Time for Rubenstein to raise bar – and payroll – to get Orioles to October success

Can Adley Rutschman return to his All Star form? Will Gunnar Henderson be healthy in April? Can Jackson Holliday stick this time? Will Colton Cowser and Jordan Westburg continue to surge? Our pal Dave Sheinin of The Washington Post joins Luke Jones and Nestor talk Opening Day realities for Orioles as the Maryland Crab Cake Tour moved to Pizza John’s in Essex for some expert baseball talk.

Nestor Aparicio, Dave Sheinin, and Luke Jones discussed the Orioles’ 2023 season, focusing on Adley Rutschman’s performance and injury concerns, the team’s offseason moves, and the impact of new ownership. They highlighted the need for Rutschman to return to form and the importance of pitching depth. They criticized the lack of significant offseason acquisitions, particularly a top starting pitcher. They also discussed the Orioles’ revenue model, the challenges of streaming, and the need for better fan engagement. The conversation concluded with concerns about the team’s long-term financial stability and the potential for a sugar daddy owner to invest more heavily in the franchise. Nestor Aparicio and Dave Sheinin discuss the financial realities of sports franchise ownership, highlighting the Baltimore Orioles’ current financial situation. Aparicio notes the Ravens’ $8 billion valuation and contrasts it with the Orioles’ $600 million in revenue and significant debt. Sheinin suggests that the potential sale price of $3 billion in three years could justify higher spending. They also touch on personal anecdotes, including Aparicio’s long-standing relationship with Pizza John’s and Sheinin’s current focus on non-baseball writing due to family financial commitments.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Orioles, baseball season, Adley Rutschman, pitching staff, new ownership, revenue model, streaming options, Tommy John surgery, player contracts, fan engagement, Baltimore sports, sports franchises, media strategy, team performance, sports injuries., Orioles, Opening Day, franchise value, debt service, investment, Steve Cohen, Rubenstein, baseball analytics, Washington Post, Maryland lottery, Pizza John’s, Toronto, Blue Jays, analytics story, sports ownership.

SPEAKERS

Dave Sheinin, Luke Jones, Speaker 1, Nestor Aparicio

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Nestor Aparicio  00:00

Welcome home. We are W, N, S, T. Am 1570 tasks in Baltimore. We are Baltimore positive. I am delighted to put these two gentlemen together. We’re at Pizza John’s saw brought to you by the Maryland lottery. Magic, eight ball scratch offs. We’re going to be at fade Lee’s in Lexington market. And look, I could have invited shine and down to Lexington market at Fayette Lee’s. He’s like lives in the city, all that, all these City guys, you have a hard time getting county guys into the city. You got a hard time getting city guy out into the county. Dave shining to the Washington Post, is up making his pizza. John’s debut here in Essex. Luke Jones, his families from Essex is returning as the champion of the pepperoni and meat sauce pizza. It is all brought to you by the Maryland lottery. We’re delighted to be here in Essex. And I think, Luke, you know this when i You’ve always the minute I knew you, you’re like, I would say Pizza John, you’re like, Pizza John, oh my God, that’s my favorite, my family’s favorite. This is like 15 years ago, and they’ve been a sponsor for on and off for a decade. Big appreciation to Brett and every whole family you’re just every treats me with love every time I come in here, and my wife as well, who carries it out all the time. And when I invite people, whomever they are, any of my guests, I try to keep them close to home, you know, because I feel like it’s I’m putting you out to drive out. It’s very kind of all of you. I try to feed all of you, but like, I’ve had you at, like, Fells Point. And, you know, in Cocos that places that are in the city. But I wanted to have you on because it’s baseball season. I’m reading your work at the Washington Post, and I know you live down by Patterson Park, by the pagoda, where all the good beer is. And you got great pizza in Highland town. I got Matthews. You got verde you got places you can go and get great pizza. Johnny rads, Johnny rads, right up Street, course, right. So you got your spots, but like I said to you, while we’re doing the show in the next month, but like, I’m a Pizza John peach Johns. I’ve never been there. I heard it’s good. And I’m like, well, then get your ass to Essex. Welcome.

