There will be no place for Brandon Hyde to hide if this continues. Sure, he didn’t buy the groceries (or the pitching) but the manager is usually the first one to go when a promising baseball team disappoints like the in-progress collapse of the 2025 Baltimore Orioles. Or, maybe it’s just a hitting coach or two? But in-season firings certainly feel immigrant after another Birds’ sweep in Minnesota where the bats remained painfully silent.
Nestor Aparicio and Luke Jones discuss the Baltimore Orioles’ dismal 13-23 start, with Luke expressing frustration over the team’s poor performance in both pitching and hitting. They highlight the team’s struggles with runners in scoring position, noting a 2-13 record in such situations. Luke suggests potential changes, including the possibility of firing manager Brandon Hyde and hitting coaches. They also discuss the impact of injuries and the need for a new strategy to improve the team’s performance, emphasizing the importance of player development and potential roster changes for the 2026 season.
Luke Jones and Nestor discuss …ling Orioles headed to Anaheim
Fri, May 09, 2025 9:09AM • 49:17
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Orioles, failing season, pitching problems, hitting issues, fan frustration, Brandon Hyde, Mike Elias, player development, rebuild, ownership, injuries, young players, coaching changes, offseason moves, future plans.
8
SPEAKERS
Luke Jones, Nestor Aparicio
Nestor Aparicio 00:01
Welcome home. We are W, N, S, T. Am 1570 Towson, Baltimore. We are Baltimore. Positive. Happy weekend, everyone. We had a Happy Wednesday. We were at the silver spring mining. Excuse me, we were at red brick station. I’ve been to Silver Spring mining too. Hey, Carrie, I’m coming up to see you too. It’s hockey season. Maybe it’s caps and Maple Leafs. Wouldn’t that be something we had to Back to the Future scratch offs. When we were at red brick station in White Marsh, I spent way too much time in White Marsh. Bill blocker joined us with his beautiful daughter, Kade. We also had Nick Stewart running for Baltimore County Executive. We hear that all weekend long here, and next weekend, I’ll be doing not just Preakness without sovereignty. No Triple Crown around here this week. We’ll have some Preakness coverage next week, but we’ll be at the Maryland party in Las Vegas, Nevada, at the Encore pool, talking to business and just Baltimore leaders. Just, quite frankly, it’s a big event. We’ll be out there for that next weekend. Luke will be here monitoring all things, all real baseball. I’m done beating them up. I’m just going to give you the floor and let you play the bad guy here there. They have found creative ways to lose man and not hitting the ball. I’m now on Team Luke. I’m off the team Nestor. I’m on Team Luke. The hitting is the problem? Luke,
Luke Jones 01:21
well, no, the pitching is a problem too. It’s just, I’ve said this, and I’m at the point where I’m tired of having my blood pressure go up in the midst of these segments, not not towards you, but just at the state of affairs. When you
Nestor Aparicio 01:36
8have a baseball team get out on me. They’ve been doing that for decades around here. But
Luke Jones 01:40
when you have a baseball team that’s 13 and 23 and sinking like like a rock, I mean, it’s just this feels just very, very broken at this point in time. And I know that there wasn’t a whole lot of happiness about the off season. I know there wasn’t, certainly the same level of optimism going into this year than there was last year. But everyone, anyone who said that they saw this coming, is lying. I mean this, not saying the team, you know, regressing, not saying the team missing the playoffs, but this talking about them being on pace to lose 100 games this bad. No one saw it being this bad. So, man,
Nestor Aparicio 02:27
if you bet the under out in Vegas, yeah.
Luke Jones 02:29
I mean, Vegas, Vegas certainly, like the Orioles still, you know, even after the off season, being what it was, under was 8889 most places, exactly. I mean, that’s what we’re talking about here, not 66 or something, you know, like what we were talking about during the rebuild years. But, I mean, this is just what we saw on Thursday. First of all, let’s start with the positive. We are Baltimore positive. After all, Dean Kramer pitches butt off. I mean, he pitched really, really well. I mean, you could certainly ask, why didn’t you send them back out there for the eighth inning, even with the bottom of the order starting that inning. But, I mean, they did. They didn’t score runs. They didn’t score they hit the ball in the sense that they had opportunities. I mean, they had 10 hits. They had guys on base just about every inning, through what the second through what the sixth inning. I guess it was where they racked up all these runners in scoring position opportunities, and they went two for 13. One of those hits resulted in a man thrown out at the plate, which still kind of thought he might have been safe, but maybe not. I mean, obviously New
8Nestor Aparicio 03:33
Year, I don’t know how they get the replays wrong. I mean, when they called Holiday out of second base on that steal the other day, I’m like, yeah, how do you Where was that?
