Josh Allen looked happy to win his first NFL MVP Award while we all know that Lamar Jackson has his eyes on a bigger prize – even if he deserved his third trophy for the league’s best player. Luke Jones and Nestor discuss “most valuable” and voters and All-Pro Awards and “Honors” TV shows that are dreadful. And the Canton knocks of glory that didn’t come (just yet) for Yanda and Suggs.
Nestor Aparicio and Luke Jones discussed the aftermath of Lamar Jackson not winning the MVP award, with Jones noting the disappointment among Ravens fans. They also debated the Hall of Fame prospects of Terrell Suggs and Marshal Yanda, concluding that while they are deserving, first-ballot induction is unlikely. They highlighted the rarity of first-ballot Hall of Famers since 2000, with only 42 out of 420 inductees fitting this category. The conversation also touched on the subjective nature of MVP awards and the influence of voter biases and personal experiences.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Lamar Jackson, MVP debate, Hall of Fame, Terrell Suggs, Marshall Yanda, NFL Honors, Josh Allen, Ravens fans, award shows, voting process, Pro Bowl, Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes, Hall of Fame voters, statistical credentials
SPEAKERS
Nestor Aparicio, Luke Jones, Speaker 1
Nestor Aparicio 00:01
Welcome home. We are W, N, S, T. Am 1570 Towson, Baltimore. I just realized I’m losing my voice during a couple Super Bowl week. It is all brought to you by the Maryland lottery. At some point it’ll be over, just like the Super Bowl itself, the magic eight ball. We’ve been rubbing this all week all over town. I’m wearing my fade Lee shirt because, I mean, you listen to the show, you know what an idiot I am. I did not do the show on Tuesday at fadelies. It was, I like to say it was force majeure, but really, I just locked my equipment, the trunk of my car and sent my car to Washington, DC. So we’re going to do fade leads two weeks from now. We’re going to be at libs grill on Wednesday, and by the time you hear this cup Super Bowl will be complete. We had over 30 guests. All of it will be up to Baltimore positive after the Super Bowl, because I’ve been busy this week because, you know, Justin Tucker and the Orioles signing some guy I had to Google. And now Luke Jones is here, and it is the weekend. There’s a big game on Sunday, Luke, maybe you know that or not, and I woke up on Friday morning, as you did, to many, many, many angry people that Lamar Jackson did not win his third MVP.
Luke Jones 01:11
Yeah, I mean, a tough night for Ravens fans who tuned in to NFL honors, not just Lamar Jackson losing out to Josh Allen. And we’ll get into that certainly, but
Nestor Aparicio 01:19
if you’re two minutes, Snoop was horrible. I went to bed like, I watched the first five minutes all the re like, people didn’t know whether to laugh. Some of it was mean, some of it was weird. Like, all of it. And I’m like, whoo, stupid chisel that you know, it was really,
Luke Jones 01:35
it was really just a reminder to me that why I don’t watch any awards shows, because they’re terrible.
Nestor Aparicio 01:40
Can I? Can I say that before we even get going? I thought about this last night. I’m two minutes in. I’m my wife’s like, there’s Ray she’s elbowing me, Ray Lewis. And I’m like, I’m asleep. I’m like, no, no, no. I’m like, I don’t like any of these shows. I don’t like the Grammys, I don’t like the Oscars, I don’t like the Tonys, and I’ve never watched them. I don’t like parades. I mean, except when I’m in them, and it’s a Super Bowl parade. But I didn’t really like the second one because I thought it was kind of like, you know, dangerous. But I don’t like parades, and I don’t like honor shows. So there I I just want to be cranky before the weekend goes, because I’ve done all this nice stuff charity. I’ve had everything happen this week. I don’t like award shows. So thank you for telling saying that,
Luke Jones 02:21
yeah, well, and you have Terrell Suggs and Marshall yanda, who, look, I think you and I talked about this at a few different times. I mean, even going back to when Marshall yonder retired, we started talking about that. I think as Ravens fans, it’s easy to get caught up in the first ballot thing when you have Jonathan Ogden, one of the greatest left tackles of all time, Ray Lewis, maybe the best middle linebacker of all time, but certainly in the top three or four, and same with Ed Reed at the safety position. So they were all very deserving slam dunk, first ballot Hall of Famers. And the voters got those right. When you look at Suggs, when you look at yonda. I think there are two guys that are deserving of the Hall of Fame. I think they will be in at some point in time. But we have to remember, when you’re talking about a first ballot Hall of Famer, that is a truly elite group within an exclusive club. You go back to the year 2000 I think there have been 42 first year ballot hall of famers in the net in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. So when you look at Suggs, when you look at yonda, sure, I see Hall of Fame credentials. Do I see guys that are going to jump the line when you’re talking about jared allen, for example, who did finally get the call on Thursday night, or talking about someone like gyre Evans at the guard position, and knowing the history of guards and how slowly voters are to come around to vote in that position group, generally speaking, and not that many of them, I think it was more more expected than not that they weren’t going to get in. And as our pal Chris pike put out on Twitter, and we retweeted that they didn’t make the final seven even. But the fact that they were finalists their first year of eligibility, I think bodes well that they’ll get in eventually. But wasn’t this year. It may not be next year. May not be the year after that, as as many have talked about the the voting credentials, the voting process is tightened up a little bit in thoughts of not, maybe not putting in quite as many because, well,
Nestor Aparicio 04:25
it’s not a fight anymore. They don’t get in a room and do it. They would be doing that on Saturday, traditionally now it literally is a presentation and a vote. So you, you know, you put names in the fish bowls, and if the fish bowl has enough names, they get in. If they don’t, they don’t get in. And, you know, I’ve talked to 11, I think, 11, Hall of Fame voters since Christmas, you know, going back to Howard Balzer and even Vic Carucci, when the Ravens played the bills, every city has one. I’ve not had scar. Scott Garcia on the show lately. Um. Because I don’t. I don’t even know what he thinks. I don’t think he even writes what he thinks. I don’t. He’s not a very public dude to talk. He didn’t have a Facebook he’s not that guy. But I don’t know how it goes or what. But I talked to all of those guys. They all think yond is getting in. First. They all think Suggs is getting in. Steve Smith, I think nobody jumped on the table and say he’s getting in. Nobody’s done that with me. So I don’t, I don’t know. I mean, Heinz Ward’s had trouble getting in. So, and the wide receiver position is that
Luke Jones 05:29
position? You’re right. I mean, Reggie Wayne, Tory hold. I mean, these are guys that, statistically, because the way the game has trended over three or four decades, have deserving profile.
