Kicking up the truth about Justin Tucker at The Baltimore Banner

As local journalism continues to evaporate, The Baltimore Banner proved earlier this year that a big story still needs real professional journalists, facts, witnesses and lots of lawyers as the Justin Tucker scandal was unearthed by its team. Sports editor Chris Korman joins Bill Cole and Nestor to discuss what really happened after Justin Fenton and Julie Scharper received a tip about the kicker of the Baltimore Ravens being a serial predator nuisance to women in the massage industry all over the region.

Nestor Aparicio, Bill Cole, and Chris Korman discuss the Justin Tucker scandal, where Korman, as sports editor of the Baltimore Banner, broke the story of Tucker allegedly sexually assaulting 16 women. The story, extensively researched and edited, received significant readership but faced backlash, including legal threats from Tucker’s lawyers. Korman highlights the thorough investigative process, involving multiple journalists and legal consultations. Despite the story’s impact, mainstream media largely ignored it, and the Ravens organization has not publicly acknowledged it. The conversation also touches on the broader issues of accountability in sports journalism and the challenges faced by journalists in reporting on sensitive topics.

Justin Tucker Saga Introduction

• Nestor Aparicio introduces the show, mentioning the Maryland fair and the sponsors.
• Nestor and Bill Cole discuss the absence of Chris Korman, the sports editor of the Baltimore Banner, and his busy schedule.
• Nestor recalls a previous meeting with Chris at Pappas, where the Justin Tucker scandal was not yet a topic.
• Bill and Nestor joke about their friendship and Bill’s role in keeping Nestor in check.

Chris Korman’s Background and Journalism Ethics

• Nestor praises Bill Cole for his journalism background and respect for facts and accountability.
• Bill and Nestor discuss the importance of open dialogue and debates in sports journalism.
• Bill emphasizes the value of having safe spaces to discuss sports and the importance of teaching his children to have open dialogues.
• Nestor and Bill discuss the decline of journalism and the importance of accountability in politics and sports.

Justin Tucker Scandal and Initial Reactions

• Nestor introduces the Justin Tucker scandal and its impact on the Baltimore Banner.
• Chris Korman explains the initial reactions to the story, noting that many people who disagreed with the story had not read it.
• Chris mentions the high readership of the story and the extensive editing process to ensure accuracy.
• Nestor and Chris discuss the involvement of Claire Locke, a law firm known for quashing media stories, and the legal challenges faced.

Investigative Process and Legal Challenges

• Chris details the investigative process, including the initial tip received on January 9 and the extensive research conducted.
• Chris explains the involvement of multiple journalists and the use of social media to gather evidence.
• Nestor and Chris discuss the challenges of verifying the stories and the importance of thorough investigation.
• Chris mentions the legal threats received from Justin Tucker’s lawyers and the careful language used in the story.

Impact of the Story and Media Reactions

• Nestor and Chris discuss the media’s reaction to the story, noting that many outlets did not follow up on the story.
• Nestor criticizes the Baltimore media for not covering the story adequately and the lack of acknowledgment from the Ravens organization.
• Chris explains the importance of the story and the impact it had on the community, despite the lack of media coverage.
• Nestor and Chris discuss the broader implications of the story for sports journalism and the importance of holding athletes accountable.

Personal Reflections and Journalistic Integrity

• Nestor shares a personal story about witnessing Ozzie Newsome’s medical emergency during a Ravens game and the subsequent treatment he received from the team.
• Nestor emphasizes the importance of journalistic integrity and the challenges of reporting on sensitive topics.
• Chris and Nestor discuss the impact of legal threats and intimidation on journalists and the importance of standing by the truth.
• Nestor reflects on the changes in sports journalism over the years and the need for continued accountability and integrity.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Justin Tucker scandal, Baltimore Banner, Chris Korman, investigative journalism, sexual misconduct, NFL, Ravens, Claire Locke, legal threats, media coverage, accountability, sports reporting, journalism ethics, public reaction, sports integrity.