Luke Jones 03:41
I will say this was with some of those. And obviously we’re talking about a detail that’s not relevant to the big picture, but I will say, with some of those, like the one angle, I thought for sure he was safe at the plate, but then the angle that they showed that was kind of almost from the third base coaching box perspective. I looked at the angle, I’m like, okay, maybe he did get the tag in right before he touched the plate, but that just speaks to how things have gone for them. As we’ve said, they’ve also been unlucky on top of everything that’s just been playing bad, right, injuries and and things of that nature. But I mean, you go two for 13 with runners in scoring position. It’s you saw, we’ve talked a lot about the body language. We’ve talked a lot about, you know, that looking like they’ve been defeated. That was painful on Thursday. I mean, you saw Heston kerstad, I mean, just with awful at bats, and you saw the frustration on his face. To his face, to his credit, he talked to the media after the game, you know, there, there are certain individuals in that clubhouse that have been scarce post game, you know. And I’ve seen that in previous generations, or else too, sure, you know, I haven’t seen gunner Henderson and the clubhouse as frequently as I used to. But everybody’s a
Nestor Aparicio 05:01
good winner. Luke, sure everybody Mark, Mark Andrews is out there when he’s winning, you know what I mean? But that’s where I learned the most about people. But I losing,
Luke Jones 05:10
8but I think just seeing the level of frustration, I mean that. I mean it was in plain sight after those at bats, during those at bat swinging at bad pitches, poor swing decisions, not commanding the strike zone, all of that. I mean, it’s just, where do you go from here? And I think at this point in time, I mean, I’ll say this just as an observation. This isn’t a commentary. It’s an observation. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen Orioles fans as angry as they are right now, and that is something that I completely understand. I mean, we’re talking about two generations of lousy baseball in this town over the last 40 years, saved for a handful of years of respite and good baseball, but very fleeting periods of time. 9697 the Buck show alter Dan Duquette era, and two years of of the mike Elias era. And other than that, I mean, nothing to write home about. So fans who sat through this rebuild have every right to be furious and frustrated and upset and ticked off, and they want to pound a flash, and I’m guessing they’re going to get it at some point here in the in the near future, what exactly it’s going to be? If it’s going to be Brandon Hyde, it’s going to be the hitting coaches, at the very least,
Nestor Aparicio 06:28
gonna fix the pitching well and well, and that’s where, and
Luke Jones 06:30
that’s where you need to start looking at this differently. If you’re Mike Elias, assuming Mike Elias isn’t going to lose his job, certainly I’m not expecting that in season,
Nestor Aparicio 06:39
dude. I’m telling you right now, this is a new owner. I’m just gonna continue to throw this out that he didn’t hire any of these people. Who knows I
8Luke Jones 06:46
look all bets are off once you but you’re not gonna see a general manager fired in May or June, right? I mean that that’s almost always a move that’s September or this after the season. So viewing it through that lens, understanding there’s an unknown to that element of it. But if you’re Mike Elias, you run baseball ops. You run baseball ops, until David Rubenstein and the rest of the ownership group tells you that you don’t anymore. So you have to start looking at this through the lens of, how do you fix this? And I don’t necessarily mean, how do you fix this for the rest of 2025 because you’re already at a point now, to just win 86 games, I think you have to play at a 94 win base the rest of the year to your point. I don’t think the pitching will be good enough to remotely do that. It’s why I didn’t pick him to win 94 games to begin the season. You know that was even with healthy Zach Effen, who is supposed to pitch on Sunday, that was with an assumption that Grayson Rodriguez was going to be back, you know, somewhat sooner than later, which
Nestor Aparicio 07:49
he came back right now would be soon, and it wouldn’t be soon enough, yeah, sure, sure.
Luke Jones 07:54
And that’s, and that’s acknowledging, you know, Kyle radish could be in play in August and September, same with Tyler wells. So for me, I’m trying to look at this more practically speaking. And that’s not to say that if Brandon hides let go at some point between now and Memorial Day, then so be it. Right? I mean, everything about this team right now is not providing a solution, right? Do I think this is all Brandon Hyde’s fault. Hardly, far from it. But do I think Brandon Hyde is the brilliant tactician, slash, motivator, slash next, you know,
Nestor Aparicio 08:30
8Earl Weaver, incarnate, player, whisperer of young players. I mean, do
Luke Jones 08:35
I think he’s that? No, do I think that that the Oriole, that the Orioles can’t find another manager that would be really good moving forward. No, I say this all the time. I i I constantly reject the idea that there’s one right guy for any of these jobs. I think there’s a select group that you have to find. You could certainly find the wrong one, but I think there are plenty of right guys out there. So I know that fans are are fixated on that part of this right now, and I understand it someone, even the team, this team, feels like it’s waiting for something to happen, right? Whether it’s the manager being fired, coaches being fired, players getting sent to trip away, uh, players being DFA, right? Yeah.
Nestor Aparicio 09:17
I mean, I’m reading Twitter too. None of what makes any sense to me, if I’m David Rubenstein, and I’m trying to figure out what David Rubenstein is going to do, not with Mike Elias. Mike Elias has already done everything he can do. Brandon, he can do right? Like I don’t agree with they’re trying hard. I don’t agree with
Luke Jones 09:35
that because Mike Elias is in charge. Brandon Hyde doesn’t answer to David Ruben. It’s not like the Ravens hierarchy. The Ravens have general manager, head coach, they both answer to the owner. The Orioles don’t have that structure. Mike Elias hired Brandon Hyde. Brandon Hyde answers to Mike Elias, so I hear what you’re saying. I’m not sure what David Rubenstein is going to do in season. Now, come. In the off season come September, let’s say if this team is losing 100 games, then, then that’s a way different discussion,
8Nestor Aparicio 10:08
by the way. Little Raskin this week said, Well, that’s what bad owners do. They listen to their fans in these times. They you, they they read the internet too much and start firing some of that. Sure. Yeah. I mean, this guy’s new, and I don’t know what he’s gonna do. I really don’t know what he i This is a complete wild card. I just know he could walk away from this as the billionaire guy, which he’s done many times, being a billionaire, wins and losses and hurting people’s feelings. And, you know, managing however he manages himself and manages his money. I know how he’s managed me. I know how the people around him have managed me. I haven’t, I haven’t dug it so like we’ll see. And for you to say there’s a structure, I don’t know if they know what their structure is yet. Greg Bader still running around there, you know, I don’t know if they know what their structure is. At this point, it’s enough to say Rubenstein’s on the phone with Mike Elias, and Mike says, well, let’s but well, because that’s what they do, they fire the manager to save their job, right? The manager says, no, no, no, it’s the heading coach. Let’s save my job. That’s how this that’s what happens when this happens and these people aren’t friends, they don’t know each other, you know? I mean, they’ve been here a year. They’re figuring it out. This is a Rubenstein question, as much as it’s an Elias question for me, because guess what? I’ve been here a long time. Luke Rubinstein is going to survive them all. You know? He’ll be here when neither one of these guys are here, because they’re not his guys. And I kind of learned that the hard way with Bucha, who fell in with Ozzy Newsome and certainly Eric da Costa, but did not with Brian Billick at all.