Nestor Aparicio 05:40
Measure them against Lance. All worth Yeah, but like, then there’s the part where they get it’s held against Tory hole that Kurt Warner throw him the ball. It’s held against Reggie Wayne, and I did it that Peyton Manning throw him the ball. So there is a point. And I think it was held against Lamar that he had great players around him this year, and Josh Allen had to do it with who’s in my huddle, you know? So I do think these votes become, let me say this, the only thing I hate more than the award shows themselves are the awards. So you know what I mean, whether it’s team, good guy, you know that you give to the guy that doesn’t even come out and take the podium when he loses the game, whether it’s MVP this year or like, and it’s all so subjective. I saw you drew up, and I had Jamal on this week. Jamal Lewis, who should have been to 2003 MVP, and 22 years later, he’s still screwed. And where’s Eddie Murray still screwed from 83 so, you know, like, and I disagree, but going back to the point where race was involved in that, you know, like, yeah, ripped him was a shortstop, though. Like, yeah, I think, I think that’s black. That was the problem with Jim rice. So back in 1980 8182 because he was the best player in baseball for a while. So, and then, and then struggled to get into the Hall of Fame after that, because the sports writers were white. So as we have, you know, Nazi South Africans taking a peek at all of our South our Social Security this week, I I still look at racism as a key component of a lot of things, classism for Marvin Miller in Hall of Fame. So I’ve seen all of the politics of all this, plus I’ve met the voters, and I know who the voters are, and they’re human. I think it’s harder with the Cooperstown thing, where they to send ballots out to a million people. The Heisman thing was ridiculous. My radio station had a Heisman vote at one point for some dude who did once a week reports around here. I’m not kidding. Like the bar was low. The Hall of Fame thing has never been low. It’s always been like experts, of experts, of experts. But I still think, when it comes down to it, for Lamar, getting into the Hall of Fame, if Lamar, there’s no tragic happens, right? Lamar is going to be in the Hall of Fame the three MVPs versus the two MVPs. Well, you say that, I don’t know who the voters are in 2038
Luke Jones 08:03
you’ll look at the list of two time MVPs. They’re all getting they’re all in the Hall of Fame, and most of them are first ballot guys. I mean, Kurt
Nestor Aparicio 08:08
Warner waited a little while. Eli Manning didn’t get in, all right? I mean, he might not a two time MVP. He’s not, but he’s not. He’s going to have. Well, it’s like when bill extends the ring and says, See the ring, they say that they can never take it away from you, but they’ll try, you know, in the case of Eli, but you need it,
Luke Jones 08:28
but you need to have both, though, well, and you don’t need to have both. Fran tarkinson never won a title. Dan Fauci never won a title. Dan Moreno never won a title. Lamar is going to get in the Hall of Fame. Look, Lamar should have been MVP. I’m not going to sit here and go nuts about it, because I’m with you, especially in a world where Lamar Jackson himself has talked way more about caring about making it to a Super Bowl than winning another MVP. But if we’re trying to look at this objectively, when you look at statistics, when you look at the fact that Lamar was first team all Pro, and the same group of voters voted Josh Allen second team, all Pro. Yeah, Josh Allen’s the MVP. Like, you just have to explain that to me, like I’m five. It doesn’t make any sense to me. But that said, Yeah, Josh Allen had a terrific here. Yeah, the narrative element of whatever the heck vote Most Valuable Player means Josh Allen had some things working for him in terms of expectations for the bills, Stefan Diggs and Gabe Davis signing elsewhere, the fact that the bills had only one other initial Pro Bowl selection before you get into injury replacements, and how ridiculous that’s become. So so I’ll hear that and and look, I want to tread carefully in accusing the AP voters of disrespecting Lamar Jackson, when you consider last year, Lamar did not have this overwhelming, statistically brilliant 2023 campaign, yet he won by a 49 to one. And first place vote, you know, deficit, right? I mean, he was nearly unanimous again in a year where his profile certainly didn’t suggest being unanimous like he did in 2019 so I think it’s, I disagree with it, and I’ll put over the Pro Football Writers of America, which I’m a part of our group, which is larger than the 50 voters that the AP panel was, got voted Lamar Jackson as MVP. So I’ll put the pfwa over, but at the same time, look, let’s call a spade a spade, other than fans in Baltimore and other than fans in Buffalo right now, it’s a consolation prize. Patrick mahomes in Kansas City are playing for another Super Bowl on Sunday. So, and I kind of said that after in the aftermath of the Ravens losing in Buffalo, that if the bills went to Kc and lost themselves, what does it really do for Josh Allen’s legacy compared to Lamar Jackson’s, they’re they’re still in the same boat, right? I mean, they’re still both trying to get to a Super Bowl, let alone win one. So, you know, I mean, look, we’re also talking about an NFL MVP award that once went to a kicker 40 years ago, right? I mean, which is the height of absurdity for anyone who knows anything about value in the National Football League, let alone years ago, when running