Dave Sheinin  01:53

How legendary. Ah, good man. Much better now that I’ve had a slice of that meat, the Luke special, whatever that is, meat. Saw meat lovers special, yeah, there was

Nestor Aparicio  02:04

no bacon on that, or sausage. If he was really loving me, he’d be doing all of that. You know, good. How’s life? I mean, you’ve been, you’re back on the real baseball beat Dave shine. And if you are unfamiliar, covered the Orioles for at the turn of the century, for a number of years, it’s covered the NFL, covered Olympics. But it says, it says Washington on it. But he from Washington. He lives here in Baltimore, and you, I mean, you lived here when you covered the Orioles 30 years ago, and sort of never left Baltimore, right,

Dave Sheinin  02:32

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never left. I mean, just love, fell in love with the city. Never wanted to leave, never really took to DC. Where were you from? Originally grew up mostly in Georgia,

Nestor Aparicio  02:43

so I didn’t even know that about Yeah. So you’re a Braves guy kind of sort Yeah. Back

Dave Sheinin  02:47

in the day, yeah. Oh, well no, Jane the Francisco Cabrera hit and it won the pennant. Was the pinnacle of my Yeah, yeah, the pinnacle of my. My youth. Never

Nestor Aparicio  03:00

tell you what happened in that game. I the Orioles was 9291 90 there’s not even 9219 92 was the first season that we had a radio shows. First season came the yard. I befriended David sige, right? Because his his father played with my cousin, yeah, with the Red Sox, right? Diego sigue So David, to gain our same age, were a couple months apart, and we just kind of hit it off. He was like a trying to make the team kind of guy, you know, I mean, and it kind of a prospect kind of guy. And I realized the players, I mean, I know all those guys, Jack Boyd, Brady Anderson, all these guys, they had tickets for the World Series. This is before these guys scalped them and did all that stuff. The NFL players, they just had as a player in the player Association, they had a right to buy strips of tickets, right? And I knew this being around them, and I said to sige, you can get World Series. It’s like, yeah, man, I don’t ever get them, but like, if you want them, tell me, I’ll get you tickets. And I’m like, All right, well, if the pirates get into the World Series, because the 92 orders were no good, right? They weren’t going to the world they weren’t going anywhere. They were going to 1993 is where they were going. They were going into receivership with Peter Angelo’s at that point, I said, Siggy got me the tickets, and I got him through the front. Rick Vaughn was involved, I think, at the time, and I paid my $242 for the strips. And I had four tickets, four strips. And this is, I’m 23 years old. My beer buddies, Johnny Rapha lead is Kevin Eck, probably swish Morrison, at that point, we had World Series tickets, right? We haven’t been in World Series since 83 none of my buddies have been the World Series games like, we’re gonna drive to Pittsburgh. Bonds Van Slyke, we’re going to the World Series. So I had tickets. They were all over my house on Kane Street. We’re drinking. We’re like, in that game watching that dude when he when bream slid into I watched it on my timeline a couple days ago, when he slid in the home plate. I was like, holding the strips of the World Series tickets, and I’m like, Ah, we’re not going to the World Series. And that was in 1992 Yeah, little did I know in 2025 I’d be sitting in Essex. You’re still in the middle. World Series game, have you?

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Luke Jones  05:01

I have not your life. You’ve never, I’ve been to a Super Bowl, but never a World Series game. See

Nestor Aparicio  05:06

what it means with the World Series. And you’ve been a 10,000 World Series games, Mr. Mr. Right. I’ve been the I did the math. I did the 57 World Series games in my life. 57 World Series,

Dave Sheinin  05:16

okay, I’d have to add all mine up. I, which is over 100

Nestor Aparicio  05:19

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Yeah, but it broke my heart that moment. I’m like, World Series. I would be if I was just an Oriole fan, if I had a press pass here. But like, for me, that bream thing was, every baseball moment is a memory, right? I mean, yeah, when you love the game as much as we love the game, every you remember, every no hitter, every minute, every girl, every Devereaux foul ball home run in 1988 baseball marks those things in that way. Baseball so beautiful. That’s when guys get together. Love baseball.