Luke Jones 11:47
Yeah, yeah. And that’s a fair point. But again, I’m not, I’m not sure what David Rubenstein is doing on May 9 or may 20, or that he should do what he
Nestor Aparicio 11:57
I don’t exactly so that’s prepared for this season. How can they be prepared? Sure, no question, no question. So you don’t prepare for failure, you prepare for success.
Luke Jones 12:07
8But that’s why I am going to like Elias, because don’t otherwise, until we learn otherwise, he is in charge of baseball operations under the old ownership group, and we’ve seen no indication that David Rubenstein is remotely hands on as it pertains to baseball operations. And I’m not saying he should be right. I mean, I don’t, you know. I don’t think you want Peter Angelo circa 1999 as far as your dynamic with your owner in your front office. So I think
Nestor Aparicio 12:34
you’re going to get it either way, because he’s got a big investment. Things are falling apart here, and he’s going to feel like it’s, it’s his role to roll his sleeves up for in some way, whatever that is. Well, I think
Luke Jones 12:45
that’s where we have to go back to, if you’re Mike Elias. I’m not sure that the the objective, even at this point, is salvaging 2025 I think the objective is you’ve got to get your young position players back on track. Adley rutschman. I mean, this has been almost a calendar year now where this guy is painfully ordinary at best. I mean, he was worse than that in the second half last year. Gunner Henderson looked like, arguably the MVP of the league. The first half of last year was good, but unspectacular the second half of last year, and has been ordinary so far this year. Of all their young core position players, there’s one guy trending up right now, and it’s Jackson holiday. And let’s be clear, it’s not like Jackson holidays playing like a an MVP. He’s playing well, but he’s not playing extraordinary. So right off the bat, I’m looking at this almost like when you’re back at the at the beginning of the rebuild, in terms of what’s your vision? How are you building this roster? What do you value in terms of what you’re going to build to be the strengths of your club? And it was always supposed to be offense, right? We know that. That’s why they’ve drafted college hitters. And you know, with the exceptions of guys like gunner Henderson and Jackson holiday who were high school kids but still shortstop position players hitters. So I’m starting right off the bat. How do I get these guys back on track? Do we need a new manager? Do we need a new hitting coach? Do we need both? Do we need a sports psychologist at this point? Because it just feels like these guys and look the manager and the coaching staff, that’s part of what they do. So that’s where I look at this thing and say, if Brandon high doesn’t know how to get the best out out of these young players that are so allegedly so talented, if Cody, as she and the other hitting coaches, don’t know how to get the best out of these young players, if our player development needs to be revamped because our offense has taken a turn since late June of last year and is only getting worse, not getting better. Then I need to get to work on fixing all of those things, and if that means i i somehow find a way to salvage 2025 to the point where this team can get back. In the race in the second half of the season and and be at least semi relevant, like, say, in the way they were in 2022 I don’t think anyone really bought that they were going to make the playoffs. But go back and look in the wild at the wild card standings in September of 22 they were in it. They were in it. Mathematically. They weren’t a favorite, and they came up short. But if you can do that in the process for the rest of 25 great. But for me, this is now about 2026 and moving forward. And what do you do? Because the the answer is not remotely, oh, you’ve got to rebuild again. If Michael ice would tell you that, then the first thing I would say is ownership is, I would say, buy, you know, like, that’s, that’s not it, that’s not an option. You know, you can’t be thinking in those terms yet. I don’t, I don’t think Elias is thinking in those terms, because he knows that too. He knows he’s not going to get another multi year rebuild or anything like that, nor should he. So what can you do beginning today? And you know, looking at, you know, they’re playing in Anaheim this weekend, we’ll see what happens. You know, if you win two out of three, does anyone really feel that much better about the state of affairs, even if you sweep the angels, does anyone really feel better about the state of affairs? Not really. So I think it is interesting to see what happens when they come home. And you know, we’re talking about the off day on Monday, and what changes, if any, are made at that point in time. You know, fans want to pound the flash. I mean, I think the majority of this fan base at this point would would say that Brandon Hyde should be gone. You know, I’ve already said to you, I’m not going to argue against that premise, but you know, to me, at the very least, I don’t know how you’re not looking at your hitting coaches, seeing that the Texas Rangers, who are a couple years removed from a World Series, and they fired their hitting coach. Pirates fired their manager this week. I don’t think anyone should be taking cues for the Pittsburgh Pirates, but sure, yeah. I mean, it speaks to, I’m not sure you can sit here and just