backs and other positions were winning it more frequently. Quarterbacks are the most valuable. But there’s certainly arguments to be made for Josh Allen, I’m not going to sit here and stand on the table and be outraged about it and again at the end of the day, I said two months ago, I really didn’t care that much about MVP. I think, I think it’s almost become a generational thing. I think people that are really wrapped up in MVP seems to trend a little bit younger. You know, it’s very online. Ravens fans and Bills fans were at their throats the last couple months, debating about it to the point where, if you were a Lamar Jackson guy, you were tearing down Josh Allen. And if you were a Josh Allen guy, you were tearing down Lamar Jackson. I saw lots of ugliness in that way, not not from media, but from both fan bases, when the reality is they’re both tremendous football players. Lamar would have been my pick. I’m not going to shy away from that, and I feel pretty strongly about that. At the same time, I kind of sit here and say Josh Allen wasn’t extremely valuable this year. I just found the the process of voting one as your first team all pro selection, and then suddenly you’re voting for another quarterback as your MVP. I don’t know that. That just seems kind of a that seems like kind of a cop out to me. That seems kind of a offensive, kind of possess position where you know, if you think Josh Allen’s MVP, he should be first team all pro selection as well, that that’s that’s the part of it that doesn’t make much sense
Nestor Aparicio 12:49
to me. Maybe Ira Kaufman said to me, I don’t want to implicate him. You have to go back and listen to him, because they’re all running together at this point, especially after a couple Super Bowl this week. But I think Ira told me he voted for one for MVP and the other for all Pro, one of the guys told me that just doesn’t make sense to me, all right. I mean, it doesn’t to me either. Right, right? So, so again. I mean, again, wait, I haven’t said it out loud. Lamar should have been the MVP. Yeah. And look, both these guys, and I didn’t call the voters racist, because they voted for him twice before. In regard to Jim rice, I’m calling the I just want to clarify, because some jackass will come on here. Jim rice dealt with racism. Lamar Jackson’s dealing with fatigue. I think I don’t even know what it is, or the fact that there’s they looked at Josh Allen and said he didn’t have any talent around him. I, you know, like he didn’t last players around him less,
Luke Jones 13:43
less of it, sure. And Derek Henry was a finalist for AP Offensive Player of the Year. Ran for 1900 yards. The Ravens had eight other Pro Bowl players before. Again, I’m going off the initial Pro Bowl list. I know that guys are added to the game, but
Nestor Aparicio 13:56
if Jalen Hurts had lamar’s numbers, would they have used it against him because of saquon? I don’t know. I mean, but of course, if you had those numbers say Quan win the rush, because that’s the way offense is. I mean, the numbers are the numbers. The offense is the the offense. Um, Lamar was worthy and didn’t win. And and when you are the Hall of Fame voter in 2037 here, you’re representing Baltimore, you’ll get to be the one to step up and say, well, Lamar only won a blank amount of MVPs, and he got screwed in 25 Yeah. Sorry. But I
Luke Jones 14:29
would also say there’s probably, you know, assuming he stays relatively healthy for the next he’ll have other credentials, sticks to 10 years, you know, whatever it is, you know, I’m not saying he’s gonna play to his late 30s, but there’s no reason to think he can’t play to his mid 30s, especially with the way that his game has matured. He should have plenty of opportunities. I mean, say what you want about getting to a Super Bowl and what the AFC has looked like with going from Tom Brady to Patrick mahomes and the chiefs. But that hasn’t, you know? Hasn’t prevented him from
Nestor Aparicio 15:01
I see this right now, dude, and, you know, and this has nothing to do with voting. If he doesn’t win, he’s not going to smell as good as Eli Manning’s. Eli Manning still waiting to get in, you know? I mean, and Eli Manning still might be waiting to get in, I don’t know. You know, there’s, there’s no saying it’s going to feel any different next year. His stats are going to be a stat. Stats are going to be his stats. The body of work is going to be the body of work. Um, yeah, I don’t know. I mean, and I’ve talked about Tucker this week too, where he’s the greatest kicker ever, Vinatieri is having trouble getting in right. And then if they put venetarian, who would be next, if in a Terry went, now, Tucker’s probably the next guy, and he’s at least 789, I mean, I don’t think he’s done kicking. I mean, I think somebody gonna hire him. He will kick again. It won’t be here as a royal farm spokesperson. I’m trying out for that job beginning next week, by the way. So I ordered the chicken suit already. I would say this hall of fame thing. It’s very it’s fun to talk about hell, if you’ve listened to the radio station, been talking about it for three weeks here, because I’ve been bringing guys on. But I do think it’s I hear so many people say he’s a Hall of Famer. He, you just said it. Lamar is a Hall of Famer. Emily is, he is he is on the pathway, on the on the edge of excellent, on the but if you put the ballots after those people today, if he dies tomorrow in a plane crash, like Roberto Alomar or Roberto Clemente, I should say, and they have to put him on the ballot next year. He’s in.
