaining continuity and building successful teams.
• Jeff shares his concerns about the future of college sports, including the impact of NIL on the recruitment and development of student-athletes.
• They discuss the broader implications of the NIL era on college sports, including the rise of professionalization and the decline of amateurism.

The Role of Boosters and the Financial Dynamics of College Sports

• Nestor and Jeff Gordon discuss the role of boosters in college sports and the financial dynamics of college athletics.
• They reflect on the challenges faced by college sports programs in maintaining financial stability and building successful teams.
• Jeff shares his concerns about the future of college sports, including the impact of boosters on the financial stability of programs.
• They discuss the broader implications of the financial dynamics of college sports, including the rise of professionalization and the decline of amateurism.

The Impact of Franchise Relocations on Cities and Fans

• Nestor and Jeff Gordon discuss the impact of franchise relocations on cities and fans, using examples like the Rams and Cardinals.
• They reflect on the emotional and economic impact of franchise relocations on communities and the role of ownership in the success or failure of sports franchises.
• Jeff shares his personal experiences covering sports in Baltimore and St. Louis, including the challenges faced by cities in retaining sports franchises.
• They discuss the broader implications of franchise relocations on cities and fans, including the impact on local economies and community identity.

The Role of Ownership in the Success of Sports Franchises

• Nestor and Jeff Gordon discuss the importance of ownership in the success of sports franchises, using examples like Stan Kroenke and the Rams.
• They reflect on the challenges faced by cities in retaining sports franchises and the role of stadium upgrades in keeping teams.
• Jeff shares his personal experiences covering sports in Baltimore and St. Louis, including the impact of ownership on the success of franchises.
• They discuss the broader implications of ownership on the success of sports franchises, including the impact on community identity and local economies.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

NFL journey, losing franchises, winning championships, Baltimore sports, St. Louis sports, franchise relocation, ownership issues, stadium upgrades, sports journalism, social media impact, gambling influence, college sports, NIL era, sports history, media evolution.

SPEAKERS

8

Jeff Gordon, Nestor Aparicio

Nestor Aparicio  00:01

Welcome home. We are W n s t am 1570 Towson, Baltimore. We are Baltimore, positive and positively watching all things NFL this week, as well as a new manager for the Orioles and Craig Albert as Luke will be on the scene for all that. Any breaking news you get it first on the W n s t tech service. Is it all brought to you by our friends at Google? At coal roofing and Gordian energy, and you can find out more at it. Baltimore positive also going to be doing the Maryland crab cake tour twice this week at Cocos on Wednesday, and then on Friday, we’re going to be at Pizza John’s at Essex. I will have scratch offs in the Maryland lottery to give away. And I have been chatting at length about this medical procedure I’m having, the men have that I’ve been avoiding for all these years. I’m 57 my thanks to GBMC for making some time for me and sending me a special milk shake over to drink later on in the month, as I’m having a colonoscopy, which I’ve had so many old friends of mine tell me I need to do this. So I don’t mean it. This is any disrespect to Jeff Gordon, who’s going to be my next guest that I’m promoting my colonoscopy, but I’m going to be doing it all month, because I’ve had so many of these hall of famers and dudes on telling me, hey, get checked. And I haven’t listened to anybody because I’m rock headed, and that’s probably with a great transition. Jeff Gordon knew me as a young lad from Dundalk in the winter, the cold, cold winter of 1984 here in Baltimore, Gordo, I bring with me video presents for you. I have old tear sheets and old, you know, the little tabloid we did at the at the sports first. But I have what I think is the only remaining sports first pin. As you can see, it’s about the size of, like the head of my nose. It’s very, very small. It’s meant for a little hat, but that was where we met on South Street in Lombard, at the all newly minted harbor place in Baltimore, Maryland. You were a young sports writer, and I was, well, I don’t know what i What the hell was I? Jeff,

Jeff Gordon  01:57

Oh, you were very young. You were very young and lots of energy. Nestor, so, yeah, it’s changed, huh? Times, good. Times, man, we had a blast.

Nestor Aparicio  02:08

Well, I meant to have you on when I did the reunion of the 50th anniversary of the demise of sports first, which was on September 21 1984 and I know that because my son was born on September 22 1984 so you don’t forget those kind of things. They don’t forget people like you and Bernie miklas and Bob Paston, who were in my life at that point, and then all of you when the news American and sports first and Hearst sort of threw in the towel in Baltimore and didn’t marry itself to Hearst the television station, which was always a little bit strange. All of you went on to a place in St Louis that, at that time, had football and baseball, and things changed. It was like you were chasing football teams at all of you, but I lost track of you for a period of time, but never really, because you were writing in the St Louis Post Dispatch, Bernie became a columnist. Tony La Russa was pretty instrumental that Kurt Warner and Vermeil guys came along and a franchise came along. I mean, what a pathway all of you had who went to St Louis, one of my favorite towns, and wrote about sports the last 50 years. Man,