say it’s early anymore, right? Because they’ve buried themselves. I mean, you’re at a point, you know, in the from a math standpoint, I get it like people will say, if you’re trying to be as optimistic as you can, you say, well, they’re four and a half months to go, Luke. But the reality is, when you’re 13 and 23 just to get to 86 and 76 so we’re talking 10 games over 500 which may or may not be good enough for the final wild card spot. I mean, they’ve got to play like a 94 win team the rest of the way, you know what, when you’ve got to go 73 and 53 from this point on, just to get to 86 wins. So I mean, they buried themselves. And I don’t think anyone thinks that, even if they’re pitching, which gets healthier with Zach Eflin, with Kittredge in the bullpen, with, I don’t know, let’s say of Grayson, Rodriguez, Kyle, Bradish and Tyler wells, let’s say, let’s be optimistic. Let’s say two of them contribute in the second half of the season. That’s that that would be optimistic. Is that going to be enough? I mean, are they going to win enough games until that point in time that it’s going to matter? So that’s again, where you start looking at this thing, that look at the this thing, and say, What can we do to best position ourselves for 2026 what can we do the best position ourselves for this coming off season? What needs to change? What needs to change on the coaching front, what needs to change on the front office front, what needs to change on up development, scouting standpoint, who needs to play? Who needs to be shipped out of here? If we’re calling a spade a spade, you know, I would assume we’re going to see COVID Mayo sent back down here over the next couple days because Tyler O’Neill and Jordan westberger are on the way back. But, you know, I kind of look at the current lineup and look, everyone’s struggling. I’m not trying to scapegoat one or two or three guys, because everyone’s struggled, other than Ryan O’Hearn and Cedric Mullins, until the last couple of weeks, where Mullins is tailed off, but still having a really good season overall. But I don’t know Nestor, I look at someone like Ryan mountcastle, go look at his number. Since last July, you know, Mount Castle is getting closer and closer to free agency, and I’m not other than good defense at first base. I’m not sure what he’s really giving you at this point in time. That’s not to say I’m handing Coby Mayo the starting job long term, no questions asked, but the rest of this year, and I’m not saying right now, this might be more of a second half of the season thing. And I don’t know if some team wants to give you pitch a pitcher who’s controlled beyond this season and something like that, then maybe use COVID Mayo for that. If not, you need to play Kobe Mayo because Ryan mount Castle is not doing the job anymore, and it hasn’t been doing the job for quite some time. Certainly shouldn’t be in the cleanup spot. So there’s just, and I’m not, I’m I’m not thick. Sating on that. I’m using that as an example where you almost have a mindset where for the rest of the season, you kind of get back into the mode that you were when you were still rebuilding. Because at this point, Ryan mountcastle is a non tender kind of guy. I mean, that’s how he’s played this year. So even if he gets back on track, does he carry the kind of value that you’re going to get anything in a trade. Well,
Nestor Aparicio 20:23
you’re also asking, Where are the at bats? Right? Exactly. So, so that, but, but that’s where. But Mayo’s got to hit the ball to take that job, I understand. But he also has to play to take that job, right? I don’t, I’m not sure. In other words, if somebody’s going to hit 212 you’d rather, I’d rather be COVID Mayo at this point. Yeah. And again, that especially because you can’t win because, and that’s not right,
8Luke Jones 20:42
and that’s not me saying this right now, like next week. That’s more of a July next month, when you’re July, games under five August, September kind of thing. And that’s also assuming Ryan malcastle continues to perform like this. And
Nestor Aparicio 20:57
let me not make a joke here, but let me just say this out loud, if they play 500 ball the next month, that would feel miraculous to me. That would keep them 10 games under 500 sure
Luke Jones 21:07
that that’s what I’m saying. I mean, you can,
Nestor Aparicio 21:10
8yes, if they play five over 500 they go 25 and 20 before the all star break. I wouldn’t take it to the all star but take it to the end of June. They go to 25 and 20, there’s still five games under 500
Luke Jones 21:23
which you know, maybe you’re a little more optimistic. And look, we know the American League as a whole is not very good. But again, how well are you? How much of a role are you going to be able to go on when you’re pitching? Is what it is, coupled with you’re hitting that. Let’s just it’s not underperforming anymore. It’s not underwhelming. Was bad. It’s bad. It’s been bad, right? I mean, it’s, it’s been a bottom 10 Chicago, giving
Nestor Aparicio 21:47
him a chance to win. Effluent might give him a chance to win when he comes back this week. You know, I don’t know about Gibson, and I certainly feel like Morton, we’re just, I mean, we’re being silly with those guys. And I feel the same way about povidge and these other guys, thinking that every fifth day they’re going to give you a chance to win. Hey, dude, I just put Kramer in there. And, you know, I don’t trust him, sure, right?