Dave Sheinin  05:50

I mean, I have made the argument to other people that that was the most dramatic moment in the history of baseball. And everybody has their own thing, the Bill Mazeroski Homer, the Bobby Thompson Homer, you know, the David Freese, the Aaron Boone, whatever, whatever your moment is, but this was the only scenario where the Braves were down to their last strike and we’re gonna lose the world. They were gonna lose the pennant if there was one more strike. But on that next pitch, they not only didn’t lose the pennant, they won it. It turned from a loss to a win. That won the pennant and took the Braves to the World Series. And that’s never happened in any other scenario, like even if Aaron Boone doesn’t hit his home run, it’s still a tie game and goes into another x ray if you know Bobby Thompson doesn’t hit his home run the game still,

Nestor Aparicio  06:42

even Mookie, Mookie and Bucha, they played another they

Dave Sheinin  06:46

had to win another game. This was game seven. It was the ninth inning. It was two strikes, two outs, and the Braves were down a run. So if that, if they strike, if Francisco Cabrera strikes out GAME OVER pirates in the World Series, that pitch turned 180

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Luke Jones  07:02

degrees for the pirates as well. I mean, that they been back, kind of, they never, kind of died for them. Of course, they still have a franchise. Barry Bonds moves on that winter all over. Yeah. I mean, you think about at that point in time, they were, what, 13 years removed from beating the Orioles in 79 they had one in 71 Clemente was baseball royalty, and you think about what that meant for them, so it you present a very compelling argument there. Well, you know, I wouldn’t think of that as like a top one, but it’s an underrated one, no question about it. It is.

Dave Sheinin  07:33

There’s not another scenario where you go from losing the pennant to winning the pennant on one pitch.

Nestor Aparicio  07:41

I got lottery tickets. I got french fries, all that. So, you know, I feel bad about those tickets that I mail back. I have a xerox of them. You know, I made a little Xerox of the World Series tickets and a strip, and they were up in a 751 up and, you know, up in a roof of that, that trash bowl in three river stadium. Imagine being a pirates fan, how bad you would feel if you were holding those tickets. Because, I mean, I was holding those tickets for the Orioles at various points where it looked like they could make the playoffs. In 89 I had strips, yeah, World Series 689, I worked at the paper then. Was that the why not year? That was why not year? And it didn’t happen. But where are you on the Orioles? He and I have been arguing for now. We’ve been arguing for six months about offseason, what they did, what they didn’t do. I think it’s a weirder conversation now, and I haven’t talked to you all all season, but I hit you six weeks ago, before spring training, like, well, this or that, whatever, but Rodriguez was healthy, and Kittredge was going to pitch, and Henderson was going to play, and mayo is going to make the team, like all of these things that have transpired. It’s typical baseball, but he and I both feel like it’s a little diminished right now. I mean, it is in New York too, for the Yankees, but it’s a little diminished, as I have French rising kids, I would, I

Dave Sheinin  08:47

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would say, first of all, I think they missed an opportunity. This was the off season to go for it. This was the off season to go all in. You got the new ownership. You know, you want, you want them to show what they’re made of. You want them to put, you know, their money where their mouth is. They had a big opportunity here. The core is in place. Everything is in place. When you rebuild a team, you’re at the point now where you you build it up and and they didn’t do it. And, you know, what did you want to see him do? Um, well, I mean, bring back Corbin burns. I mean, you know, resign him, or at least somebody equivalent. Yeah, that would have been where I start with it, with a number one starter, a number one pitcher. But I also would say that in this day and age with the expanded postseason, the regular season is diminished overall. And I think, I think, is a higher than likely shot that the Orioles make the playoffs, or with all these wild cards and stuff, and so you don’t have to, you don’t have to win. This isn’t 1992 you know, you don’t have to win the division to get into the playoffs. Have to almost. Half the teams make the playoffs. You just have to be one of those 12 teams. And the Orioles are fully capable of doing that, more than capable of doing