SPEAKERS

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Bill Cole, Chris Korman, Nestor Aparicio

Nestor Aparicio  00:00

It. Welcome home. We are W, N, S, T, A and 1570, task of Baltimore. We are Baltimore positive. We are positively here. It’s very, very quiet here. We’re cost us in Timonium, and it was a mad freaking house here all weekend. It shall be again this weekend, the special days of the Maryland fair. We’re here at Timonium. We’re at the in the grandstand. It cost us, which is now here 365, days a year, like the OTB. It’s all brought to you by the Maryland lottery. Have pressure luck scratch offs. I have some lucky sevens. This is it. Once they’re done, we go to Raven scratch offs. It’s going to be all purple around here as we get ready for Buffalo. Bill Cole, our defending champion of all things cold roofing and the W, N, S, D, tech service and Gordian energy, dude, we’re not gonna do Ocean City today. We’re not gonna do roofing or solar. We’re gonna do some journalism today, because Chris Corman’s here, the sports editor of the ball to more. Banner. Been a little while, some had you on elbows up. How are you everything? Good,

Chris Korman  00:57

great, great. I kind of want to hear about roofs,

Bill Cole  01:00

though. Well, I was just kidding. Oh, see, here we go journalism, and I don’t qualify. Well, here’s the

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Nestor Aparicio  01:05

thing. So this is where serendipity kicks in, right? Like you came over and did the show at Pappas in the middle of my cup of Super Bowl. Yeah, two, three years, two years ago, wherever it was before the Justin Tucker scandal and I had Rosenfeld happened to be there during that period of time. So what I do is, when I do five crab cake tours in a row, which I’ve been doing, and I’m eating all this food, I invite everybody that I like having out on the show and say, Do you want to come? Or do you not calls, usually on a roof or on a trip or with kids or doing something. You’ve got kids. You got a wife. You’re running a journalism thing. Your wife’s a pretty good journalist too. And like neither one of you. You’re always it. Can’t do it, wouldn’t, can’t. Well, I, you know, I call it, I could say I, you know, I mean, call you haven’t done a show, like, four months, dude, you’re getting like, razzed by your buddies because you’re, you’re ducking me ever since Trump got elected. Well,

Bill Cole  01:53

they’re worried I’m not around to, like, keep you in check or pull you back a little bit. Well,

Nestor Aparicio  01:57

here I fall off the deep. Yeah, it’s what I need. Three Days of you and me in Vegas or Ocean City, and you’re going to be the good cop, dude. I’m the designated driver. Tell him.

Bill Cole  02:06

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Tell him I’m the straight one here. I do what I can. I work hard.

Nestor Aparicio  02:10

I talk about drinking. I don’t do it, you know what I mean. So, but then I’ve had you on just you and me, like Christmas time you came to a meet you. So this is no setup with any got you for the journalism guys, but he is a guy, Billy, who you, if you didn’t do what you were doing roofing, you might have gotten you came over to do radio with me. There was an intern with Bob Haney in my radio station, century long time ago. Yeah. So, I mean, you are an old school reader of John Eisenberg, who’s gonna be here a little later on today, Ken Rosenthal, and like, you grew up on journalism, and I think one of the reasons Billy, the last reason he respects me is, you know, I’m not for sale. You’ve seen my act, right? Yeah. So, like, the fact that there still is, I think one of the reasons Cole roofing puts its name with me, not just because of our constantly relationship, is that I’m one of the last people here who will talk to his wife, his journalist Justin Fenton, anybody about facts? I like facts. I like accountability. I like politicians who are accountable on both sides of the fence. I strongly dislike when General Managers fire their manager and hide for three days in Milwaukee. I strongly dislike when a tight end drops a ball and fumbles and doesn’t show up for a press conference. Those are little things. But the accountability part is what you dig about wnst, I think, all these years in, and there’s very few people left doing like what he and I and he’s a Philly guy we’re trained to do, which is journalism around here, it’s like really falling apart, man.

Bill Cole  03:41

It’s, you know, not just the accountability side, but the ability to have open dialog where we 100% disagree about something, but we’re going to talk about it, talk about it, and process it and and I, you know, it’s funny, I never really thought about it this way. But, you know, sports can be one of those safe places where you can actually vehemently disagree with someone and have a really fun debate, and you can bet on it right here, and it’s there’s no consequences, right? Like, like, we’re not, like, that’s not out of bounds that the at the Thanksgiving dinner table, right? Like, they don’t say you’re not allowed to talk about sports or 10, so you’re allowed to argue about sports. So I’m just mostly interested in trying to show my children that you are actually able to have dialog about these because they’re not allowed to in the world they live in, right? You’re not allowed to talk about any of that stuff, because it’s people get their feelings hurt. People get real defensive. This