Luke Jones 22:07
And, but, but that, and this is where, if you’re Mike Elias, you’re looking at what the path was, what the plan was for this team to contend and be good. It’s kind of what you just laid out, like even Dean Kramer, you’d say, okay, Dean Kramer is not going to give us a three two era, but we think it’ll be around four, or maybe a hair over four, but we think we’re going to have an offense that’s going to average somewhere in the neighborhood of five runs per game. Might not be exactly that, but, you know, go look at the best offenses in baseball right now, the Cubs and the Yankees and tigers, they’re all averaging, you know, five and a half runs a game. You know, the even if you’re say, like the Phillies, they’re at four nine. You know, the Red Sox are at four nine. So the Orioles were expected to be in that territory. So if you’re allowing just over four runs a game, or something along those lines, but you’re scoring 4.8 4.95 runs per game. That’s going to equate to still winning more games than you lose, right? And still being a formidable team, kind of where the Red Sox are, right? Yeah, so, but, but that hasn’t happened. So that’s where I again, I go back to for me, this isn’t about acting, because I’m mad. Fans are mad, and understandably so, right? I understand fans are ticked off. You know? I think you can tell I’ve been ticked off watching what we’ve seen, because it’s just been bad, not entertaining baseball. But I think at the same time, if you’re Mike Elias, you’ve got to look at this practically speaking, and saying, Okay, we’re we’re 13 and 23 and we’re going nowhere fast, and the math would tell you that our playoff odds are pretty slim at this point in time. I mean, that’s just the truth. That doesn’t mean that we’re tearing everything down rebuilding, but we need to start looking at this with a big picture site in mind, in terms of, how do we fix this? How do we get this back on track? I mean, unless, unless you just think all the position, young position core players are fraudulent in terms of their ability, then, then they are then they are screwed. You know, then you are talking about that. But I don’t think we’re there yet, certainly, Well,
8Nestor Aparicio 24:17
we’re certainly not talking about trading Jackson holiday for Garrett crochet this year? No,
Luke Jones 24:21
no. So you have to look at this in terms of, how are you getting these guys back on track? And again, what’s Brandon Hyde doing to get the most out of these players? Doesn’t look like whatever he’s trying to do. And it’s not to say he’s not trying. It’s not to say it’s his fault even. But this is where you start looking, okay, we have all these problems, we need to start identifying the solutions. And we haven’t seen enough evidence going back to last July that Brandon Hyde’s part of the solution to this. I mean, again, let’s, let’s take a step back when Brandon Hyde was hired, what, three weeks after Mike Elias back in the fall of 2000 18 going into that off season. What did we say at the time? I mean, this, this guy’s the caretaker, right? This is the guy. He’s Bo Porter for the Astros before they hire their AJ Hinch. I mean, we all said that at the time. And to his credit, to this team’s credit, to these young players, their credit, they turned the corner so quickly, so rapidly in 22 I mean, they were bad. I mean, they were 10 games under 500 in mid June, and then suddenly they reel off, what the 10 game winning streak or whatever, in early July, and suddenly it’s like, hey, these guys are good, and they were good the rest of the year. So it’s a credit to him. It’s a credit to everything that happened then. But at the same time, you also have to be realistic about this thing and say that, okay, this isn’t just the 13 and 23 start. This is going back to the end of last June that this team just hasn’t been the same. And yeah, the pitching injuries are a big part of that. But guess what? That’s baseball if you’re if your path to success is hoping all your pitchers are going to stay healthy in 2025 that’s not a plan that that’s a Hail Mary. So that’s part of why I’ve had the issue that I’ve had with their philosophy in terms of not doing enough on the pitching front. And it’s not to say they have, you know, I’ve heard some people say they can’t develop pitching. They they’ve developed some pictures, and they’ve had some success stories. I mean, look at some of the reclamation projects they’ve had. I don’t think they’re completely clueless on that front. But at the same time, if you’re not drafting pictures till the fifth round, on average, you know, you kind of go through. I mean, I I even looked at this recently, you know, 2019 the earliest round. They drafted a pitcher. The eighth round, 2020 the fifth round, 2,021/5 round, 2022 guess what? They drafted a picture in the third round. They didn’t sign them. And he’s, he’s with the Mets. Now it’s Nolan McLean. He’s a top 100 prospect. Uh, trace bright. They drafted in the fifth round and 22 2,023/3 and fourth round. 2,024/4 round. So if you actually go and look the last couple years, they have started to veer into drafting a little more pitching than they had in the past. But is that enough? Are you doing enough in terms of making trades and making signings, not signings? Was
Nestor Aparicio 27:19
really the only arm that has been a guy over the last three or four years that you felt like was front of rotation guy. Yeah, you never felt like any of the rest of these Bradish. I mean, Brad
Luke Jones 27:31
8radish ended up being the pleasant surprise in that you didn’t really think he was going to be that guy, but he performed like it. They thought Keegan akin might be that guy. I mean, you know DL Hall, who obviously had his issues staying healthy, and it’s been the same story with him with Milwaukee, unfortunately, but, but yeah, I mean of of the premier type prospects, the only one they really inherited that ended up being a horse, even through the minor leagues, was Grayson Rodriguez. Now, of course, he’s broken down again and again and
Nestor Aparicio 28:02
all of that there was just, in a general sense, you didn’t need to be the world’s biggest fan or a baseball America reader, rushman Henderson beside mayo. You know, even Norby and Stowers were guys that like were, you know, sours in the big leagues, right? I mean, you know all of the names of all of that log jam of talent that turned into Corbin burns last year, right? Like that was all but it was, it wasn’t pitching. It wasn’t pitching. No, it
Luke Jones 28:31
wasn’t but, but you look at that, and you see how that part of the plan has gone, and you start to say, this needs to be adjusted. But the plan
Nestor Aparicio 28:38
12 months ago was perfect. Maybe 12 months ago, we checked in and said, Oh my god, Jackson, holiday is going to get here. Mayo is going to get here. Hey, man, curse, that might get here. Stowers, you might deal him and, you know, but like rushman, Henderson, westbergs here, he’s good. Cows is going to strike out a little bit, but he’s gonna play nice outfield. Moo, he’s good. Like it felt like all of the cakes were baked at the right time a year ago, and now it’s just a freaking disaster. Man.