Luke Jones 16:33
I mean,
Nestor Aparicio 16:35
because that’s what the voters are going to say, what ahead of whom he’s on the ballot next year, and I’m going to put him in ahead of subs, ahead of yanda, ahead of you’re
Luke Jones 16:48
presenting the worst case scenario for a guys. I mean he’s
Nestor Aparicio 16:52
scenario for him is he never goes back to a championship game and doesn’t never plays in a Super Bowl, never wins one. I just that’s a case for Josh Allen too, who just won an MVP. He’s not going to the Hall of Fame either, unless you start,
8Luke Jones 17:06
I’m going off of the fact that he’s a two time MVP. He’s already the all time leading rusher in the NFL for quarterbacks. I mean, he I don’t. I love that you’re going to make the
Nestor Aparicio 17:16
case because you’re going to be the next presenter. You just don’t. There’s not
Luke Jones 17:18
going to have to be a case to be made. I mean, assuming, assuming he doesn’t become the worst quarterback in in football overnight for some mysterious reason, or or does something heinous off the field, or something like that, he’s going to be in well, there’s
Nestor Aparicio 17:32
going to be a point where he runs around in his career and he’s slow, and he gets the hell beaten out of him, and he he is going to be 32 at some point, and he’s either going to have those trophies and these MVPs and rack all that up, the yards he’s going to have, he’s going to like, I’m not saying he’s not a Hall of Famer. I’m saying when it comes time to put a guy in the Hall of Fame, you either stand up, say it’s Ray Lewis, and you sit down, and he gets in, which I think Fitzgerald’s going to be that guy next year, based on dude I’ve spent, yeah,
Luke Jones 18:02
Fitzgerald, the first ballot guy. I’ve spent four hours
Nestor Aparicio 18:05
discussing this topic with the people in the room over the last month. So I know the way they vote and and I’ve heard and I picked their brains about position and this and that and the way it used to be versus the way it is. It’s not opening up anytime soon. It’s not going to be different people. As long as John McLean’s alive and Jason Cole’s a lot, these are going to be the people who are voting for the next couple of years. I just think the Eli Manning thing is interesting to me, where you say about Lamar, he has to win a Super Bowl, and Manning’s won them, and then you say to Manning, well, that’s not good enough either. I just think there’s different criteria, different rooms, I mean, and I I just don’t. I’m very hazy about just saying that guy’s a Hall of Famer, because the room thinks differently. It just does. And I don’t. Pete Rose is a Hall of Famer. Dude. He ain’t in there. And he died not getting in there. He ain’t even getting in there. Barry Bonds ain’t ever getting it, you know. So those
Luke Jones 19:01
are extreme cases, though. Nestor, okay, if Lamar Jackson has a PED scandal or something like that, then, okay, we’ll revisit it. But if we’re just talking Tucker’s
Nestor Aparicio 19:09
gonna have, you know, an issue now, right? So you know, at least there’s gonna be a check mark that they’re just not gonna stand. Also
Luke Jones 19:14
a position. It’s also a position that barely any kickers ever make it, right? You know? I mean, that’s part of what Marshall yonder is gonna face. Well,
Nestor Aparicio 19:20
that’s why we keep talking about him as a Hall of Famer. Hall of Famer. He might be 2040 getting in Tucker. I’m talking about like, and so to talk about him in 25 is he’s a Hall of Famer. That’s why I can’t say that about Lamar, even though I agree with everything you’re saying. Like, if he died tomorrow, you had to get in. He’s on the ballot. There’d be some emotional to put him in, but there wouldn’t be Steve. I would bet you, because
Luke Jones 19:45
I would bet you my mortgage that he would get in. Davis got in. Terrell. Davis had, like, a three year peak of being amazing, and that was enough at the running back position. Terrell
Nestor Aparicio 19:55
Owens was the biggest dick ever to his teammates. You could stand up and say he was. Thrown out of five organizations. How can you call them a hall of fam? You’re
Luke Jones 20:03
giving them these extreme examples, though, like, you know,
Nestor Aparicio 20:07
well, Lamar is going to be, um, pretty extreme, right? I mean, we don’t have many African American quarterbacks, and had to think, is there any in Warren? Warren Moon was the first ballot Hall of Famer and never got to a Super Bowl. I mean, there you go. There’s one right there from years ago, right? Good. And again, we, we’re I’m not saying Lamar doesn’t deserve it. I’m just saying by the time Lamar gets into the room, they’re going to be bad seasons and interceptions and things that happen at the end of his career, like Eli Manning getting benched. And it’s just funny, man, guys hang around a while
8Luke Jones 20:37
Eli Manning, the only thing Eli Manning really has to even be in the discussion is the two Super Bowls. He’s a four time MB or Pro Bowl quarterback. So
Nestor Aparicio 20:50
Flacco had won another one. It would be similar,
Luke Jones 20:54
sure Kurt Warner
Nestor Aparicio 20:55
kind of had that a
Luke Jones 20:56
little bit, right? Kurt Warner won a couple MVPs, though, and put up statistical brilliance, you know, albeit not, not in the same way that Peyton Manning did. Let me be clear. I’m not saying Lamar, if he retired tomorrow, is the best quarterback of all time, or in the top five, but what he’s done from a historic to
Nestor Aparicio 21:14
revolutionize the game, yeah,
Speaker 1 21:16
I mean, and this is the Eli Manning thing. Eli Manning. The biggest argument going for him is what you often hear about Hall of Fames. Can you tell the story of the history of the league without that individual? Right? I mean, you hear that a lot, and Eli Manning would fit that profile, I would say Lamar Jackson, even if he does not win a Super Bowl, what he has done and what he’s represented, and the trend that we’re now seeing and acknowledging Josh Allen’s been part of that. Patrick mahomes certainly has been a big part of that, although you don’t think of him as running as much, but he Hey, you watch him in the playoffs. He scrambles plays Russell Wilson,
Nestor Aparicio 21:50
a Hall of Famer, yeah, yeah.