Nestor Aparicio  10:08

that. Why’d you start covering a team 90, 456, somewhere

Dave Sheinin  10:11

near No. Well, I’ll tell you. I’ll put it this way. I was an intern in 1990 and spent three weeks on the beat as an intern, but then I did Memorial Stadium, yeah, yeah. Then I didn’t take over the full time beat until 1999 90.

Nestor Aparicio  10:25

So you came a little masky was before you, I remember before who’s now on the NFL beat. I’ve been at this. It’s my 32nd or their 35th year on the radio, 35th season on the radio, um, they’ve never, ever had money to buy players, right? Well, they’ve never had they tried

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Dave Sheinin  10:44

once, and it was Albert Bell, Mike Timlin, Will Clark here, which was my first year, 99 Well, I’m thinking that meant all that money. That would

Nestor Aparicio  10:54

have been that era when Peter was nuts and Luke wasn’t on the radio then, but Luke spent me 17 years now, right? But there was a period where they could buy players in that era with Peters money, but they couldn’t trade for anybody. Alex is showing we’re going to deal Sidney Powell and song for a bag of baseballs and whatever they now have, allegedly money. And we can say, well, Ruben signs rich. What he’s going to if he’s going to be sugar daddy or not? We got to figure that out. He said over at the Beth to fellow when I heard him speak, you know, in baseball, we tend to spend what we make. Well, if they’re going to spend what they make here, they’re not going to be very good. No, no. So that, that that being said, then there’s the talent that they’ve never had the ability to make a July deal because they’ve never had anything anybody else wanted. They were never willing to take on the money that came with it, like the effluent deal last year, just an example of something. Angeles never would have done that because they wouldn’t want to give up the prospect they were prospects. They wouldn’t have wanted to pay him with the year left on this deal. They are operating more like a normal team than they have in 30 years. But that being said, for 30 years, they didn’t have any of these resources for to calm me down, because Luke’s the one out of his mind, even though he’s about the press pass that I am the guy the voice of reason to say you’re you’re on the far end of they have to go get Corbin burns for me to have confidence in them. For me, I feel like, all right, picked up a couple pictures. They didn’t spend a lot of money. They’re saving ground like a horse race in a, you know, my, you know? And it’s sort of like, okay, he was young. Last week, signed Robertson ten million and he and I got into it. And he’s like, Well, if you don’t have ten million to sign a relief pitcher, you’re not serious. And I’m like, well, then we have been serious in 30 years here, because I’ve never seen him do it and that unto itself. Well, this guy’s hurt. Well, let’s go spend some money and replace them like we’ve never seen that here, or we’re not good enough. It’s July. Let’s deal mayo or cows or a real player. Deal something that isn’t a bag of baseballs to go get Scoob if the tiger stinker, whatever sees whoever the flavor of the summer is, they’ve never been able to pull off those things, and because I have the confidence that they can do it now, the resources I’m I’m the one that deserves to press pass out being nice, I am more patient. I mean, patient in regard to all the things you just said, like they’re gonna make the playoffs anyway. They’re gonna be fine. They’re gonna be in the race in July. And then that’s when you want to get in there and Tinker Out of your strength, which is the depth of the organization. You hope that holidays so good. You hope that Mayo is here. You hope you’re not talking about dealing with those guys, but their pitching is not good enough. They’re gonna need more picture. They’re gonna need with money or with resources. They’re gonna need