8Luke Jones 29:11
Yeah, no, no question, and that’s where. And believe me, I don’t want to say this coming across as a mike Elias apologist, because you’ve heard me be critical of certain elements of what Michael is not even going back two or three years. I mean, you go back to, like, say, 2022 when they’re they’re pitching acquisition was Jordan Lyles. And for me, the thought was, you know, you should be dialing this up because rush you want to be hitting the ground running when Adley rutschman gets here later this season, and some of these, Gunner Anderson arrives later this season. So I, you know, there were times where I’ve questioned things, however, to your to your very point that you just made, when you think about where this was a year ago, and how badly this has gone off the rails. I mean, the injuries are a big part of that. There’s no question about that. But that’s where, if I am. Mike Elias. Is, I am looking at this thing like, you’re kind of, like, pulling your hair out, like, what the heck happened? Like, what? What has gone so wrong? You know, we’ve
Nestor Aparicio 30:09
talked so much injuries are
Luke Jones 30:10
the first thing. Yeah, no question. But we’ve talked so much about this offense, though, like, what happened last July, where we’ve just seen this thing dissipate ever since, and that’s where, you know, do Is there a blind spot in your player development? Is there something that teams have identified in, in how you do things, your approach, that that you’re completely susceptible? Now, you know, I’m not saying it’s a smoking gun, like, you know, like, oh well, just early Orioles split finger fastballs off the time, and they can’t hit that like, you know, it’s not that simplistic, but is there something in your approach that teams have just completely exploited? And I know the easy thing would say, well, they they were too reliant on the home run. Go, look at the best offenses in baseball. Everyone hits home runs today. That’s not to say you you can’t, you can’t. You can get away with not being able to do other things. But, you know, I think that’s too simplistic. But man, this is where you look at this thing. And for all these guys, I mean, morale is bad. It doesn’t mean they hate Brandon Hyde. It doesn’t mean that they don’t respect Brandon Hyde. But I don’t, I don’t need to be a you don’t need to be a fly on the wall in the Orioles clubhouse right now to know that morale is bad. I mean, they’re 13 and 23 in a season where expectations are were high on the heels of a disappointing second half and being bounced last year in October. So
Nestor Aparicio 31:32
8and they’re coming home on Monday, one way or another, they’re going to play in the middle of the night all weekend, right? So they’re sort of out of sight, out of mind a little bit, but people have tickets next week and they’re going down and they’re getting their bobble head, especially
Luke Jones 31:43
the Washington series the weekends next week. I don’t think anyone’s gonna be at the Minnesota series. You know, there’s nothing appealing about the twins that you know, when you look at the schedule in jail, there is Danny Cole there is, well, there’s another example of a deal where, you know, it’s, it’s kind of small potatoes in the big, big, big picture sense. But like, what was that evaluation, you know, to save $4 million on Danny coulomb and you kept seeing al Perez instead. I mean, it didn’t have to be an either or for one thing. But anyway, but yeah, you, you look at this home, this home stand that’s coming up. I mean, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Minnesota. I mean, the Thursday game is a, you know, afternoon business, you know, businessman special 1235 start those games, whatever. I’ll
Nestor Aparicio 32:27
be a state lease at the crab races that this weekend,
Luke Jones 32:29
that this weekend where, you know, Washington’s coming in. You know, not, not, not that the NATs are a juggernaut. But, you know, and we’ve already seen this. They’ve got some good young players. So, I mean, they’re a team that still is another year away, it feels like, but, you know, they’re certainly good enough to take care of the Orioles. So you know, that’s going to be, it’s going to be
8Nestor Aparicio 32:55
interesting. Well, getting booed at home and stuff that’s little outside the realm of what we’re used to around here, right? We’ve always been this genteel fan base, and I don’t even like If Katie Greg spent the weekend with me and we sat around talking about baseball in the history of baseball here, the fact that you began this conversation by saying you’ve never seen the fan base this angry. I’m not a surfer, right? I’m not at all because, like, I took phone calls here of absurdity. What are you hearing? What are they hearing? Where is this anger? Not just directed at Brandon Hyde or the hitting or whatever, but just give me some absurdities that you feel in regard to the anger. Because I’m telling you, the anger is going to get taken out on Rubenstein, the players in the stadium, from the people who are the stakeholders, and the the rest of us, and Raskin and I talk, we’re just going to go away. And I saw, I saw a couple of things that I want to throw at you, okay, and this is just meathead stuff that I’m throwing out, but I screenshot a few of these, as far as like, I’m starting to see them a little bit, and I just want to read them the right way and make sure that that I’m being accurate. But there was one fellow who wrote to Ryan Ripken and said, Hey, your dad’s like an owner now, Hey, Ryan ripkin, show. Can you have your dad on the show? Because, you know, dead dad interviewing the kids the way we should do this, if he’s an owner, and ask him if he’s cool with how the team he’s part owner of is performing. Can you ask him if he finds all of this acceptable, and if he still wants to wait before firing people? Why? So now they want Cal Ripken, you know? So this is how this is, got tentacles all the way through of, I don’t the firing hides, not saving the season. It’s not making the playoffs. It’s not getting them to the winner’s circle. Like, I don’t know, the pound the flesh thing, part of this. But fans are yelling at Ripken now. They’re, you know, and everyone’s
Luke Jones 35:02
mad, everyone’s mad, I think they’re, I to answer your question, and look, this is might even be more of a the fans that are trending younger, who may or may not have vivid memories of 14 straight years of losing from 98 through 2011 but I think there’s very much a sentiment. And you know, I’ve even expressed this tongue in cheek to, you know, people in my life where you were subjected to what the Orioles did 2018 and obviously 2018 was not like one thing that I’ve seen, I’ve even seen, I saw an article on CBS Sports com that was critical of Mike Elias. It, it talked about him being the overseer for 2018 like, Get your facts right, at least, like Elias was hired after 2018 the Orioles did not deliberately start off tanking. They had, they had the the Adam Jones, Manny Machado, that era, Chris Davis era of players, and that era was duct taped together for one more year in 2018 and did not work. So if we need to at least be accurate, you know, especially if we’re talking about wanting to fire people. But I think that the overall gist that I get from a lot of people that have really tried to even just become a bigger fan in the last five, six years, is we sat through the rebuild for a year and a half of good baseball, and now we’re right back where we started. Whether they’re actually, you know, I don’t think they’re actually right back where they started, but they’ve clearly taken a major, major step back in 2025 I just think there’s a there’s a sense of betrayal and this, this really goes in line with what I said to you, even going back to 2018 and 19, that baseball fans have a right to be cynical and skeptical and doubting about these multi year rebuilds, because you already mentioned them in this conversation. The Pittsburgh Pirates are a perfect example of this. These teams that say they have these five year plans and, oh, we’re not going to spend money now, but, man, we got, you got this guy, this guy, this guy, and this guy in our minor league system, and they’re on the come and drink awful