Nestor Aparicio  04:36

is where the Justin Tucker thing comes in. And Chris, I just want to say, first off, just the journalism. So I don’t think we’ve been in the same room. Last time we were together, the Tucker thing wasn’t a thing. Week before Christmas, we were together at amicis, right. Yeah. Okay, right. So I want to you run me through what you’ve learned as a sports editor, as a journalist, as a guy running a new entity that’s a paywall entity. Trying to do legitimate journalism with family members and employees and people you know, with you know, a new school of journalism. There you broke a massive story that people still come up to me on both sides of the political spectrum, male and female, black and white, all of them purple, I should assure you and say to Peter that, you know, I don’t know if it’s true or not. I you know, did you read the story? Because it’s plural. Well, you know, you know, you can’t believe what you read you get. And I’m like, Man, you are just roped in to thinking, Putin’s a good guy, and you should be voting for this creep, this felon. But I digress onto the other side. But can I believe it’s true? We have really moved to the Russian side of even when credible 16 women stepped forward, and there were more than that, according to Julie, in regard to this story, people come up to me and say, he’s my just a doctor. He ate chicken, he had coffee. He can’t be I’ve met three of these women now I you know, I’ve like I the NFL. The way this thing blew over, as predicted by you, me and anybody else that was paying attention, is that no one ever had to answer a question about it. And the only one who was attacked in that you know the political Don molder, so you attack, the only one was attacked was you Julie the journalist, by Justin Tucker. And there’s been no backing down from the fact that, what do you call you? I know you know the whole list

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Chris Korman  06:41

tabloid fodder, desperate tabloid father going,

Nestor Aparicio  06:45

whatever it was, but whatever

Chris Korman  06:47

journalistic failings, all sorts of all of that, right?

Nestor Aparicio  06:51

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We’re nine months It’s first time you’ve been on a show. I mean, let’s talk about this, because this is the weird place where we’re allowed to talk about this.

Chris Korman  06:57

Yeah. I mean, you know what I would say is that the people you’re talking to, and the people we’ve heard from that disagree with the story, largely have not read the story. You are correct, right? So we would post on Instagram, and Instagram is an open forum, right? So anyone can be on Instagram. So we would post, you know, hey, here’s here’s a new story. Here we’re up to 16 women, and there would be 100 comments, and maybe 60 to 80 of them would be negative. The banner is lying. This is wrong, this is terrible. But then there would be 800 likes, right? So 800 people liked the story as like, and those generally other people who are reading, right? Because those stories, the first Tucker story did. It’s the most widely read story in Banner history.

Nestor Aparicio  07:41

Well, I hit the paywall the first couple 10 hours. You know, the first Friday when it broke I was at Pizza John. I forget where I was. I mean, I was at Pizza John’s, and Jen Marsh, longtime editor of the city paper, and I were literally, I mean, a journalist, journalist, and when she came out of the bathroom reading it. Literally, yeah, literally, we’re sitting over a pizza and cheese steaks. She’s showing me the phone. She’s like, want to I know everybody who wrote this story and is a part of this story. This is some serious shit. I mean, that’s literally where it was at that moment. And by the time I got in the car, Tucker had already called you names, right? And like, Well,

Chris Korman  08:25

we were, we were going back and forth with his lawyers at that point, right? And that’s it. The other thing about these stories is that they are long, they are a little bit difficult to read, right? So we the first Tucker story probably went through conservatively, 2000 edits. Conservatively, 2000 edits. 2000 Yes, because, I mean the time, the number of times we changed words and move things around, because our, I mean, we worked with our

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Nestor Aparicio  08:50

lawyer. How many people are in on this story? At this 2020, there were 20 people in your building sitting on this. You knew about it? Okay, yes, we, you know, we had it. Would like to know that you guys sat on it pretty good there. Kept it quiet.

Chris Korman  09:02

So, yeah, so we didn’t have any rats. We had a giant group working on it, and we were going back and forth. And then his lawyers got involved, right? We got the Claire you know, it’s in the media business. It’s, if you get a Claire lock letter, they have a very distinctive look. They are very threatening. So we got that, and we engaged with Claire Locke. We had, I was the first to engage with Claire Locke. Clear Locke is a law firm, yes, the number one law firm for this sort of work, for the

Nestor Aparicio  09:28

kind of law firm, a kicker that would have $70 million and an organization as billions of dollars would right look to say, is this true?