Dave Sheinin  13:39

more pitch. Let’s put it this way, they’re following the Houston Astros model right right down to the tear down, right down to the GM of the team was was part of that Astros front office. But the Astros, once they built their core around Altuve Correa Bregman, their studs, they went out and got Justin Verlander, and they went out and got Garrett Cole and they went out and got, you know, Roberto Osuna, who was a piece of crap human being, but he was a great closer. They got the pieces they needed to take them over the hump and win a World Series. Now, the World Series was tainted by the cheating scandal, but they won a World Series, and they did it by supplementing their core with massive, big time acquisitions on the free agent and trade markets and and that won them the World

Nestor Aparicio  14:26

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Series. And some of their guys they paid, and some of their guys they didn’t, right? Yeah, Correa’s gone. Bregmans now gone. Yeah, you can’t keep everybody. The Yankees didn’t even keep Soto. And the Yankees didn’t keep soda, right? Dave shining is here, Washington Post. Lucas here. Have some french fries and gravy. This is another these are appropriate bowling alley fries. I mean, that’s what I call you. We call them that crinkle cutters. You don’t like fries and bowling alleys, I guess fries and gravy. It’s a real Baltimore thing. Get yourself, Luke. I want to bring you into this. You know, as reporters being around the team and acts. Asking questions and answers and all of that stuff. What are your biggest questions in regard to this that won’t be answered until we get to this thing, other than injuries himself? I mean, I think rushman sits at the middle of like, just as something that I gotta be watching early on. Yeah?

Luke Jones  15:18

I mean, it has, it’s a non starter. He has to look like Adley rutschman again. And I struggled last year talking about this. And, you know, we’d ask Brandon Hyde about it. And Adley is the type who doesn’t say a whole lot in most scrums, in the locker in the clubhouse, and but he was below replacement level the second half of the year. I mean, that this wasn’t a slump. Gunner had a slump in July, but he was an underwhelming second half, but he was still an above average player in the second half of the season. I mean, Adley rutschman was below replacement level, so he needs to be that guy, not just because he’s that important to their offense, not just because gunner Henderson is questionable for the start of the season at best. I mean, I think he’s probably going to go on the aisle and miss a week, maybe 10 days, which isn’t that devastating to the big picture. But they also need Adley rutschman to be Adley rutschman from a catching standpoint. And when you have this pitching, you know this, the pitching staff, bullpen and rotation that has question marks, not to say that his defense was necessarily impacted by whatever the heck was going on with him in the second half last year, but it’s all related, right? And he’s very much a mojo guy. I mean, we all saw from the moment he was called leadership in mid May of 22 they played mediocre baseball for another three or four weeks, and then they were a playoff caliber team the rest of the year, and that carried over to 101 wins in 23 and not saying he did it alone, but he was very much the face of all that. So he needs to be the Adley rutschman we saw over the first two calendar years, or

Nestor Aparicio  16:53

questions

Luke Jones  16:56

about their offense too. Because I just think you know the on base and you know, just the premium offense you get from a spot that’s not typically an offensive minded position. They need that if he looks like himself, and assuming gunner, and I’ll take that at face value, if he’s not ready for opening day, I don’t think he’s going to be out two months or anything crazy, you know, the rest of that offense, then it’s like, all right, what can the rest of these guys do not? But if he’s not himself, then it’s like, okay, Jackson holiday needs to take a step forward, and Heston kerstadt needs to take a step forward. So Rutgers number one. But you know, after that, you know, then all those other questions become less critical to me, assuming that, yeah, some of those things are going to happen, at the very least some, if not all, but they need rushman to be Richman again. I mean, there’s just it’s i, we haven’t spent too much time talking about it this off season, because it’s just that completely understood that he has to be the guy he was prior to last July.

