The offseason business of last place and Camden Yards renovations for Orioles

When it’s been as lousy as it has been for as long as it has been, we all realized the Baltimore Orioles rebuild and retool under new ownership could be a “work in progress.” Georgetown sports business professor and one-time leader of the Birdland sales and business operation Marty Conway discusses this tumultuous time in MLB for media, money and labor peace whilst Camden Yards gets renovated and David Rubenstein tries to figure out a baseball franchise presumably with Mike Elias still picking players.

Nestor Aparicio and Marty Conway discussed the Baltimore Orioles’ offseason amidst Camden Yards renovations and fan dissatisfaction. Conway highlighted the need to modernize the stadium with new sound and video systems and dining areas. He emphasized the importance of reinvigorating fan interest, noting that fan attendance drops during poor performance. Conway also discussed the impact of the Orioles’ poor start on ticket sales and the necessity of a reliable starting pitcher. They touched on the importance of community engagement and the potential for the Orioles to learn from innovative teams like the Savannah Bananas. Conway also called for recognition of historical contributors like Edward Bennett Williams and Larry Lucchino in the Orioles Hall of Fame.

• [ ] @Nestor Aparicio – Identify and engage with local business leaders and community champions who can help support the Orioles and keep baseball in Baltimore.
• [ ] Explore ways to better integrate the Orioles’ home stadium with the surrounding area and create a more vibrant gameday experience for fans.
• [ ] Consider reinstating the 13-game ticket plan, which was a popular option for fans in the past.
• [ ] Recognize the contributions of key figures like Edward Bennett Williams and Larry Lucchino in the Orioles’ Hall of Fame.

Camden Yards Renovation and Fan Engagement

• Nestor Aparicio introduces the topic of the Baltimore Orioles’ offseason amidst Camden Yards renovation and angry fans.
• Marty Conway, a sports business professor at Georgetown University, joins the discussion to provide insights on the Orioles’ business side.
• Nestor and Marty discuss the impact of Springsteen concerts on their music preferences, with Marty expressing a newfound appreciation for Billy Joel.
• Nestor reflects on the Orioles’ competitive nature and the changes in team management over the years.

Challenges of Reinvigorating Camden Yards

• Marty Conway emphasizes the need to reinvigorate Camden Yards, noting that fans still exist but attend fewer games during poor performance periods.
• The physical plant of Oriole Park at Camden Yards needs modernization, including new sound and video systems and dining areas.
• Marty discusses the vision for Camden Yards to connect with the city, which didn’t fully materialize due to the lack of private enterprise involvement.
• Nestor and Marty agree on the importance of creating a modern, functional stadium that appeals to younger fans.

Impact of Ownership and Team Performance

• Nestor expresses frustration with the current ownership and management, feeling that they have not brought a fresh approach to the team.
• Marty highlights the importance of managing fan expectations during the offseason, noting that the Orioles’ poor start made the season feel over before it began.
• The conversation touches on the impact of player injuries and the need for a reliable starting pitcher to anchor the team.
• Nestor and Marty discuss the challenges of selling tickets and maintaining fan interest during a rebuilding phase.

Modernizing Camden Yards and Community Engagement

• Marty Conway suggests that modernizing Camden Yards should include more than just functional improvements; it should also create a vibrant community space.
• The discussion includes ideas for integrating restaurants, street festivals, and other community activities to make the stadium a year-round destination.
• Nestor and Marty agree that the stadium should be more than just a place to drink beer; it should offer a variety of experiences to attract different types of fans.
• The conversation highlights the need for a collaborative approach between the team and the city to create a thriving stadium environment.

The Role of the Savannah Bananas and Innovative Baseball

• Nestor and Marty discuss the Savannah Bananas, a minor league team known for their innovative approach to baseball and fan engagement.
• Marty uses Jesse Cole, the founder of the Savannah Bananas, as an example of how to build culture and leadership in sports.
• The Bananas’ success in attracting a younger audience and creating a unique baseball experience is highlighted as a model for other teams.
• The conversation touches on the potential for the Orioles to learn from the Bananas and implement similar strategies to reinvigorate their fan base.

Business Practices and Ticket Sales

• Marty Conway shares insights on the importance of modernizing business practices, including ticket pricing and allocation strategies.
• The conversation includes examples of how other teams have successfully managed ticket sales and fan engagement.
• Nestor and Marty discuss the challenges of selling tickets in advance and the impact of the secondary market on ticket prices.
• The discussion highlights the need for the Orioles to find a balance between modernizing their business practices and maintaining fan loyalty.