Luke Jones 21:53
I Okay. I think so. I, you know, I’m not sitting here saying he’s going to be a first ballot guy like Drew Brees next year or Tom Brady in a couple years. But I
Nestor Aparicio 22:03
would say right this minute, Russell Wilson is as accomplished as Lamar in regard to winning championships and a body of work. Have lot longer body of work. And I think he, he it would be tough to get him in. And that’s why I’m saying if nine and eight next year, for some reason, and they never pick up. The ravens are really good right now, and they’ve been good for a while now. They have a scandal to deal with, and they have cap issues, and they’re going to draft late again, and they have just and hardball is getting older and more tired, and just in a general sense, I don’t know that they’re going to be 13 and four three of the next four years, like they’ve been five of the last six years, or when they’ve been healthy, right? So I can’t. I can never in the middle of a career. And I hear this ish from broadcasters. He’s a hall Tony Romo, John Harbaugh, greatest Hall of Fame. I don’t know. I don’t know. I could stand up make a hell of a case against John Harbaugh being a Hall of Famer and making all that that he had the best players. He had the best put Ozzy in the Hall of Fame because o picked the players like I could do all of that. When you don’t win enough, or you lose out on a third M, V, P, that would sort of be that thing you can get in the room with in case they don’t win Super Bowls, in case things don’t go the way we think they’re going to go. And that’s why I never anymore this century, I’ve stopped calling that guy a Hall of Famer and that guy a Hall of Famer and a future Hall of Famer, unless it’s a stand up guy, you know, and I Lamar would be a stand up guy if he had a championship, right? I mean, a third MVP, like all of this stuff, I don’t think he’s a stand up, sit down guy yet, when Russell Wilson’s also in the conference, if they’re both in the room at the same time, Eli Manning’s in the room. I don’t even know what other quarterbacks are coming down the line that are going to get in the room, the muddy, but
Luke Jones 23:50
that’s the way the rules will be next year, and he’ll get in right away.
Nestor Aparicio 23:53
Well, the real vote, the real vote works like if you’re going to put reason right away, then yonder. That’s one more year. Yonder Smith, all these other people are going to have to wait. And I think that that’s where, when we get into the room and we talk long and hard about it, the MVP losing, the MVP will be not used against Lamar, but it can really help him to be a sit down guy once it comes. But that will happen when he wins a Super Bowl. I mean, the minute Lamar wins a Super Bowl, I will stop the nonsense of he’s not his stand up, sit down guy, but I think it takes that, and I’m not sure that’s going to happen for him, or Josh Allen, or I’m not sure Jalen Hurts is going to play in two Super Bowls, losing both and not go to the Hall of Fame, right? This is where the Hall of Fame is, is made, right? Winning these games, and if mahomes had lost, got the three or four of them lost. And lost him. We think of him more like Jim Kelly than we think of him like Tom Brady, even though Jim but Jim Kelly’s in the Hall of Fame. So again, all Jim Kelly did was get them the hall Super Bowl. Did was get the Broncos to the Super Bowl on his back. And he wasn’t considered that guy until Terrell Davis went over the top and and got. Rings and and I look, I hope Lamar gets his ring. I hope buffalo wins at some point. I hope they both go on the Hall of Fame, and I hope you’re the voter for it by the time it gets there. But in the meantime, these MVPs and all pros and all this, they stack up, and all they’re really used for is this argument. It doesn’t, you know, it doesn’t. And the list of stats
Luke Jones 25:19
and the list of guys who have won two or more. Patrick mahomes, who’s he is he could retire tomorrow, correct? Yeah. So Kelsey, by the way, even though I think Lamar is way closer to that than you’re giving him credit for. Anyway. Kurt Warner, he had to wait. He wasn’t a first ballot guy, but he got in. Steve Young, first ballot. Joe Montana, first ballot. Jim Brown, Brett Favre, Johnny Unitas, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, I mean, we’re talking about all Hall of Famers or first ballot guys, other than Kurt Warner. So, I mean, I just, I think, I think you’d have to project Such a deviation from what Lamar Jackson has been over his first seven years in the league to not think that he’s not going to be a first ballot guy. And you know, should he have won MVP this year? Yeah, I think so. But I also think he’s
Nestor Aparicio 26:09
pissed off this morning, right? He didn’t get the MVP the whole way. Cared that that much this time around. I love frustrated, Lamar. I love I’ll prove you wrong, Lamar, it’s who he is, yeah,
Luke Jones 26:22
but I’ll be totally honest with you. And even over the course of the season, and obviously you get to the month of December, I sensed a different Lamar being asked about that, even more so than last year, where I don’t think he really cared about it that much. In fact, I was having the conversation with another media member briefly the other day, wondering if Lamar was going to show up in New Orleans, even if he had one, just because of the fact that he wanted another trophy there this week. I mean, he did, and he was extremely crushed over what happened in Buffalo. So again, you know, President came out and talked to the
Nestor Aparicio 27:01
media about it, though, too. I want to point that point that out, sure, sure, sure. But, you
Luke Jones 27:04
know, I mean, so much of this going back to just kind of the beginning of the conversation. I mean, what does MVP mean? What exactly does a Hall of Famer make? I think, in this era where we have more and more numbers to try to quantify what used to be the unquantifiable whether you’re talking about wins above replacement in baseball, whether you’re talking about numbers like pro football references approximate value, for example, which is along the lines of war. You know, Jay Jaffe has used the the jaws measurement in terms of trying to stack up Baseball Hall of Famers credentials and pro football reference has the Hall of Fame monitor, which is similar in that light. Well,
Nestor Aparicio 27:51
the truck scandals made the Baseball Hall of Fame a toilet. Yeah. I mean, and my last I mean, you know my cousins and all. I mean, there’s nothing I’m more proud of than my last name and my cousin. I go up there and I’m like, this is a half assed institution. And I would say that to Tim who runs it, or any of the rest of them, because of the writers who vote because of the I mean, you bake in the racism, the politics and and steroids into baseball and into the stats? I mean, I can’t you and I have not had a baseball Hall of Fame conversation in a long, long time stats because it it well, Pete rosenberry bonds are an in so the greatest and the greatest of both of everything we measure, they’ve just said, okay,
Luke Jones 28:37
okay, but, but you’re also acknowledging some really extreme conditions for those two individuals. I think it’s far more compared bunch
Nestor Aparicio 28:45
cheated more than Pudge Rodriguez. I think it’s more and more than big Poppy. They’re all drug users more than a rod I think it’s far more. They all benefited from it. But how,
Luke Jones 28:57
how do you but then, how do you marry that with individuals who were never linked to steroids played in the same era. Stats might not be quite as good, right? I mean, Fred McGriff, that was a big talking point for him, one way or the other, in terms of, okay, he was never linked to peds, he came up just short of 500 home runs. But 500 home runs isn’t the benchmark that it was 40 years ago, because of the steroid era, because of expansion, all that look, I think we can be cynical and crush most institutions in America, in
Nestor Aparicio 29:31
the Rock and Roll Hall that said, you
Luke Jones 29:35
know that that’s the cynical way of looking at it, and even a realistic way in some in some ways, at the same time, at the end of the day, we’re not curing cancer
Nestor Aparicio 29:44
here. We’re talking about greatness or degrees or greatness, and we’re talking about
Luke Jones 29:48
games, right, right? And, and that’s where I even look at it through the lens of, you know, Would I rather the Hall of Fame be more exclusive or more restrictive? Okay, it’s a. Sliding scale. But if someone’s really close, like someone’s really close, I also don’t want to be the guy that necessarily tears them down. You know, you and I, a couple years ago, we got into it because Harold Baines got in by one of, you know, the veteran, you know, whatever they call that committee. Now, I love Harold Baines. He’s one of my favorite players. At no time did I ever think Harold Baines was a Hall of Famer?