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Nestor Aparicio  17:55

Why these guys not admit they’re hurt? Dave, I mean, you’ve been covering a game a long, long time, like, what? What would be hard about saying I was battling something like, you know, even in the off season, or during the caravan, or just get it out there that something was wrong last year, other than Adley rutschman, I

Dave Sheinin  18:10

tell you, I understand not acknowledging it during the season. I find it strange that he hasn’t said anything even after the fact, after the fact I’ve seen this a million times. Guys play their season hurt. They don’t say anything about it, they hide it, but then the next spring training, they come back like, Okay, well, I’m gonna come clean now. I mean, I was playing with Do you

Nestor Aparicio  18:32

remember the Flacco injury in the Indianapolis game where they ran the ball? They lost that game? Yeah, he admitted to me three years later, once he won the Super Bowl, I remember being with him at three years. Three years later, I was with him writing the book in Philadelphia at his neighborhood joint having it was March Madness. Thursday is when it was and we’re sitting around watching, we had an ice G and he literally, he like, almost pulled his pants, and he’s like, I had a purple cue ball on my hip. He said my hip was as purple as my jersey. He said he had pictures of the jersey in his hip to show how purple it was. He said, You know, he told me that after three years later, and I’m like, Oh yeah, you you weren’t playing. You were you were gimpy. He’s like, Nah, dude, I, you know, like, I couldn’t practice, I couldn’t move, you know, like, literally. But he didn’t, you know I was in the locker room at night. Everyone wanted to retire. Remember that one’s time? Yeah, right, exactly, but, but in a general sense, of us talking about Adley rutschman Right now, just a simple acknowledgement that that foul tip last year did something to him.

Dave Sheinin  19:35

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You think he would say that

Nestor Aparicio  19:37

it’s in everybody’s best interest is just be honest about it. That’s all make us feel better about where he is. Now, he’s

Luke Jones  19:43

alluded to it, and of course, I’m I’m saying this from a second hand position because I haven’t been down in Sarasota this spring, but I know he’s mentioned it in passing a couple times, in terms of getting his body right, things like that. So is that enough of an admission that there was a. Issue, and maybe it was something minor, but then you develop some bad habits as a hitter as a result, to compensate for a hand or a back issue or whatever, and then it kind of snowballs. I mean, look, us three guys are sitting here talking about baseball because we can’t play it for a living. That is correct, so it’s very difficult. So was there a combination of both going on there? Maybe, but he’s at least alluded to it. But, yeah, I mean, Dave knows, you know whether you’re covering the NFL, and you hear during OTAs that so and so had sports hernia surgery, so and so had his knee cleaned up. This guy had his shoulder done, or, you know, spring training, same thing. That’s usually when it comes out. That’s why the fact that they’ve still been so vague about it has made, you know, left a little bit of a mystique about it, where you just kind of hope that, okay, hopefully he’s Hadley rutschman Again, because they need him to be.

Dave Sheinin  20:45

My theory is that he got out of shape during the season. And that’s not just idle speculation. I mean, I’ve had scouts tell me that that he looked like he was out of shape by the end of the year. I don’t know, you know, I don’t know if that he could have been compensating for an injury in appearing that way, but I think that may be part of what was going on well, so much

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Nestor Aparicio  21:08

of what they do their strength at this point. That’s where Jackson holiday has been and all look first day at camp. I wasn’t down there in February, but all the reporters are down there that it’s like they had steroids. Everybody’s bigger, everybody’s stronger. I mean, we used to say that about Brady and Brady Anderson. He had some some milkshakes over the winter. I don’t know what they do 30 years later, but there are guys that beefed up over the off season because strength is the game,

Dave Sheinin  21:31

right? That shaped my life, right? That that’s one of the classic story lines of spring training. Well, I feel that way. That’s shaping my life. Yeah, and

Luke Jones  21:39

a 21 year old doing that is normal a 35 year old, which is the case in baseball for 25 years, where we all raised our eyebrows. That’s a little different when you know when Barry Bonds is changing his body type in the well,