Chris Korman  09:36

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And they’ve done, you know, clear locks not always in the wrong side of things. They they handled the suit against Fox News for Dominion the the voting booths and won one of the largest judgments ever. But generally, what they do is they, they are hired by people who want to quash stories in the media. But so we were going back and forth with them. And, you know, so I get the story is long, I don’t know what it ended up being, 2000 1500 words. It’s not exactly artfully written, because we had to be so precise with it based on what our lawyers were saying. You know, we had to, we were very careful with the language to to make sure we were in the right places with what we were saying. So that’s been my observation, is that the people who did not really engage with the story, who just want to feel like, I like Justin Tucker. I’ve watched Justin Tucker’s the was the longest tenured Raven. He kicked significant field goals that led the Hall of something, yeah, and, and he was, he was not just a football player. That’s the main thing about it. Long enough to

Nestor Aparicio  10:37

see him put in the Ring of Honor, he will be honored. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, they, they have, there’s been the NFL then came in on the back end of all. I mean, I’m moving ahead. The story here, let’s stay back in January. The one thing that I hear when I’m at a cocktail party with Bill Cole in Ocean City from people who, within 30 seconds, when I speak to these people, I know whether they’ve read any of it or none of it, because you didn’t read some of it. You either followed the story, and I have pointed out the Bal Jay Z never even followed up with the two following stories to even put headlines on their website. So the media here dirted this story, your story, and didn’t even bring to light how big of a story. It was the team is now pretending, la la la la la, like Chad Steele, la la la la la, that like none of this ever happened, was football, football, football like there’s barely been any acknowledgement out of the building, the organization, even the league. I guess it would be if he kicks again, you know, if it comes back up and he winds up being a kicker again, there will the story will come back up. But if he never kicks again, the next time he’s heard from, could be entering the Ring of Honor, or is he a Hall of Famer six years if he doesn’t kick again, I would just say that the beginning of this, the story I hear the most is for people that didn’t read it in any way, is, you know, this might have been the reason he wasn’t cooking so good last year. You know, he won very good kicker last year. And, you know, I bet there’s, there’s big, dirty journalists, you know, if weren’t for you meddlers, you know, investigating, the investigation of, you know, sexual predators in football locker rooms that this might have bled in the last year. My understanding from Justin Fenton, who sits at the top of your journalistic Richter scale, is that this really happened in January. So the

Chris Korman  12:33

tip came January 9. I mean, the tip came January 9 at like 230 in the afternoon.

Nestor Aparicio  12:38

Had you heard anything about this in October, November, December, nothing, not one

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Chris Korman  12:41

word. And when all we did, I mean, I tell people this all day, this was incredible investigative reporting. Okay, I want to say that up top, it was incredible investigative reporting, but all we did was get the tip. I asked my beat reporters, have you ever heard this? They said, No, and then they put it in Twitter. They just, they just searched in Twitter, Justin Tucker massage. And multiple tweets from multiple years came forth saying, like Justin Tucker’s band from area spas, Justin Tucker. Justin Tucker, you know, like all this, you know, jokes about it, serious things about it. Eventually, we found a Facebook post where a woman was talking about it. We tracked that woman down. We tracked the other women down like we had not we knew nothing about

Nestor Aparicio  13:21

it. Julie sat with me for an hour. Julie sharp was a part of this, and really the lead reporter in doing this, sitting with these women. And this is the part where I’m with Julie on a zoom. Julie didn’t come out, but Julie did a zoom with me, and I’m like, so these women that had this happen, they’re scared about you know, why is your story coming out now? You why these women date? Why didn’t they call the police? You told me, didn’t they have bosses? You know, ain’t there some trail? Yeah, there’s all of that. And you guys literally went through these girls and their girlfriends, their boyfriends, people in their lives, their family members, their bosses,

Chris Korman  13:56

written documentation. I mean, you know, there was a woman who kept a letter, you know that that she wrote to her boss, and, you know, it was, like, crinkled up in she like Julie. Heard her like she said, like, can you find this letter? But she journalism. She heard people. She heard her taking it out. You know, so, but, yeah, totally,