8

Jeff Gordon  03:18

well, it was really tough on Bernie, because Bernie Nicholas, he leaves Baltimore. You know, we were all there for the departure of the Baltimore Colts. So he goes to St Louis, and there go the St Louis Cardinals, becoming the Arizona Cardinals, the grid birds, head for the desert. And so he, he had to get a chance to revisit that nightmare. Now, Bernie did briefly go over to Dallas at the morning news and work there, before coming back as a columnist in St Louis. So he he saw not one but two franchises leave. You know, I got there in time to see the Cardinals leave as well. So, you know, it’s just strange to see that happen. And then the two cities were bound together because they both got screwed, I think in the expansion process, right? I think both teams, both cities expected the NFL to undo the wrong of losing a franchise thanks to a bad owner, which happened to both cities. And instead, the the NFL was nervous about potential ownership groups and competition between potential owners and and neither city got tapped on the shoulder, so both cities went out and stole another team. So, you know, a lot of a lot of connections between Baltimore and St Louis

Nestor Aparicio  04:27

Well, and building stadia and getting screwed. And you know, the guy that took the Rams out of St Louis is from Missouri, or Missouri, as Sheryl Crow said last week when I was in Nashville listening to her just it’s been a twisted fate in many ways, for these cities, but Cleveland in I was in Nashville last week, and Houston and Allers and all of this moving around of teams, and the perception and perspective from St Louis versus Baltimore is that you are. Year, the night the Colts left town right. Like you have a recollection of that as a writer,

Jeff Gordon  05:04

absolutely going out there and watching it happen. And of course, you know, let us not forget about the great Gary Levine, who was on our staff. Now, Barry would go on to many things in the tabloid industry, the I went out of stakeout with Barry in Hollywood when he was the Hollywood bureau chief from Star Magazine, later became editor of the National Enquirer and got involved with that very explosive Tiger Woods story. But back then, Barry was an intrepid general assignment writer, and he actually just went in during the during the team’s pack up, and just, you know, poked around and, you know, talk to people, and just went, you know, just blew by security and did what Barry does, which you just got in on the inside of the other loadout. So I remember that vividly, the load by the way, I’ve

Nestor Aparicio  05:47

8

had him on several times, and all we’ve ever talked about is Elaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein and, you know, David pecker and Trump, like he’s been involved in at the highest levels of court, but like all sorts and written great books as well, I’ve never talked to him about that, so you just tipped me off to something? Gordon, yeah, he, he

Jeff Gordon  06:08

convinced me to do a bunch of things I might not normally would have normally avoided doing back when Sugar Ray Leonard was a big story back there from the area and having his phenomenal career. But he also had that career threatening eye injury, and his eye doctor was in Baltimore, Barry convinced me to pose as a patient, to go into the waiting room to get the an inside look at the Sugar Ray Leonard’s entourage coming and going from an eye appointment at a time when his career was in danger, right? This is the kind of stuff that the intrepid Barry Levine would do at the news. American, you know, don’t forget that Barry’s the guy that got the devil on Earth quote. And I was in the newsroom the day that Barry got a hold of Bob, er, say, his mom, and it got the lowdown on what a what a bum he was. And she had these comments about he’s a devil on Earth, which made for a very nice headline at the news. American, so Barry was, Barry was a unique character for us. Obviously, Bernie Nicholas was just a force of nature.

Nestor Aparicio  07:07

Was Bernie’s quote. I would have, I would have bet, I would have bet pappy’s barbecue and a TED Drew’s special concrete of frozen custard that that, that was Bernie that had that, no,

Jeff Gordon  07:22

and it might, you know, it might have been, because, you know, my memory fogs, right? So those guys were both, well, I must ask both of them, you know, I mean, it’s incredible what those guys would do so well, one of them got a hold of them on because the story broke. There was an AP story that broke on the wire that quoted his mom. And it’s like, because Bob had had, like, an auto accident or got shot at or something in Chicago, and we had no idea this woman existed. And back then, you could just look up somebody’s phone number, and there they were, right. So one of those intrepid News America types got a hold of the devil on Earth quote, which was just amazing. So that’s the kind of work that we did back then. And let’s not forget the great resig, who not only did the great caricatures of her say, but the actual paper of a shea Ursae, which we traveled with and partied with quite heavily,

8

Nestor Aparicio  08:09

and I have retrieved Minnie Bob from the exodus of Nacho mamas in Towson, Minnie Bob is sitting in the next room. And if I had a moment, I would bring Minnie Bob in Gordon is my guest. Jeff Gordon is a long time, four decade decorated, award winning sports writer in St Louis, Missouri. He was along with Ron wenn Tom Cousins and Stan Rappaport and Tom Gibbons and Bob Paston and Bernie miklas, a mentor to me at the news American and Bob Nestor and Molly Dunham Glassman and so many legends that I worked as before I even got to the Baltimore Sun at 86 but I was 1516, years old. My first night in the newsroom was in January of 84 so the Orioles had just won the World Series in October of 83 I was 15 years old, and then a month and a half later, the night we speak of, which was the Mayflower van. Night. You were present at the Mayflower vans, correct? You were there that night, right?