The Importance of On-Field Performance

• Nestor and Marty agree that the Orioles’ on-field performance will ultimately determine the team’s success in selling tickets and engaging fans.
• The conversation includes a discussion on the importance of having a reliable starting pitcher and the potential impact of key players like Adley Rutschman.
• Marty emphasizes the need for the team to start the next season strong to regain fan confidence and support.
• The discussion touches on the potential for a work stoppage in baseball and its impact on the Orioles’ offseason plans.

Historical Contributions and Hall of Fame Recognition

• Marty Conway highlights the historical contributions of Edward Bennett Williams and Larry Lucchino to the Orioles’ success.
• The conversation includes a discussion on the importance of recognizing these contributions in the Orioles Hall of Fame.
• Nestor and Marty agree that there are significant gaps in the Hall of Fame’s recognition of key contributors and historical figures.
• The discussion emphasizes the need for a holistic approach to recognizing the team’s history and the contributions of various individuals.

The Future of Camden Yards and Team Ownership

• Nestor and Marty discuss the future of Camden Yards and the potential for further renovations and modernization.
• The conversation includes a discussion on the importance of finding local investors and supporters to help sustain the team and the stadium.
• Nestor expresses concern about the current ownership’s ability to lead the team and engage the community effectively.
• The discussion highlights the need for a collaborative approach between the team and the city to ensure the long-term success of Camden Yards and the Orioles.

Final Thoughts and Looking Ahead

• Nestor and Marty wrap up the discussion by reflecting on the challenges and opportunities facing the Orioles and Camden Yards.
• The conversation includes a discussion on the importance of maintaining a positive outlook and supporting the team through its rebuilding phase.
• Nestor expresses hope for a successful offseason and a strong start to the next season for the Orioles.
• The discussion concludes with a focus on the importance of community engagement, modernization, and fan experience in the future of the Orioles and Camden Yards.

Sports business professor Mart…ards renovation and angry fans

Thu, Aug 28, 2025 1:06PM • 49:51

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Orioles offseason, Camden Yards renovation, fan engagement, ticket sales, business practices, team performance, stadium modernization, fan experience, Baltimore sports, baseball strategy, ownership changes, community involvement, ticket pricing, fan loyalty.

SPEAKERS

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Marty Conway, Nestor Aparicio

Nestor Aparicio  00:01

Welcome home. We are W, N, S T am 1570 task of Baltimore. We are Baltimore positive. We are getting ready for football on Sunday, the Ravens beginning the season around here. But, you know, talk a little ravens with this guy. Before we get out, we get to do the Maryland crab cake tour on the 16th at the Beaumont. I will have some pressure looks and Lucky seven to do. Have a handful of these left. I will of these left. I will have the Raven scratch offs. I know it’s Raven season, but I still want to talk some baseball here, and certainly the business of what’s going on with the Orioles, amongst other things, this guy was involved with the Baltimore Orioles, oh, four decades ago, running things on the business side during the Edward Bennett, Williams, Larry lakino era, and the the first bricks of Oriole Park at Kansas. Camden Yards low these 33 almost 34 seasons ago now, we welcome our defending champion and sports professor of all things sports professoring at Georgetown University. We welcome Marty Conway back on to the program. No Springsteen concerts for you and me here in this fall. So we just got to stick with football and baseball, I guess, at this point, right? But maybe go to the bananas game or something.

Marty Conway  01:03

Yeah, yeah. No, actually, I also want to say that to you personally, I’ve come to realize since Springsteen has been off and around, I’ve gotten more into Billy Joel music. And I totally miss that. I tell you, I have. I missed that in my music appreciation. I’m only getting to it now, and I know it’s

Nestor Aparicio  01:19

very late. You’ve never done Billy Joel. You did one or the other one of those guys? Yeah? Well, yes, probably that’s best. There was a lot of that in New York at that time, amongst people, maybe your ages. It was sort of rivalry that I don’t understand. I was too young for that. Like, to me, Billy Joel was, it’s still rock and roll to me. And like, Piano Man and Springsteen was, like, for my parents, like Springsteen. It’s 7980 was very like, not cool amongst the heavy metal set. But I’ve loved, I love Billy Joel before. I love Springsteen.