Nestor Aparicio 37:13
coffee until such point, but we will spend money
Luke Jones 37:17
8and then that that never happens either. Either you never really get to a point where you’re even at a point where it makes sense to spend money if you’re viewing things through that lens. Or enough bad happens where you say, Oh, we’ve got to reevaluate where we are. Or you’re firing another manager. You’re firing another general manager, and you’re just in this purple
Nestor Aparicio 37:37
look, the only fan that was foolish enough to trust John Angelos was the governor of this state. No one else trusted John Angelos or the Angelos family to really have a best foot forward in all of this. That’s why this rebuild thing was a tanking period. You can call it rebuilding if you want. It was serving awful baseball and charging full price and saying later, we’ll give you steak. We’ll eat hamburger now or dog food now, and we’ll, we’ll turn it into filet mignon one day so and here’s, but here’s the no other business in in life can do that to you and get away with it. No,
Luke Jones 38:20
but I would also say, if it’s executed properly, it is, it does work. It can work. The Orioles were not in a position Nestor, you and I both know, as bad as they were in 2018 the dumbest thing they could have done was to go spend a bunch of money for 2019 to do what to maybe, to maybe have a 70 win team. I mean, that’s where the Orioles were for for the better part of 14 years where, you know, they kind of half heartedly tried and and
Nestor Aparicio 38:47
that team, and you’re pocketing 50 million, you’re carrying their water for them. We’re going to be sitting and anybody, and they all, everybody was, well, we can’t. Why spend now, we stink. I remember all those conversations said
8Luke Jones 39:03
for Angelos and that because they’re because they’re not, because there’s no they’re going to spend it later, and then they don’t, then they don’t, but, but at that point, there was no pathway for them to be good, but because it things had burned, things that burned down under, because the ownership
Nestor Aparicio 39:17
was terrible. No question, no question, no question. Dan Duke
Luke Jones 39:22
had said, a lousy job.
Nestor Aparicio 39:24
8We’re gonna find out what this ownerships about. Sure is they’re gonna make these decisions, and none of these people are their people. And I keep going back to the top of the party and saying, maybe they will, because David Rubenstein will want to get he’s already got a bobble head dude. He’s got this is the point where you’ll find out what he’s about, because he’ll start hiding. He ain’t going to be out. Cal don’t want to be behind home plate when they’re 24 and 43 three weeks from now. You know what I mean? Like, I that there. I didn’t read that to embarrass Cal or Ryan Lipkin. I’m just saying like,
Luke Jones 39:55
Cal’s not the control per a Cal is not
Nestor Aparicio 39:59
the what they. Cal has him out in front of it, but he is the control person to some idiots, he is really, I mean, I’m just saying, like people in the fan base, dude, I’ve had people come on. I’ve had three somewhat logical people come up to me and say they’re grooming Cal Ripken to run the franchise you and I think that’s absurd. I’m telling you, there’s a huge percentage of their fan base that thinks like if they put Cal Ripken as the hitting coach on Monday, if that’s what they announced, people would be okay with that. They would think that’s fixed. You want to somebody wants Bill Ripken to be the manager. I saw that. So I’m just saying this is when sensed fan base. This is what fans are saying. And I have no idea where David Rubenstein is. His last name is Ripken. Let’s hire
Luke Jones 40:47
him. Yeah. I mean, I don’t. First of all, I we also need to remember, in the same way that it was the same thing with with talk show calls that that’s the vocal minority. I don’t think that that’s the overwhelming sense from Orioles fans. But the overwhelming sense from Orioles fans is that there’s a lot of frustration because, and let me finish my thought that I was talking about just the, you know, being cynical and doubting and non trusting about these rebuilds, is it actually worked for the Orioles. They got to the point where they want 101 games, you know, they got to the point. And I feel like everything that’s happened, save for the Corbin burns trade, since the the trade deadline of 2023 I think fans really feel let down by Mike Elias. I think fans feel really let down by the organization as a whole to say, Okay, you talked, and Elias even used the term liftoff at the trade deadline the previous year, when they traded Mancini and they traded Jorge Lopez and and, you know, the players were a little taken aback by that. And he, I think they were in Arlington, he flew there, talked to the players, and there was all that. But he said, from this point on, its lift off. And I think everyone’s kind of been waiting to see something that is a better representation of that. And the moves that have been made largely haven’t really worked out. You know, Corbin burns worked out, and then guys got hurt. But you look at the trade deadline in 23 where they clearly needed a bullpen piece, and they got Fuji, who wasn’t even good enough to be on the postseason roster, despite the fact that they lost Felix Batista in the period of time from the time Fuji arrived and then was sent home. Essentially, the jack Flaherty thing. Wasn’t the jack Flaherty thing, same thing. I mean, so, so you look there and you say, Man, you had this opportunity with this team. That was fantastic. And what did you do? I mean, that wasn’t a great sign. To his credit, he got Corbin burns. Great move. Still do that move 100 out of 100 times, even knowing that Corbin burns, moved on. And by the way, the Brewers right now, DL Hall can’t stay healthy. And Joey Ortiz, despite a really good first half of last season, go look at his numbers for as much as we’re talking about. Kyle Stowers thriving in Miami. Joey Ortiz is kind of falling apart with the brewers. So, so brewers fans are kind of looking at the deal and saying, Wow, we didn’t, didn’t get a whole lot for, even if it was a rental, we didn’t get a whole lot for a year of Corbin. Brewers fans, you gave a scope first. Now this, okay, sure, sure, yeah, sure. But, but, yeah, you just, you know, you look at that, and that’s where I I’ve kind of questioned, and I think a lot of people have this question, and a lot of fans have have presented this, and I think this is a very fair criticism, slash question, at this point in time, Mike Elias did a really good job building this thing, and that’s assuming that these young players, Maybe they’re not all going to make it, but I think they’re better than what they’re showing right now. What? How now you got to figure out how to get back on track. But they the rebuild part. Elias did a good job with I think it’s everything that’s happened since then, where you look at this thing and say, some general managers are builders, and then you have other general managers or guys that get you over the hump. You know, I’ve kind of used Dave Dombrowski, even though, you know, it doesn’t necessarily align with his entire career. But I kind of look at where he was when he arrived in Philadelphia. I guess that was about five years ago at this point in time, the Phillies, at that point in time, you know, had spent some money. They had gotten Bryce Harper. They, you know, they, they had some veteran players, but they also had some young players. And you kind of looked at their mix, and it didn’t feel like they were in a position where they were going to get over the hump. And Dave Dombrowski arrived. Now, granted, Philadelphia is a huge market. They have an owner that spends a lot of money. So there’s always that element to this. When you’re talking about teams like the Orioles that are not a big market team. I mean, they’re just not, you know, we’ve talked about that mass and isn’t the cash cow that it was 20 years ago, obviously.