Jeff Gordon  09:10

Well, just watching, I guess for me, it would have been the wee morning hours watching the this finish up, like I say, Barry got in there, being buried, being buried, got in there, and, you know, just got in ahead of the ahead of the rest of the media, because that’s just kind of stuff he did. So, yeah, I was very, you know, and this was such a traumatic deal, because the, you know, this is a team that had the sort of connection with the fan base that the St Louis baseball Cardinals have here in Missouri. It’s just such a unique, you know, such a unique deal. I mean, it’s hard to describe to people outside the area, and maybe for some of the younger fans there in Baltimore that you may not know, just that relationship and how you know just generations of fans, and you know people growing up with their dad. And their grandfather following those teams, and the great John Steadman, you know, the chronicler of the great years. You know steady in his knowledge and his embrace of the franchise. You know all that it just was so ingrained in the culture of Baltimore. It was such a part of that city, it’s unthinkable that that franchise would land in the hands of somebody so irresponsible and in such a weird way as well, right? How he initially got the ownership so that whole story was amazing. I remember going back to Baltimore for the newspaper here in St Louis to do a story about the the city’s, you know, recovery from the departure, you know, the marching band that refused to quit marching, and that became a whole ESPN deal. And a young, young jeff gordon got a little FaceTime in that ESPN examination of that, that feature on the marching band, the band that would not stop marching in Baltimore, that’s just what Baltimore was, just so unique.

Nestor Aparicio  10:57

Well, I got my Baltimore Colts belt buckle from 1971 from my childhood that came off of the Sears and Roebuck catalog. And I also, I collect these Gordo so don’t think I’m a weirdo. I have the St Louis Cardinals one, also from 1971 still works very, very lovely buckle, orbit buckles. How the Cardinals departure, like you left Baltimore the paper went down in 86 or 8085 right and 86 you went to St Louis. And then this is the time where, like the baseball Cardinals have Whitey Herzog, you know, all the outfielders that can run, like just the Cardinals were really something on the baseball side, the football team was leaving and almost came to Baltimore, Mr. Bidwell, bring us your team. 98 rock made a song, and they were selling Stan. Rappaport has a Baltimore Cardinals sweatshirt that they were they were selling at the heck company that they were making band and the NFL property sent lawyers in the old deal. The Cardinals didn’t leave in like mayflowers, though, right? Like they you, but you covered that soon thereafter. You and Bernie and Bob Paston, who was really responsible for me and gave me a job when I was a kid and loved me, I could still hear pastins voice. I can’t say so much on the radio, because he cost a lot, but that’s pretty good past him, wasn’t it this? That’s bad,

Jeff Gordon  12:24

8

yeah, yeah, yeah. We it. We still do good invitations about because we had some, some guys end up in St Louis, and we all worked together up in St Joe, Missouri. That didn’t come to Baltimore, but we all worked in Missouri, and we all ended up in St Louis.

Nestor Aparicio  12:37

Like, Lou Grant, right? Like, literally, right. Like,

Jeff Gordon  12:40

she’s funny. She’s funny.

Nestor Aparicio  12:42

Pittsburgh accent, you know, yeah,

8

Jeff Gordon  12:45

yeah, no, he was and, you know, we got there, and I think Bernie authored a great series of stories the feudal franchise, talk about why the St Louis football cardinals were had fallen in such a rut of mediocrity. And it really just was a poorly run franchise, you know, Bill Bidwell was not an evil guy, like, like Irsay and, you know, but he was just hapless, you know, he just, he just sort of inherited this team, and he was a good guy. He was just hapless. Old money St Louis wanted no part of this guy. The stadium was, was you had to be replaced for football, the team didn’t really have a practice facility to practice on the Astro Turf that the old bush stadium. You know, it just was a bad situation where he couldn’t get anything done in St Louis, because he was just kind of on an outlier. He was, he’s he just inherited this team. He was socially awkward. He had some powerful people that backed him, but not enough, right? So he started shopping his team around. And, you know, he ended up in Arizona where they, you know, the Phoenix, and then Arizona Cardinals, and they were just going through a lot of the same misery they had here, until they were doing it 120

Nestor Aparicio  13:57

degrees instead, and they didn’t get a stadium

Jeff Gordon  13:59

for a long time. And finally, Michael Bidwell, who’s a very sharp operator, not unlike what Jimmy did, taking over for Bob, really got the franchise in the right place, right and so they got, they finally got out of the sun. They would roast out their fans would sit in that stadium. And there’s a reason why the Sun Devils played at night. Man, it’s hot in the desert, so they roasted out there in the sun. Didn’t get a stadium for a long time, but it all worked out eventually for the Cardinals, but St Louis then had to go try to steal the Rams, and that turned into a bit of a mess, because you just end up with a bad owner, which, you know, again, tied to Baltimore because it was rosenblooms widow that brought the team here. Of course, they had the franchise swap back in the day that stuck Baltimore with Earth. Say, so, so many connections, Nestor, between these cities.