Nestor Aparicio  21:53

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this October that you would be writing about, and Boswell was writing about with the bass brothers all these years ago. What are you doing on the baseball beat right now? And, yeah, in the fact that there are two teams here now, and the money’s now, the mass and thing, I mean, these are interesting franchises moving forward because of the level setting of all that. And from a guy that once wrote a book on RG three, the fact that they have a wonder kind football player down there. And we have a wonderful this is an interesting and you’ve been a capitals practice all morning with 888, and you know the Russian zar King Guy, but they’ve been great, by the way, too, Ovechkin, the caps, the Orioles in the Nationals thing where the ravens and the commanders are. This is the Terps are about to play in an hour here at Pizza, John, this is both Terps teams. Yeah, it’s a good sports time, right? It is to be in the sports is about as good as we’ve ever had it in some ways. Well, the Orioles have always sunk in. The Redskins have always well, but Right, right? And,

Dave Sheinin  22:55

I mean, the Orioles are right there. They’re in it, you know? And, of course, the ravens are always in it, and yeah, and in DC, I mean, well, we have to account for the wizard somehow. But yeah, other than that, man, you know, great time to be a DC sports writer. Let’s put it that way, or a DC slash Baltimore sports writer.

Nestor Aparicio  23:16

What’s interesting for you, on baseball, on enterprise, on things like we mentioned, steroids is something 30 years ago that was interesting, these surgeries with these pitchers. It’s the biggest story of the sport, right? If it’s a big story for Yeah, not just Major League Baseball, yeah, but my wife, as a guy at work whose kids 16 years old, Tommy John, 16 year old,

Dave Sheinin  23:37

I’ll tell you that that dovetails into into what I was going to answer your question with which is, what’s interesting me about baseball? To me, the most interesting thing going on is the product on the field and the way that they saved the game, in some regards, by putting in the pitch clock and certain things that sped the game up, fixed the esthetics of the game, which had deteriorated to the point where, honestly, I quit covering baseball full time in 2021 and it was in large part because I found it to be unwatchable. And the shift, the shift, the length of games, you know, the average game was getting up to, like, three hours and 30 minutes, you know, it was just way

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Nestor Aparicio  24:19

too lefty, lefty, righty, righty, lefty, right? It

Dave Sheinin  24:21

was all time. It was all dead time, right? There’s half the games were half an hour longer than 30 years ago, but all of it dead time. There’s nothing now, no more action going on. So they did a lot of things that fixed the game. Theo Epstein left the cubs to join MLB to be this rules are fixed. Fix the product on the field, but they still, still have a problem that they can’t quite figure out, which is the prevalence of velocity and stuff and and that is getting into the Tommy John epidemic. Baseball has one mo right now for in terms of run prevention, if you’re a team, and that is to. Put guys on the mound who are going to throw max effort, max velocity, as often as they can and what, and then when he peters out, we’re going to bring in. There’s no finesse, there’s no finesse, and it’s just, it’s just a parade of guys throwing 100 Okay, the human arm is not built to withstand that over a long period of time. That’s why you have the Tommy John epidemic in baseball. That’s also why there is less action in the game now than ever. There is about 20% fewer balls in play, and that’s that’s even after the Theo Epstein rule changes, there are 20% fewer balls in play now than there were 25 years ago, and that’s because pitchers are designed to strike everybody out now. That’s all they’re trying to do. So the ball is not in play, so you’re robbed of plays at the plate. Great defensive plays, a ball in the gap, a triple, you know, stuff like that, they need to bring back. So the product on the field is still in my mind, not to where it needs to be. What’s

Nestor Aparicio  25:56

the remedy for that? Okay, I’m trying to take care of my arm. Well, you’re not going to pitch today. One of

Dave Sheinin  26:05

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I would say the number one solution to that is to limit the number of pitchers on us that you can carry on the staff down to, let’s say, 11 or even 10, which would be pretty tough back back when I started him, you started, there were 10 man pitching stats, right? And they made it work. You had starting pitchers who needed to get into the seventh inning to save the bullpen that doesn’t exist anymore. Nobody picked, nobody. Nobody’s goal is to get pitched to the seventh inning. Maybe two guys in the game. Very few, yeah.