Nestor Aparicio 30:22
But part of that was a stigma him being a DH too. Sure, sure.
Luke Jones 30:26
And look, I mean, I mean, as I That’s why I kind of said the the MVP outrage with Lamar not making it or not winning and Josh Allen winning. I mean, the NFL elected a kicker, or the AP elected a kicker as the MVP back in the 80s, right? I mean, that’s, that’s the peak of absurdity in terms of saying a kicker is going to be your most valuable player in the league, rather than any quarterback or just about any other position, right? And I say that with no disrespect to Vinatieri or Justin Tucker, but among the Ravens most valuable players in the history of their franchise, Justin Tucker is not in the top five, you know he he’s maybe at the back of the top 10. I don’t have this
Nestor Aparicio 31:09
argument with my wife, uh, literally, last night about who the greatest players in the history of the team were, because we were sitting watching this thing, and she asked about where Tucker, yeah, would he be considered greater than Suggs or yonda as a kicker? She’s like, he’s the goat. And I’m like, but the position where these arguments happen that like putting a kicker in, especially a kicker that’s had massaged, yeah, I mean, that changes, like it, but it doesn’t. It doesn’t. All the voters say to me that doesn’t matter. You know it does. But you know it does. I conscious when they say it consciously. It would matter to me, if I were on the ballot, that Terrell Suggs did things to me that I didn’t appreciate, physically and through bleach on his girlfriend. And that would matter to me. It would matter to me that I saw Steve Smith threatened Jameson Hensley in the in front of me. It’s all nobody do anything about it like those after punching teammates, after all of that. So that would, that would weigh on me a little bit. We all have
Luke Jones 32:09
our biases, you know, whether we’re talking about something that directly, or Ray
Nestor Aparicio 32:14
Lewis was in a jumpsuit and part of a murder, and they were shooting at his limo, and they’re, you know, like that. He had to deal with that 25 years ago. So did the victims, by the way, his 25th anniversary of their death this week, last week. So, um, male, didn’t he got in, you know, jury. Whenever anybody else did, Ray wound up in jail and in a trial and like all of that, and still walked into the Hall of Fame, and he was innocent while guilty of obstruction of justice, but, but, and I’m not here to make a case for any of that, any any of any of it. I’m just saying the way it is, the way it is well,
Luke Jones 32:49
and that’s why I said even though, even though those things aren’t supposed to matter, they still matter, because we’re all we all have, you know, we all possess bias, we all have preconceived notions. We all have subconscious thinking about individuals and ideas and things of that nature. So look at the end of the day, we said our piece about Lamar. I think Lamar should have been MVP. I’m not losing over it. I think Marshall yanda and Terrell Suggs are both going to be Hall of Famers. The more and more I studied it, the less I thought either one, one was going to be elected on the first ballot. And two, when you look at the history of first ballot Hall of Famers, and you just run down the list of guys that were first ballot,
Nestor Aparicio 33:37
yeah, and this Larry Allen a first at ballot. He
Luke Jones 33:40
was, he was that rare, rare, rare exception. And go look at his credentials. Compared to Marshall yonda. Larry Allen was a better had a better career. Well, when
Nestor Aparicio 33:48
I spent time with at the turn of the century in 1999 I spent enough time. I’ve stayed at baldy’s house. We’ve traveled together like I know baldy. Well, anytime Larry Allen’s name ever came up, he was like, Larry Allen’s the greatest guard in NFL history, and it’s not, and I was a guard, and it’s not close, like, that’s where bald digger felt about him. That’s why I asked you that, because that was a I mean, I don’t just respect Baldi. The world respects baldy’s work at this point. So 25 years later, into our friendship, all these breakdowns, I would highly recommend anybody that wants to see guard play and see see it broken down, he does it better than anybody in the world, but Larry Allen’s the gold standard. And then the question is, where does Marshall yanderk fall
Luke Jones 34:32
in there? He I think when you look at him, you have to consider Pro Bowls. One thing that I think a lot of fans and even media overlook because pro Pro Bowls are such a mainstream thing. We talk about it. There’s a game every year. We argue about it every year, but, but that’s, that’s a credential. It’s part of a player’s profile. I think you need to, I think a lot of people overlook First Team All Pro selections. Terrell Suggs had one in his career, his 2011 season. Marshall yanda had two First Team All Pro. Selections. Now they’re again, I think they’re both Pro Football Hall of Famers. I think they both will get in. But if you go to the list, and I even found a site that just flat out lists the first first ballot Hall of Famers, I mean, since 2000 Ronnie Lott, Joe Montana, Jackie Slater, Jim Kelly, Marcus, Allen, Barry Sanders, John Elway, Dan Marie no Steve Young Warren, Moon Reggie White Troy Aikman, Bruce Matthews, Darryl green rod Woodson. Bruce Smith, Jerry Jerry Rice, Emmet Smith, Marshall Fauci Deion sand, they’re all like, 75th anniversary, yeah, you know, like, literally, yeah. Jonathan Ogden, Larry Allen Warren, Sapp Derek Brooks, Walter Jones, Junior sale Brett Favre, Jason Taylor, ladanian, Tomlinson, Randy Moss, Urlacher, Ray champ, Bailey, Tony Gonzalez, Ed Reed, Troy, Polamalu, Calvin Johnson, Peyton Manning, Charles Woodson, Darrell Rivas, Joe Thomas Julius peppers,