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Marty Conway  01:50

Yeah, so I missed on that I missed, I’m willing to admit that now I

Nestor Aparicio  01:53

missed. I said to my wife two nights ago, I’m like, I should have seen Billy Joel more at the garden. You know, I saw him probably eight or nine times over the but I’m sure going 12 or 15, um, yeah, baseball, all right. I mean, I didn’t last time I talked to you like, I think it might have been May. I mean, they might not even have been in trouble the last time we talked, last time we talked, it’s like, hey, they’re still a competitive team that could turn Brandon, hi, might have still had a job at the time we talked. Um, a lot has happened here. I just want to give you 50,000 feet, because you look at it differently than me, and I care a lot, and I’m pissed and stuff, but you still know people that work there. You still love the Orioles. You still know the business of it, and you’re the guy like Janet Marie or others that are alive enough to say, Hey, I conceived Camden Yards. How are we going to get this thing full again and fix it, because I know what’s in your heart and spirit to want like it is mine, even though Katie Griggs doesn’t believe that, and David Rubenstein Did Mark fine. Don’t believe that. All I want them to do is be great. I don’t want to be their complaint department like the Baltimore banner has been lately.

Marty Conway  02:55

Yeah. Well, yeah. So to your point, it’s it just needs to be reinvigorated. It’s always been there. I think we were, we’ve been on shows in the in the last 15 years, where I said, you know that period of 11 or 12 years, or whatever it was, where they went without a winning season, all that, people thought, well, there’s missing a whole generation of fans. No, they weren’t doing that. There’s, there’s a lot of Oriole fans still today. They just, I’ve said this before, they just come less they’re less frequent. When the team isn’t performing well, the person that comes five or six times a year comes twice or three times. So there’s a lot to that. But then also, the physical plant of Oriole Park at Camden Yards needs to be modernized, which I know some of that, which is underway with the dollars that are coming from the state of Maryland, there’ll be a whole new sound and video system. There’ll be a a dining area behind home plate, where the press box is and things like that. But the physical plant around it also has to modernize so that there’s a reason for you to be there 200 days a year, instead of, you know, six games, or whatever it is that it’s part it needs to come out to the economy. There was a vision, and again, I’m not the vision person for Camden Yards of clear but there was a vision that the ballpark would connect all the way up Utah Street, Howard Street, all the way up that corridor.

Nestor Aparicio  04:22

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It was way to the city. Yes, exactly. Conceived as such,

Marty Conway  04:25

exactly. And that didn’t happen primarily because you can see where the boundary of Oriole Park stops and where you were hoping, I guess, that private enterprise would

Nestor Aparicio  04:38

pick up it’s gonna walk up Utah straight to the Hippodrome. Right? Exactly, right, okay, and that, and that just didn’t happen. Well, I mean, let’s be honest, Marty, they had an owner who did not have any vision other than tunnel and himself, and a mirror like so. That went on for 30 years. There was, there was no cooperation, there was no any of that. And now with these new people. So that’s why I’m really, really pissed and disappointed as the them treating me like garbage personally, is I just thought this would be a new thing for everyone, that they would come in with a completely fresh approach and be all of this. I Marty, i and i One thing I would have said to you a year and a half ago, and I probably said it is, well, this they’re not going to stink on the field, like, at least they have a good team, right? Like, that’s the thing that’s really, really gone off the rails in the last five months here, was that this perception that they were going to be a contender for four to six years with TLC, that was going to reinvigorate them to become the St Louis Cardinals. We’re not there yet. Matter of fact, they’ve gone the opposite direction. Marty, I mean, I talk to people on the streets here every day, people that gave Rubenstein money last October, that aren’t giving it to him this

Marty Conway  05:49

year. Yeah, no, this is an important off season with the current administration, and look to be, you know, I think I’ve said this before, the worst thing that can occur to you in the off season is expectations that are beyond your roster and teams. You know that just happens, but there’s always ways that you can jawbone and lower those expectations and then try to exceed it. That That didn’t happen here. There was no sense of, hey, maybe, you know, maybe we’ve got a bubble, like an inflation bubble, occurring here to do that, because if you look at how the roster was built, aside from some, some of the core players, and even now, you’re starting to see, you know, is Adley Richmond? Is he the guy? Is he somebody that you’re going to keep long term, or is now the time to actually, perhaps get something in return for him? So pitching injuries, there were a number of things that kept the roster from being as fulfilling as it could and ultimately, it was just an incredibly poor start. I know it wasn’t a I was there for the, you know, oh, and 21 start, and a lot of ways, again, the season was over within the first two weeks, when you’re 14 games under 500 for the Orioles this year. The season was over when they were 14 and 33 or whatever it was when Brandon Hyde got fired. So

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Nestor Aparicio  07:09

was they before Preakness. I mean, literally, season’s over may 15. That’s that’s incredible,

Marty Conway  07:14

yeah. And then from there, you’re hoping that the visiting team fans bring dollars. There were a lot of Red Sox fans there. The other night, there were a lot of Astros fans. That’s going to happen. So, yeah, that’s the nature of the season. And you start selling, like I said before, there’s a playing season and a selling season, and this year for the team, the selling season began, you know, just a few weeks ago, with saying, Okay, here’s what we’re doing with tickets for next year.