8Nestor Aparicio 44:53
But one of the more reasons I want the ownership and the leadership to sit in front of me and everyone else and say. What they are, but what are you but looking
Luke Jones 45:02
at the at the General Manager, you know, Dave Dombrowski, to me, is, is not a guy that is a rebuild kind of general manager, certainly at this point in his career. I mean, you know, I think that’s kind of what happened in Boston, you know, he was there, and then the Red Sox entered a transition period and, like it was, it was over, and he, he was gone. Uh, so that’s my question at this point. I mean, I don’t know if Mike Elias, you know, I don’t know if he has the chops to to make the kind of moves that get you over the hump, and to not just build something to a certain point of contention, but then to take your contender and make it better, and make it better and and better position it. You know, it feels like he’s so risk averse, although, at the same time, you know, people like me have called him risk averse in a lot of ways. But you know, he spent a lot of money this off season relative to what the payroll had been. Didn’t necessarily spend it well. You know, to put he took
Nestor Aparicio 45:58
a risk on the Japanese pitcher. He took a risk last summer, dealing for the kid Rogers, he took a risk, you know, like
Luke Jones 46:07
8but at the same time, you also look at some of these prospects, and you start to question, have you held on to some of these guys too long? You know, the fact that you only got Trevor Rogers for Kyle Stowers and Connor Norby might suggest that maybe you should have dealt those guys a year earlier than you did. You know, we’re having that same conversation right now about Coby mayo, whether he ultimately makes pans out and plays for the Orioles, or whether he’s ultimately dealt for pitching or something, you know, whatever you know, you start to question now that may have struggled last summer, albeit small sample size. You know, I’m not trying to bury the kid. He’s still young. He’s still very well could figure it out and be a heck of a major league player, but his first few cups of coffee in the major leagues have not gone well. To put it slightly, you know, to put it mildly. So, you know, there’s another example. Could you have traded COVID Mayo a year ago, year and a half ago, for something of greater value that really could have helped your team last year and this year. You know, it’s fair to ask that, so I think that’s where, I think fans feel betrayed, that it’s like you got to this point and then it’s just plateaued, and now it’s going backwards, right? It plateaued second half of last year, and it’s gone backwards since then. So that’s where I think fans feel a level of betrayal, and now that’s where, if you’re Mike Elias, you’ve got to figure out how to start getting this thing back on track. And kind of the entry level thing to do is to make changes with the coaches, to make a managerial change. You know, I don’t want to say that to I don’t say that to be insensitive, but because I don’t think by any means it’s all their fault. But I’m not seeing enough evidence that Brandon Hyde has has the answer to get these guys playing better. Because again, the pitching, yeah, the pitching, pitching is awful. And can it get better, sure, but it’s still not going to be very good. I mean, that’s just the truth. These guys, they’re not terribly talented pitchers either, you know, in terms of stuff and all that. But where they are supposed to be really talented is on the position player side, and even with some of the injuries that certainly have, haven’t helped. But it’s not like their entire starting nine has been out. That’s where I look at this and say I’m not seeing Brandon Hyde. Have a solution here. I’m not saying
Nestor Aparicio 48:22
they don’t have an all star right now. They don’t have a player who’s played well enough to be an all star, like, literally anywhere on on the field. Like, that’s an amazing thing.
Luke Jones 48:31
I’d have to look at like, DHS. Like, Would Ryan O’Hearn be the best DH in the Al? I mean, but if we’re asking that question, it’s like, holy cow, that’s, that’s a last place
Nestor Aparicio 48:40
team, Luke. We’re going to take a break. You can find Luke all weekend. He’ll be following saying up all night, like the Boomtown Rats out in Anaheim. We are doing the Maryland crab kick tour next week at the Maryland party out at the pool, at the Encore. We will have the Back to the Future scratch offs to give away on the 28th when we reconvene at Faith lease. He’s Luke. I’m Nestor. Happy weekend. Enjoy yourself. Mother’s Day. Do something nice for your mama.
8Luke Jones 49:05
Happy Mother’s Day to to all the moms out there, and especially to mine and my sister. Also,
Nestor Aparicio 49:09
I won’t be happy to watch any horse we are W, N, S T A of 1570 Towson, Baltimore, and we never stop talking Baltimore. Positive. You.