Nestor Aparicio  14:44

8

I got the LA Rams, a buckle here too. Now they’re back. So, you know, it’s like they never left at all. Right? So Jeff Gordon is my guest. Gordo and I worked together in 1984 85 a little paper called sports first at the Baltimore news American anybody, old school called news page. Nice, paced, and you spent a life. And when I talked to John Eisenberg, who was another incredible mentor to me at the sun when I got there, all of you, you have no idea how grateful I am to you. All of you, I kiss all of your asses publicly, privately, I cry every time I see Jack Gibbons. I don’t cry when I see Marlo, but Musk art, usually he makes me cry. Ron winning would make me cry. Cousins too. But like there is a point for having spent a life in this and Eisenberg says, the golden era of sports writing, the glorious era of the St Louis Post Dispatch and the Cardinals and the greatest show on turf and covering politics and sports and stadiums and legend and Tony La Russa, and winning World Series and losing World Series, and going to Stanley Cups and having Wayne Gretzky come to town for a minute and like just all of that. And you’re a Mizzou journalism guy, right? That came at it that way, as a decorated guy. I’m worried about all of this, you know, like, just in a general sense, where young people come to me and say, I want to be, what do you want to be a sports radio guy? They no such thing. You want to be a sports writer. You want to be a columnist. You want they know, newspapers like, it’s really a weird thing to have had my life now at 57 you’re a couple, two, three years older than me, but like, I don’t even know what to make of it that I don’t wake up after a game and want to go read Mitch album or read Richard justice or read you or Bernie about after a game to get the kind of analysis that I think we were all trained and guys like you taught me about how to do it. I think I do it well because you all taught me how to do it well so many years ago. But I don’t know what sports has become where guys like me get locked out and I can’t even ask questions anymore, and it’s, I don’t recognize the industry part of it, especially with the gambling side of it coming in, it is a little different than the way we went about in the way we were trained. And I think the way you and I can get together for hours and hours and hours and talk about sports in a passionate, educated, informed way, have having lived our lives that way, young kids just want to bet on the game. Man. Like, literally,

Jeff Gordon  17:19

yeah, the whole world has changed like I wonder what our friend Mark Hyman, how he looks at it, because he went, he ended up landing over at the University of Maryland and working with a lot of aspiring young sports writers, right? But this world just keeps changing, and it started changing with social media, where getting Twitter follows and Twitter scoops became paramount, versus building, the crafting, the the sorts of the incredible stories that we were used to reading back in the day when journalism was a whole different a whole different beast. So yeah, I reminisce about those days all the time, and I do wonder where the world is going with the media, because it’s not only is it all about just, it’s gotten so frantic where, you know, it’s not just that people are worried about betting on the winner and loser and loser the game, and that’s where their focus is, but they’re betting on every play, right? So we’ve gone from this, you know, a world where we had these lot of contemplation about the big issues of sports, to viewers just watching it Minute to Minute, second to second, and wagering Minute to Minute, second to second, digesting all their information through social media and everything’s just screaming hot takes and scoops and, you know, just a blur, or back then, you know, you talk about, you know, a guy like Eisenberg, a very thoughtful writer, is the exact opposite of the world that we live in now, right? So he would be the, he would be the other end of it, the world we were seeing these days well.

Nestor Aparicio  18:49

And I think the thoughtfulness of all of it added to the allure of sports and the storytelling. You know, whether it’s John facinda and Steve Sable, you know, and Ed sable doing NFL film stuff, but I think it’s devolved now into, and I said this about like hardball shenanigans last week, with Lamar Jackson and the bears only getting a slap on the wrist because the NFL doesn’t want to indict itself in regard to moving a point spread five points, which would have had the FBI in the looking into the mafia If anybody moved the point spread five points the day before the game with a two time MVP quarterback. So we’re at a different point where the leagues and certainly Congress is not going to get involved in any of this and antitrust. And you know how the Expos became the Nationals, and how Angelo sort of screwed up baseball here since the time you left and we got a stadium built in all that. But these cities by the wayside, like St Louis, like Baltimore, where the infrastructure is built in, we’ve just given $1.2 billion now to these two stadia that are a generation old, really benefiting a couple of billionaire guys to just throw the media. Up into the corner, into the Little Kevin Byrne press box, and have the black wing premium seating behind home plate, or throw the band out from behind, you know, the field, so we could have the high five the players as they come on to the field. But really the media part of this and Gordo, I go back to when my late friend Steve sable came to Brian Billick after the Ravens won the Super Bowl, right after the greatest show on turf and the Rams had won in 99 with Kurt Warner, the Ravens won the next year, and sable wanted to do a reality show called Hard Knocks. And Billick had this cast of character, Shannon, sharp Tony, saragusa, Woodson, Ray Lewis, like all of these people involved, and they did it. And honestly, you go back and watch that, some of it, stage, some of it, you know, a little this and that. But like cutting players, live mics, all of that, everything all of these teams have done over the last 25 years now. Of that is in housing, team x.com bringing a bunch of pretty girls and pretty boys in to interview co workers, dominating press conferences and cutting scenes that I say are like the Hulk Hogan reality show where somebody gets in the shot in the hallway, they have to recut the scene of the draft pick coming in to sign the contract that’s brought to you by the clothing company, and they have their fits now, and the social media and all that that it’s, it’s a reality television show that’s created and controlled by them, like the WWE did with wrestling 30 years ago, where that is their content now it’s their television channel, and they’re only going to they’re going to show you Sugar Ray Leonard’s eye appointment, but They’re going to show from his point of view, you point of