Nestor Aparicio 35:48
Jason Taylor, I wouldn’t he’s, he’s not a first ballot,
Luke Jones 35:52
and that’s, and that’s fine, right? I thought Antonio Gates should have been a first ballot Hall of Famer last year, even he had to wait a year. Well, there’s
Nestor Aparicio 35:58
another guy that suffered from not winning, yeah, but, but that said, when I
Luke Jones 36:03
read up, when I read off that list earlier this week, I kind of said, You know what? I don’t think Suggs or yonder are getting in, and I don’t really think if we’re, if we’re talking about the first battle, and look, a big part of this, and you can speak way more to this, whether you’re talking about Ira Kaufman or Clark judge, or others that we’ve talked to over the years that were in that room and part of that process, and even though it’s been revamped, are still part of that process. There’s a there’s a way that this happens, right? And Ravens fans haven’t been spoiled because they were all deserving. But Jonathan Ogden didn’t have to wait in line because he was that great of a player. Ray Lewis didn’t have to wait in line because he was that great of a player. Ed Reed did not have to wait in line because he was that great, if you’re talking about the ravens, Mount Rushmore, Ogden Lewis, Reed, and then the debate is about the fourth spot, which I think is going to be Lamar slam dunk five years from now, or 10 years
Nestor Aparicio 36:57
Well, the argument was, is Tucker, that guy, given right? He might be the greatest kicker ever, right? And to your point, he it’s when it comes to Hall of Fame, nobody’s just going to stand up, especially now, and say, Justin Tucker, and sit down now. If Tucker had hit the game winner in the championship game last year and won a Super Bowl, yeah, you’d start to add that thing up even more like Vina Terry. The reason Vinatieri is, how many game winning Super Bowl Did he win with his foot? How many did he win? How many games did they win? You could go pro bowls and all of those kind of things with him, and he’s still like this, because Terrell Suggs is going to get in before he does. Marshall yonder is going to get in before vine Terry, and they just walked in, and Fitzgerald, you’ve already put in. You got breeze going in next year, maybe not first ballot, but there’s just all of these names. Man, you know, we haven’t even met. I think Heinz Ward’s a Hall of Famer, and he’s starting to slip with every Steve Smith that comes on. And that’s the way this works.
Luke Jones 37:55
Yeah, and, but the point I was making about Mount Rushmore, when you pose that question to Ravens fans, and I’m talking about Ravens fans, not Ravens fans, not 20 year olds who have no recollection of Jonathan Ogden, for example. You come up with those first three right away, and the debate is about the fourth. Is it soggs, you know? Is it Joe Flacco? Is it Lamar, which, again, I think five years from now, it’s not even going to be a discussion, but those first three, you name right away. And that was kind of my point in terms of those guys being first ballot guys
Nestor Aparicio 38:25
compared to Suggs. If I were going to play against him, I’d say he was fat a couple of seasons. You know what? I mean, he had a couple of seasons where he just wasn’t in shape and he wasn’t as impactful. But I think he’s the fourth guy right now. He’s the fourth best player they’ve ever had. And then there’s Lamar, who’s quickly moved past. I would say Lamar. You know, Lamar is fourth now, but yeah, Suggs. Before Lamar came along, Suggs was that guy. And I also think Suggs may have a ding against him because of playing with Reed and Lewis in the same way that in Tampa there was was it really SAP? Was it really Brooks? Was it really Lynch? You’ll go through that with these players, and I, and I think a key part, if Lamar had thrown 41 and four with JK Dobbins in the backfield, they may have felt differently than Derrick Henry on the MVP voting. I do think that I know all of these guys, they don’t they’re like you. They’re nerds. They don’t just throw darts. They sit around, they pray about it, they think about it. They’re not racist. They’re not AFC fans or not NFC like it. There’s none of that going on with these humans that I know, maybe Tony grossi in regard to art modell. But other than that, there’s no other bias in this, other than how you feel about the player. And I don’t go man to man to all of them and say, Why did you pick Josh Allen? I’m pretty sure Lamar had a lot of better players around him, and Josh Allen won more games and played a week longer, although that didn’t matter in the voting, but Josh Allen was worthy. You know, you can make
Luke Jones 39:57
a change. I’m fine with me. In a case for him, you know, and you mentioned it, and, you know, I don’t even, even though I fully acknowledge the the historical element of racism playing a part. But I can also remember Michael Jordan losing out to Charles Barkley for MVP. Well,
Nestor Aparicio 40:18
somebody put our fourth right? Yeah, that’s ridiculous. That’s That’s dumb. I want to know that is, and I am going to have questions about who they voted for in the past.