Nestor Aparicio  14:15

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she had to engage with these 16 women, for seven women who are like, I’m gonna tell you a story I’ve only told my mother and father and, you know, a couple of friends, and it’s outlandish. And every time I see that royal farms commercial, it pisses me off and like and now, I mean, Julie sharp was in a position to be a therapist at that moment, as well as a journalist as well as a police officer. She’s 60 Minutes. She’s Jane Miller, you know, she’s get Gelfman. You know, there’s no apparent money that’s gonna flow. And this is not a they called you and banded together. These women didn’t even know each other, right? These were isolated things in all I mean, so predatory, if it’s true. Know that he went around the city to different places and did something that any guy I know would think I’m going to get my ass kicked if I try to pull that that maneuver anywhere, and the fact that he did it brandishing the NFL logo, the Ravens Logo The Do you know who I am and what I can get away with? Dude? It’s a revolting story that I know the Ravens want to run from, but they shouldn’t be looking to intimidate you, me, or lie or honor him, or run down to the White House with Donald Trump through all of this and the NFL running away from it everything I would have predicted nine months ago, including the public’s ignorance, in a general sense, to all of it. What percentage of Ravens fans know the truth? Want to know the truth? Or in your Billy you even said, like, I just want to bet on it and go cheer firm and eat chicken and be a fan and drink beer. I don’t really want to know that the Hall of Fame kicker was out doing this to people like my sister or my daughter or my wife?

Bill Cole  16:06

Oh yeah. I mean, maybe a little bit of like, I’m the guy who didn’t actually read it. I don’t read any of it, but I didn’t need to, because I assume it’s true pretty much about all of them, like the behavior that goes on and, I mean, it only takes what, like, two months, and then we hear about something else, and then two months and we hear about

Nestor Aparicio  16:28

something else, and then they draft the guy who’s got two allegations, and they hope he sacks Alan three times

Bill Cole  16:34

on Monday. I don’t have any expectation that these are our model citizens, that they behave well, you know, somewhere along the way, I guess I just kind of put my morals in a plastic bag and stuck it in the closet and continue to watch and, you know, like, I don’t know that doesn’t

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Nestor Aparicio  16:55

make Thompson and Wes Moore and say you’ve given $1.2 billion to these organizations that are intimidating anyone who smells and thinks like a journalist, not just intimidating them. I mean, give me the name tabloid file like, you know, going discrediting the journalists who are legitimately doing the real work.

Bill Cole  17:17

Yeah, I at the goat of law firms. I get it

Nestor Aparicio  17:21

breathing down. We’ve talked about I could not have reported to Justin Tucker story. That’s what’s become clear to me over the last two years, is that there is now a point where, if I saw player X coach X owner X assault someone, right, I would have to deal with why they dealt with in even thinking about reporting that in

Bill Cole  17:46

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my head, I was wondering if you guys ever contemplated like, here’s this story. We’re not going to put a name in it. We just want you to read this information and see whether you believe it’s credible, right? And everyone in the world would read that information and agree that it’s credible that an NFL player would behave that way. They never would have picked Justin talk. They wouldn’t. But now you’ve landed credibility with them, and you’re like, the next day, you release like, oh, by the way, that story. Here’s who that was about, and here’s why we know and thought about it. And now all of a sudden that entire conversation has shifted, because even though, I mean, they’re only arguing because they love the purple, right? And that’s church, and we used to talk about that all the time, like their church on Sundays is to go tailgate, go to the game, you know, do watch this, have friends over, cook the chili, whatever it is. That’s their life. That’s part of like, who they are 100% and you’re, you’re, that’s not fair. Don’t

Nestor Aparicio  18:44

disrupt my identity crisis for a long time, in regard to the Orioles, 35 years ago, when I started doing sports radio, to the ravens, 30 years ago, when they came to town and behaved in a well, the Ray Lewis aside, and art modell, and you could go through all of that, but in a general sense, were accountable. You know, they weren’t threatening to throw me out. I mean, I had a journalism moment. And Chris, by the way, Chris Corman’s here were constants and Timonium. We’re having, we’re gonna eat some crab soup. My favorite thing to eat here, by the way, at the Oyster Rockefeller, which I’m definitely gonna get today. And when you have lunch here, Chris, you got to get the crab Imperial, because it’ll make you feel like a king. About eight years ago, the Ravens played a game in Chicago. It was the day that the storm blew in, and Luke and I and my wife were there in Chicago in the press box, and Ozzie Newsome took ill. I saw it in the elevator. I saw him not looking good. I was in the elevator downstairs, underneath the bows of the stadium, there was an ambulance. The locker room was thrown apart. They were trying to get the media out of the locker room. As a journalist in me, I smell, you know. I mean, come on, man, be covered sports. 35 years at that time, 33 years of time. So I smelled something. And. And I went to a couple people who knew some things and whatever, and they told me, Ozzy’s having a having a problem. He’s the general manager of the team. He’s a Hall of Famer. He’s the architect of the team. He’s having some sort of physical problem. In front of everyone, I’m in the locker room, there are four journalists there. You know me, Rebecca Hensley, Luke, handful of us. I guess Sandusky is not really a journalist. Maybe we can, but I mean, he’s there. Is that news that Ozzie Newsome is not coming home with the team and is in a gurney, and I’m watching, I watched Ozzie Newsome get wheeled into the back of an ambulance. I’m the only one who saw it, literally the only one who saw it, because I waited around, because I knew something was up and I knew it was going on. So many locker five people in locker room told me, oz, he’s having a physical problem right now. Do you report that or do you not report that? What the hell am I doing there if I’m not reporting that? Yeah, I’m a journalist. You