Jeff Gordon  21:43

view. Yeah, that’s the world. I mean, we’re definitely racing that direction. Teams have gotten more sophisticated. They filled the vacuum as newspapers have started to go away. As a primary source of information is all these websites were so vibrant, covering sports, but now they all cut back, as everybody in the industry struggled to monetize content, content, the teams have moved in very, in most very sophisticated ways to fill the void. And also the athletes themselves have decided they’re going to create their own brand and tell their own stories, their own way. And you know, definitely, definitely has changed, and part of it’s due to the death of traditional media, and not being able to people, not being able to monetize the companies, not being able to monetize it, and to the and also just teams getting smarter about wanting to control the imaging and smooth over the rough parts. And you know, just you’re selling, it’s marketing. And instead of journalism, you’re just getting marketing, right? And so, yeah, it’s is so different than what it was. And to your point about now the inner you deal with the gambling part of the portion of it, and it’s such a big industry, and now you have teams controlling and filtering information, not always being 100% truthful about things, yeah, where does this, where does this all go, you know, and for the consumer. So a lot of the people growing up now wouldn’t really understand what it was like to dive into something like the National remember back in day how, what a glorious adventure. That was sort of like sports first on steroids for whole whole nation. What a all that, all that great, long form writing, you know, the superstars that were in that that’s all gone. And now we’d like to say you got team, Team presentation content and a lot of snippets, a lot of quick sound bites, and yeah, and so called analysis is just people yelling, you know, God bless screaming a Smith, because he’s a tremendous success. But, you know, he and cow herd and Bayless, come on. I mean, just yelling,

8

Nestor Aparicio  23:49

barely thought leadership, I will give you that right, you know, and look all

Jeff Gordon  23:53

credit to these guys are successful. Bayless was a brilliant writer back before he just became a young guy yelling at people. Von feinbaum was a, you know, an accomplished journalist before he just became a guy with hot takes, you know, for the SEC folks, you know. And Steven, Steven, a was, was a sports writer and columnist, and now he just has got this deal. He’s going to tell us how to run the country too, which, I don’t know how many things that one man can do and how many things can yell about, but apparently, he’s infatigable, indefatigable. You can’t you can’t shut him down.

Nestor Aparicio  24:23

Jeff Gordon is here. You can’t shut him down either. He is a longtime sports writer, columnist at the St Louis Post Dispatch. He’s now sub stacking, along with my buddy Bernie miklas, out there in St Louis. You still got a baseball team, hockey team, you know, Gordo. Last week, I went to Baltimore Business Journal and Sports Business Journal through event that stadium, $100 a throw I went down because I can’t get a press pass. I can’t sit in the office of Sashi brown or Katie Griggs, who run the Orioles and run the Ravens on the business side, to learn about where these $600 million investments go. Because it is they’re just they’re just no questions. And. And they have a speech, like a stump speech, almost like politically, where they say the same thing, like, like robots. And then the second presentation, the second panel, was about the n, i, L, and we had the Morgan and Towson, Dina from Morgan and Steve eigenbrot from Towson, along with some other folks talking about paying players College. You’re a Mizzou guy. St Louis is Washington University. St Louis the Billikens. I’ve seen Springsteen at that gym over there. Love that little gym over there, right by pappies. And I’m 57 I come at this honest from lefty drizzle and the UCLA the east, and always looking up the hill in the ACC as a football fan in Maryland, and understanding why Maryland and Duke in North Carolina, Maryland had to go to the big 10. And now we’re a generation into big 10, and they’re like the little engine of the big 10. They’ve never really won anything, accomplished anything, and the world has changed. Even with Under Armor money, even with Steve bishati money, there’s still Ohio State and Penn State, and like Alabama mentioned all that that is the most deconstructed thing that I can imagine. That if that were my primary thing, as my lifelong thing, that I loved old state U and covered state you. It’s hard enough with the changes of the NFL and the International part of it, and baseball being sort of this falling not on the backside of the game seven, we just, I mean, we had a great world series, but just in the diminished part of baseball, maybe not in St Louis, or places where it’s still sort of number one, but sports and the money, and where hockey is getting its money in your town, and where college sports is getting its money. College Sports is the most unrecognizable thing right now, and that is sort of the tectonic plates are changing. And it really is the feeder of all the pro sports too. They don’t have this thing in hand at all, right. Like college is really, really a mess, if it’s your primary beat.