Luke Jones 40:28
That’s a dumb choice. I mean, if you didn’t have Lamar second at the very least, I think that’s kind of ridiculous. And I think, I think you’re trying too hard to reimagine whatever the idea of valuable is, right? I think at some point in time you’re trying to talk yourself into something different, just to be a contrarian. 41 four and 1000 yards of rushing stop, you know? But I do, but I do want to, because we were, and I know we’re jumping all around here, but a lot of these, a lot of these arguments, have similar threads. It’s a weekend piece.
Nestor Aparicio 40:55
There’s, we haven’t talked about the game, you know? I mean, everyone victim, a player. We got all sorts of things. We I had
Luke Jones 41:01
one final point on Suggs, I think, the second act of his career, after the second Achilles. So remember, he tears his Achilles week one in the 2015 season 16 comes back, has an eight sack season, and then had 11 in 2017 made one more pro bowl. He
Nestor Aparicio 41:20
won another Super Bowl. By the way, people didn’t
Luke Jones 41:21
get that. He did. I that’s so flimsy though. I mean, he was barely a role player for the chiefs, but he did, and that’s certainly two time. It’s a nice it’s a nice little you know, there’s to me that that’s where, if we’re talking in terms of Hall of Fame credentials, how flimsy Is that to say Terrell Suggs is a two time Super Bowl winner in Lamar, instead of being a three time MVP as a two time MVP, that’s where we need to look. Dive deeper at times. But I think Suggs having that 2016 through 18, where he had 811, and seven sacks, I think that sealed it for him, for me, because prior to that time, if you would ask me, in 2015 as Terrell Suggs a Hall of Famer, I would have said probably not, whereas now that changed me to probably right. It swung me from probably not to probably so, you know, the longevity matters. You know, we talked about this with halodi nada. Halodi Nada five year peak was just about as impressive as anything from from a Ravens defensive player, but did he do it with the same level of longevity? You know, that was his peak as long as Ray Lewis or Ed Reed or Terrell Suggs? I’d say no, but he was a great player or
Nestor Aparicio 42:37
Warren Sapp in his case, if you’re comparing one to the other, right, sure.
Luke Jones 42:41
But you know, nada never was a big, you know, was never loading. Not a much better man than Warren Sapp. I’ll say, Sure, sure. But yeah. I mean, look, there’s always subjectivity. There’s always going to be bias wrapped into this. There’s always going to be fun debates. I absolutely think there was some voter fatigue as it pertained to Lamar in the way that LeBron James doesn’t have 12 MVPs in the way that Lamar or Michael Jordan didn’t have 12 MVPs in his career of when they were the best player in the league for for most of their careers, right? So, so we know that that happens, right? Whether it’s something malicious or whether it’s just more of a subconscious thing, or just trying to be a contrarian thing, if you vote Lamar Jackson fourth, which, that’s ridiculous, that what if he goes 41 and four again next year, right? You know, like, I would say you vote against that, but, yeah, well, and this is where, this is where I pump the break. The way
Nestor Aparicio 43:36
you vote against that is you say that other guy did something similar, and he didn’t have any players, and he did
Luke Jones 43:41
in Buffalo or or you, you remember that every year is going to be judged differently. Again, I thought this was lamar’s best season of his career, but in 2019 he was unanimous. Barkley runs for 158
Nestor Aparicio 43:56
yards on Sunday night. Wins the Super Bowl. He got Carrie, who the MVP was. He is the MVP. This is
Luke Jones 44:01
where we come back full circle, and this is where I’d say whether it was Lamar Jackson up there at NFL honors accepting, or Josh Allen, let’s face it, outside of Buffalo and outside of Baltimore, like the consolation training trophy, it is Patrick mahomes and the chiefs are going for their fourth title in six years, right? I mean, it’s crazy. So, you know, at the end of the day, it made for some very heated debate on social media, and will continue to be, because I think a lot of fans, and I made a one comment earlier in the segment, I want to just clarify what I meant by that. I said I think it’s a little more of a generational thing that has become, you know, a little more fixed, or, you know, fixated on the MVP. I think some of that is kind of an NBA mindset, where the NBA is much more of a player centric League, who’s the best player, who’s the best player, and the teams are almost, you know, almost an afterthought at times. Sometimes, and I think it’s a little bit of that mentality, and I’m not, I’m not saying that’s good or bad. I just think that’s where it’s a little more different. But I will say this, and I know, I’m sure Josh Allen was happy. Hey, what? He got a $1.5 million incentive for winning MVP, so good for him in that way. But either one of those guys would much, much rather be playing on Sunday night, and they’re not, and that’s where you look at mahomes and the chiefs, and they’re still king, and that’s where Lamar and the Ravens and Josh Allen and the bills and Joe burrow and every other quarterback in the AFC right now is they’re chasing, and they’re hoping to unseat the Chiefs at some point in time, but we’ll see. You. Know, I think the Eagles have a good chance to do it. I think the Eagles have the better roster top to bottom, but Kansas City has Andy Reid and Patrick mahomes and Chris Jones and Travis Kelsey, and they know a thing or two on how to play at their best on this stage, and that’s where it’s tough to pick against them. I’m
Nestor Aparicio 45:57
just looking forward to seeing Taylor Swift a little bit more, because I don’t get enough of her. Um, Luke Jones is here. He is Baltimore. Look, you can find him out of Baltimore. Positive anywhere. Social media is sold. We’re going to get to some Oriole stuff. We’ll have some fun around here. There’ll be some post game next week. Tons and tons for people out there saying, I, you know, I wish I could do something nice to serve the world. Well, I’m doing a couple Super Bowl this week, telling all sorts of stories, of things you can do to be helpful in our community, and stories of real inspiration in lots of cases. I hope you listen in tune, in find in fall in at Baltimore positive, it’s gonna snow and you be stuck at home anyway. I’m Nestor. He’s Luke. We are Baltimore positive. Stay with us. You.