Nestor Aparicio  26:35

But Buck would have had 15 pitchers if he could have. But, literally, oh yeah, literally, but, but

Dave Sheinin  26:40

all they’re asking you to do now for the majority of major league teams is to go out there, give us three, four, maybe five innings at max effort, max velocity, and then we’re going to bring in six, seven guys to finish it out, doing the exact same thing. Nobody’s saving any bullets for deep in the game, because nobody’s looking to pitch deep in the game. So you could limit the number of pitchers on the roster, and that would make teams get innings out of their pitchers.

Luke Jones  27:04

I think the I absolutely think that’s an idea with merit, but I think the problem is it’s just so systemic. I mean, as he alluded to, you’ve got 14 and 15 and 16 year olds needing Tommy John surgery now, because they have been taught from an early age. And it continues with showcase and college scholarships and being drafted. They want teams want velocity, and when they want spin and they want movement. And even if you do that, and I do think that would help, I don’t know how much that’s going to help guys getting to that point in the major leagues, because of all the armed injuries you see in the minor leagues take a generation, right? I mean, yeah, I’ve said to him, I mean to me, the next frontier is you can certainly go that route. Or we’re waiting for the next advancements in sports science that either comes up with a new UCL reconstruction procedure that is six months, rather than 12 to 18 or but some don’t even care.

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Dave Sheinin  28:04

Well, don’t even care if it’s 12 or 18. They have, you know, more

Luke Jones  28:08

you’ve but we’ve even seen pictures. I mean, Tyler glass now, who’s one of, easily one of the most talented arms of the last 20 years. He’s talked about this. I mean, this guy’s had multiple arm injuries, multiple surgeries and, you know, and he’s not alone. They’ve kind of talked about like, this is how I got to this point. This is how I’ve made the money I’ve made to this point. And this is where you almost go back to that old steroids dilemma. Not that I’m ever excusing that from that era, but it’s one thing to talk about Barry Bonds. It’s the other thing to talk about the quad a player that stuck it at triple A trying to get to the major leagues, and he’s seen what other people were doing, and it’s like, well, if I don’t do that, I’m not even going to get a chance. You’re trying. So there’s, there’s that. There’s a culture like, it isn’t just something as simple as a rule change, even though, I certainly think long term, there’s, you know, people have talked about the double hook, where a starting pitcher doesn’t go X number of innings you lose your DH. I think that’s interesting. I don’t know if I’m for that, but it’s an interesting idea. But so much of this is cultural, just pressure, because, okay, it’s easy for me to say I’m gonna be the command guy. I’m gonna be the guy that pitches like they did 50 years ago. Never make you’re not even gonna get a look at every college room or to be drafted, let alone make it to the major. So it’s, but it’s, it’s absolutely a problem when, I mean, we were talking in a previous segment, I mean, Garrett Cole was regarded as a horse. Yeah, everyone’s durable until they’re not anymore. Well, that’s your argument, if you’re just a room inside. But, and that’s one thing that’s wild about burns. And look, I I’m someone that is very much leery of giving long term deals to pitchers because of a lot of what we just said, and I pointed to burns in terms of, go, Look his k rate from his 2021 Cy Young year, it’s dropped every single year. But he has said himself, and I’ll take him at least. I don’t know if it’s 100 Face value. But I think there’s something to it, that he’s also going for durability, going for longevity. And I found that to be interesting, you know, because I look at that and say, Okay, well, maybe he’s not the guy you want to commit a seven year deal to because of the k rate and velocity and all that, but at the same time, he continues to post up and make 32 starts every year. So, you know, it’s tough. I mean, it really is. Because, again, if we’re talking about this as baseball fans having concerns, how do you think these teams feel that? Okay, maybe the Dodgers or the Mets, I’m not feeling so sorry for them with their payrolls, but teams like the Orioles, for example, where, okay, maybe they have the money to give that to Corbin burns, but is that going to be the wisest investment just knowing the reality,

Nestor Aparicio  30:43

we’d all be having a parade down lumbar. Chili gets hurt until it gets hurt.