Jeff Gordon  27:04

8

Well, the problem is that, you know, it was always a sham, trying to pretend these guys were, you know, amateur athletes, student athletes, when the industry was generating all that money and you’re paying coaches all that money. Well, one lawsuit after another proved that this is America, and you can’t just exploit these guys the way they were being exploited the major college football and basketball players in particular, and now, to a degree, we’re seeing that in baseball. So the athletes win their path, they win their way and and really, the colleges should have accepted unionization, because that would have been much more sane. Instead, they just opted for what is just a free for all by avoiding the unionization push the courts forced him into just a free for all, which is that you can’t in America, you can’t tell a kid that he can’t that he doesn’t own his name, image, likeness, that he can’t do a commercial for an auto dealer and get a car and some money. And you know, at Ohio State. This is an incident labor punishing guys for getting free tattoos at Ohio State. Now we’re to the point where guys are getting, you know, quarterbacks are getting four and $5 million to go play, play somewhere, because they can justify that cost. Teams are spending 10s of millions of dollars on payroll for the team. And, you know, it’s insane. Now, the thing that boggles my mind, Nestor, is that there are so many boosters out there with so much money that this industry, they’re the ones driving this. They will pay 10 million a year for a coach. They will pay 50 million to make a coach go away. They will bankroll a payroll of 20, 30 million for a football team. They will build a bigger and bigger stadium. I mean, it’s and they’re just these people have just run amok. Instead of one owner or a group of people owning a team, you’ve got a bunch of boosters throwing just gigantic money, millions ahead, millions of person into these pots to do all this. It’s complete madness. The realignment, the name, image, like this, the fact is completely unregulated. I mean, Congress, what’s Congress going to do? This

Nestor Aparicio  29:05

is America. I just think it’s less interesting, especially with basketball like the Terps are playing. It’s a completely different team than last year, and it’s going to be that way every year. And I just don’t know how that remains as interesting to people in the periphery, not to people that are sycophants. I get it, but I just feel like the air is out of the tires in so many ways, and especially for the small schools that the thing that struck me when I asked Steve eigenbrod on from Towson was, hey, we returned the player of the conference to our team. No other mid major did that. So in other words, we’re all it’s the minor leagues. You’re just going to get cherry picked for any good players that take a step down and play at a cop in a Towson, a Loyola, that kid’s gone in five minutes to somewhere else to get paid, go to Georgia Tech and. Going to make 50 grand, 100 million, whatever the number is. I mean, you and I were at the point the news American in the St Louis place, $2 an hour. We changed jobs, change cities, and you move your life and go like we’re talking about a lot of money for young people. And I think the part that that’s the unintended consequence is going to be the lack of interest from the public at large, that that’s going to be the real hardship for them is, how long will people stay interested in something that isn’t nearly as interesting as it used to be? Yeah,

Jeff Gordon  30:31

that’s a great question. I mean, people the old days of building a program, you followed a kid, you watched them emerge, and there was some continuity that, as you know, like I say in basketball, where teams just, you know, coaches will just hit the restart button bring an entirely different team. You know, it’s at some point, where does it settle, right? Where does it settle? How many schools can really keep doing this? Can keep operating this way? How long will it make sense? It’s, these are great questions, and yet, you know, right now, because, again, it’s just unregulated. The super rich are having their way with buying into all this, and the athletic directors and the coaches just have to play along. You know, I don’t see a change coming soon. The to me, the reckoning will be, then there’s going to be fewer and fewer college teams that are really operating this way, in a smaller and smaller group, where it really sort of whittles down and becomes like the NFL and the NBA, and then everybody else is operating at a different level. You know, it’s just, you know, it’s just where it just shrinks to the point where there’s, they’ve there’s only going to be a couple of football conferences left, and it’ll be like the AFC and the NFC and college basketball, maybe a little bigger, but, yeah, it’s and that’s frustrating, right? Because the guys that could go to a guy could go to Loyola and build a program and recruit high schools and the summers and just keep guys and be consistently successful and have a 15 or 20 year coaching career. I mean, it can’t happen now, because, again, you’re just constantly getting poached. You’re constantly you’re constantly getting, you know, that level of college basketball is getting ruined. And even at the highest level, a place like Maryland, is it ever going to be the what it