Chris Korman  20:59

got to talk to people about it. You ask, ask the team for state. I witnessed

Nestor Aparicio  21:04

him leaving the stadium in an AM, literally saw him sitting in the back of the that’s that’s about, as sources I can get. Yeah, right, dude, they never treated me the same way again and threw me out after that. I was never treated the same way again, ever by any of them, they saw it as a betrayal of whatever. Yeah, and I’m like, I threw, I threw the NST text up, and my hands were shaking a little bit, because it was big news, you know. And it was such big news that I rolled my Wheeler out of the Chicago at a stadium, Soldier Field, walked on that windy, horrible day, over to the L train, took the L app to Midway, and as I walked into the airport, I walked into Harry Carey’s, and Peter King was it was like the lead store in Sunday Night Football. It was like underneath that Ozzy. And you know why they thought it was a credible story? Because I reported it and I was there, and I wouldn’t make that up, and nobody would call me tablet like nobody thought, well, Nestor is putting his ass on the line. 30 years of journalism to report such a thing. You all put your ass on the line reporting such a thing, right? Like they to your point. This was me seeing Ozzie and saying, That’s news. Is that news? Or is that not? I went to school for this shit. You know what. I mean. It’s news, right? So whether Chad Steele likes that, Kevin Byrne didn’t like that dick. None of them liked that dick. Cast didn’t like when I broke this every year I broke that schedule. Dick drove dick, dick cash shut down their computer system trying to figure out who was bleeding me to schedule. And it didn’t even come from his building, because I’m a source journalist throughout the league, and I’ve been doing it 25 years, you know, and it was important to me to get to get the schedule first, to people help me.

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Chris Korman  22:44

But ravens employees do that day with no computer. They were just he shut

Nestor Aparicio  22:49

down their email. I’m telling you, look it up. I mean, it happened, but these, this is how paranoid that building is, yeah, but I feel as I sit next to you knowing what you do for a living. It’s unbelievable to me to see your journalism attacked in that way, and even Billy, you should be embarrassed not reading the pieces to know what like really happened, because when we circulate in this city, it was the biggest story in the city for six months. It’s not anymore, because it got buried, right? It could still Tyler. Luke misses the kick on Monday night or Sunday night. You know, Tucker will be the story. But, like, there are still people that doubt that this happened. John Harbaugh has basically nothing. I know, like been like Schultz in Hogan’s here. I know nothing. None of them know anything. I find it to be disturbing on behalf of their wives and their daughters and their sisters. I do, and I know John’s wife, daughter, sister, mother, like I just that nobody has stood up for these women in the way that they probably should, and and I I admire the work you’ve done, but I also understand, like we’re getting to the point where if you’re not doing it, there ain’t nobody to do it, and if you don’t have a team of law firms behind you, people like me can’t do it. And Chad Steele knows that,

Chris Korman  24:11

yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s tough work to do. It’s, and it takes, it takes a Harvard trained lawyer to make you feel that you are going to be okay, you know, because you’re going against a very powerful entity with lots of money that wants to protect its brand more than any you know, the Ravens brand is incredibly valuable, and Justin Tucker was a big part of that, and an important part of that, and and a part that that hit other, you know, there’s, there are lots of fans that that just want to watch the football and love the football and but he hit Catholics, he hit opera fans. He made opera fans feel like, oh, I, I can watch football. This is, this is a guy that, you know, and just, and just, he just made people feel like, I don’t have to understand. And run gaps to watch football and care about it. So he was a huge part of the marketing effort, but also just, I mean, this is also a guy that they spent a lot of time with. I mean, John Harbaugh spent more time with Justin Tucker than any other Raven, right? Like, sure, it was that way the long, you know, he saw Justin Tucker get married, have a kid grow up as a kicker. You know, he was. This was not a guy who was supposed to be the best kicker of all time. This was an undrafted free agent who maybe was going to beat out Billy Conde. So, you know, it’s, it’s, and they live in a bubble. Can’t use

25:39

words like that. Yeah, that’s tough. That’s tough.