Nestor Aparicio  32:11

was? Well, the Majerus is and, you know, it’s St Louis with the Billikens with you, and the martelli’s in Philly, those kinds of programs. Jeff Gordon is my guest. He is man we I love having the smartest, bestest you know, the historians, the keepers of the stories, on the shows. Jeff is a longtime sports writer in St Louis. We work together at the Baltimore News America. We’ve kept a relationship forever. He’s been in and out of my life in so many ways. I think I’ve interviewed at the top of the TWA dome at various points at games and whatnot. But I do want to give you just a little bit of oxygen on this thing, because whenever I’ve had Howard balls are on, or, you know, I’ve heard Bob Costas speak to this, even Joe Buck in different ways, in your town in St Louis, to have had the Rams come in. And I think the world of Kurt Warner, and I’ve in life’s, you know, I’ve run into the Tory Holtz and and the Orlando paces, and obviously dick for meal and all of that. Um, I’ve got the Taj retails of Earth, say, and I befriended Jimmy, or say, before his death, he was always very good to me, and very like honest and magnet and normal to me at all of these owners meetings and stuff. I’ve seen the Bidwell family, you know, and I’ve seen Stan cronky. I was there the day that the whole thing went down, and the moves all happened with what they did out at SoFi stadium, and what was happening with the chargers and the raiders and all of that. But I know inherently, it’s sleazy, and I still carry the thoughts of my Houston Oilers and Dan pastorini and the early 70s and the things that I loved about football. I’ve attended 27 Super Bowls, that punk that you met on South Street, 1984 I have a radio station. I welcome the team in. I’ve written two books on the franchise. It’s made my life and living so much better that art modell moved the team here, but man at heart, as I’m moving toward the exiting the planet at 57 my life journey with the Colts as a kid and Bert Jones and John Zieman and the Mayflower vans, and watching all the other moving parts of what happened to my Allers and my cousins chargers in San Diego. And everybody who I know, who ever loved the chargers, the Rams thing in St Louis, sleazy in, sleazy out, kind of like the Ravens in the and the browns in the, you know, all of it, um, and then the gambling part and where it is. But what happened to St Louis? I want tell me the story, like, I met you in a bar and like, how that how sleazy all of that was for cronky to really just rip the guts out of the team in not a dissimilar way to what Earth say did, and maybe that it was predetermined so far in advance in Hollywood Park every time I fly in. To LAX, I see it, and I’m like, You guys had a he had a death wish for St Louis from the beginning, and you chronicled it, but it was that was written in stone so far in advance, the fix was in for St Louis to get screwed. Jeff, right. Yeah.

8

Jeff Gordon  35:18

I think when you look at the whole picture, I always start from the standpoint of, you know, you stole the St Louis stole the team. The only reason that the Rams left LA where they belonged was that you had a bad owner. And Georgia frontier was very much like Bill Bidwell in terms of not being able to get things done because the people out there didn’t take her seriously. She couldn’t play at the level she needed to play at, from a business standpoint, to get done what you needed to get done out there. So St Louis, out of desperation, stole a franchise, right? And Stan, who you know is a Missourian, does have an affinity for the state, got involved because, originally, because of his loyalty to the state, plus he had access to all the capital in the world through his wife and his own success subsequently in the real estate business, with no small help from the whole Walmart empire. But so Stan was, initially was a hero for providing capital to get that done. Where it all started to go bad for St Louis was shot. Khan would have been a phenomenal owner. He would have kept the team in St Louis. He had, he had the money to do it. He he made a bid for it, and Stan, at the last second, exercised his option as a part owner of the team to take total control. He waited to the last second to do so, and when he got his, when he did so, you had to think at that point he had in mind to return the franchise to LA, and it makes sense on every level for that to happen. You know, when you if you’re dispassionate, you step back and say, of course, that was a smarter move. Now, what happened here was the the St Louis could have kept the team for a while by simply upgrading the stadium, thanks to the lease in place. They could have made upgrades to the stadium, and he could have kept the team here through the bulk of this decade. Whether that would have, you know, changed the long term plan, I don’t think so. But they could have kept the team. The people at the time said, Well, you know, they basically dared stand to leave. The people who ran, oversaw the stadium and the convention center dared him to leave. They thought was Stan’s asked to upgrade the stadium was excessive. It was not. It was actually pretty modest compared to what subsequently happened in Indy, to keep the, you know, to keep the Colts happy, so with the new stadium there, so the Rams made a very reasonable ask to have the stadium upgraded. The city shut it down. It dared him to leave, and he did. Now, the bad part was this leasing part came when they just when they hired, you know, Fisher to coach the team Jeff, one of the reasons they wanted to hire him was he, he’d been a coach of a franchise that moved it was already in play. When they hired Jeff Fisher’s coach, it was going to happen. And then they were not going to try to win. They’re going to try to drive down attendance. They were going to just pave the way to leave. And so everything that happened after that was essentially tanking, you know, not making the effort to win, planning them to leave. All of that, I think, just unfolded in the most unfortunate fashion. You know, it was just years in the making at that point. But I just go back to, you know, once, once Stan crockey took full ownership of the team and knocked out shot county went down and took care of the Jacksonville situation. It really made that thing work for the NFL. You know, it was St Louis was doomed. But you know what? St Louis stole the team in the first place? And that’s hard for me, for fans to accept that, but that’s reality, right? Like you said, sleazy at the start, sleazy at the end.

Nestor Aparicio  38:41

Does St Louis miss the team?

Jeff Gordon  38:44

Oh yeah. There’s no question. When you look at the outside support that St Louis has thrown behind the the battle hawks and the various incarnations of spring football, the battle hawks have drawn, you know, stupidly well for for the league that it is playing in that dome. They, you know, they brought some of that energy back, because people still like football. And just as they like football when Bill Bidwell was terrible as an owner, they liked that the Rams, even when the Rams had terrible ownerships. So it’s a pretty good football town to has been doomed by two bad owners, right? Really? And then, you know what happened with the greatest show on turf was, was a bit of a fluke. You know, a lot of things came together. And Vermeil worked magic. Warner was a magical figure. They had Hall of Fame talent like Falk and Holt and Bruce, and it all came together for a couple years. And but, you know what? Still didn’t they bad ownership talk about this whole thing between fans and cities and franchises, you got to have great ownership, Nestor, you lived with the Angelo family. I mean, all that stuff with baseball, though, where that franchise was was when it had great ownership versus where it went when it was bad ownership. You know, city you can’t pick your owner. If cities could pick their. Owner, man, we wouldn’t be talking about these things.

Nestor Aparicio  40:02

8

Well, you know, our new owner here made a bobblehead of himself to start things, so I know it’s going to go well. And they finished in last place, and the tenants is down a half a million, and they’re taking no questions from guys like me. Jeff Gordon is here. He remembers real journalism, because he was a real journalist in many, many years at the St Louis Post Dispatch. But my friend and a colleague and mentor at the Baltimore news American many, many years ago, when he had incredible patience with me, and I know you want one of those crab melts and an ice cold Michelob Ultra at Burks after last deadline, right in Baltimore, you have good memories of Baltimore,

Jeff Gordon  40:39

right? Oh, absolutely, you know that, like that crab stuffed fish there we get that at Berks. That was my go to meal there, perks, absolutely, you know, and the crab cakes, obviously, back with Phillips was in the the smaller, smaller setting there on the Inner Harbor, just, you know, just going someplace and learning how to eat crabs, you know, challenge. And, you know, getting your hands all covered in in seasoning, and your, you know, your bib and your face, and you just dive right in, right? And you just don’t get that. I mean, it’s in such a I’ll always go back to enjoying the city, because guy like Bernie Nicholas enjoyed the city, a guy like Barry Levine enjoyed the city and the neighborhoods. You know, your old neighbor, your old neighborhood, the proud Dundalk, and you go up all every, everywhere you would go. Little Italy was fabulous, you know, covering coach Wade and the pride on the east side with that, the high school team that was so amazing. And the work Molly did covering that team, you know, I mean, just all of it was, it’s just so such a great area. It was such a great time. Then you throw in all the natural the parks, and you know, the access to the bay and the ocean. Love Baltimore, and you love the people of Baltimore. So special, special time for me, I

Nestor Aparicio  41:54

feel the same way about the hill and lacledes Landing and, you know, Forest Park and all that good stuff. Jeff Gordon is out in St Louis, Missouri, where they have delicious frozen custard and a decent baseball team from time to time. So and the Orioles actually play out in St Louis to get out and get up into the arch. Always good to visit with you. It’s been too long, and I didn’t know where this conversation was going, but history Baltimore, St Louis, it was perfect Gordo. So thanks for coming on, brother.

Jeff Gordon  42:20

Oh, it was a pleasure, man. And you know the big dog, Bernie Nicholas and I, we’ve enjoyed our time in Saint Louis, but he’s, of course, a native of Baltimore, and so he his love is much deeper than mine, but my short time there was amazing. So always good to see you. And sorry I couldn’t get out there for the reunion a year ago. But if you guys ever do another get together. I’ll try to make my way east.

8

Nestor Aparicio  42:42

Well, give my love to Bernie and tell him to, please come on and give me an hour of his time and tell me some old Baltimore blast stories as well as and we can settle it. I’ll get, I’ll get a Barry on. We can settle who actually talked to her, say, his mother, and

Jeff Gordon  42:56

when he got older, devil incarnate. Well, I’ve been Bernie. You know, my memories cloud back. I do remember the parties, though, and playing. These boots are made for walking over and over again by Barbra Streisand. For some reason we got stuck

Nestor Aparicio  43:10

on Barbra Streisand Frank Sinatra’s daughter, Nancy Nancy Nancy

Jeff Gordon  43:15

8

Nancy Sinatra, right. So, boom, boom, boom, over and over again.

Nestor Aparicio  43:22

Yeah, yeah. That little, that little apartment right off Chase street, about five blocks away from the Baltimore Sun. I know exactly where you’re talking about. Jeff Gordon. I wore Bernie Nicholas’s shoe home that night. It’s a long story. He got it back. He got it back. It’s true. You know? It’s true. Oh, the 80s. I remember some of the things about it. I didn’t even do drugs back then. It’s crazy. We are W, N, S, T am 1570 Towson, Baltimore. We never stopped telling old sports stories with my old dogs like Jeff Gordon or Baltimore positive. Stay with us.