Nestor Aparicio  07:42

Yeah, I was blessed to, and I know you knew Jim Henneman exceedingly well. I was blessed to couple weeks after his funeral, and I spent a goodly amount of time around a lot of old friends and people at his funeral. I ran into his son in law. Had him on the show unwittingly. He runs marketing at 1623, brewing out in Eldersburg. Oh, really. Jimmy spent the, you know, the end of his life with him. And the thing about ripping the Jim Henneman press box out to make a Glass Menagerie behind him play, The Glass Menagerie is a great Phil Jackman reference too, who was once doused by Earl Weaver and champagne with a shirt that said lifeguard on it, back when they respected the media, back when you respected the media, and Larry and people respected the media, the press box getting thrown out of there and looked I sitting it in any way. Mark fine. Can have whoever he wants down there, and Jennifer granddall and all of them, I don’t but the issue for me is, you said Camden Yards needs to be modernized, and I’m old enough to remember that that wasn’t the point. You know, Shannon Murray built it. The idea was to make it look like 1957 and that would get people my age, your age, my father was still alive then. So was my mother was Spry in 1992 like, Oh, look. Look at the wrought iron. Look at the steel. Look at the retro. Look at the retro. And then you and I have talked that, you know, 15 years ago, when the internet happened, they didn’t have happened, they didn’t have point of sale built in there. We’ve talked about how much cable, you know, Comcast had to run to make for, you know, 3d, 4d, HD, all the DS work over the course of time. But when then they start farting with the fence and the outfield, center field bar that they built there. I have not talked to Janet Murray, on the record, off the record, anywhere. She’s out doing her thing with the Dodgers. I see her moving around. She should be in the Oriole Hall of Fame. And I’ll let you get onto your thing with that. But the notion that they’re going to modernize the stadium and not take into account the esthetic part of why it was built and what it was, I am fascinated to see what modern architecture is going to look like if Janet Marie’s not involved, or somebody who built it wasn’t involved. And I know it pained you to see a scalpel taken to it at various points based on what it used to be. It’s not appealing to 1940s people. I’m not saying that they’re making it uglier or prettier or more functional. They need to make. Make it a place people half of our age want to go a dozen times and do something more than drink beer, like I keep going back to this thing with baseball and even the bananas, getting people to care about your sport, getting people to care about the team, getting people to be vested in the team, not vested in the bobbleheads or in the giveaways or in the beer drinking in the outfield, you go after you don’t even watch the game. I don’t know that that’s conducive to them creating fans, as I know it. And maybe you would say fans aren’t important, you know, if you’re a fan of Tom Cruise, to go to a Tom Cruise movie, you know? So I understand that, but they’ve eaten off of people like me, doing things like sports radio and talking relief pitching and who’s in the lineup and who’s at the miners baseball. Talk real baseball, talk that the bananas don’t have. You know that’s fake, but staying in on the soap opera and being part of all of that, I there’s the baseball part, and then there’s the extended part, and then there’s the I just need a night out drinking part. And what does it cost me like a concert I don’t want to go to, or I get dragged to and just go, um, they need to be more than that to more people. And this repeat customer thing that you’ve talked about is about being into it, so I’ve left a lot there. But let’s start with the stadium and the Redo. Because you’ve seen the videos of you’ve seen what the Ravens have done to their state Raven staring up the stadium doesn’t mean anything, because that stadium wasn’t built right as this retro thing. But are we done with retro? I mean, like everything that was built for it doesn’t need to be pretty anymore. It needs to print them money, right? It doesn’t need to appeal to to old farts

Marty Conway  11:32

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that are dead. Yeah, no, I’m not, I’m not sure about that. I think esthetically, the ballpark will live as it is for 100 years, like Fenway Park, and it will be highly respected in that regard. Obviously, there’s a modernization to the plant. I’ve talked about this before, things that you would never see underneath that feed into concessions and merchandise and Wi Fi and video boards and audio and all those different things.

Nestor Aparicio  11:57

You want to make the music awesome in there. You got to make the sound system also, yeah,

Marty Conway  12:01

it just need to be something that people don’t say. Now, what was that I didn’t hear what she said? Do that. So all that will occur, and those will be something that I think fans will notice and appreciate. If you go to a game, football game, the sound system in the video leads the charge, right? It leads the fans into an experience. Well, every

Nestor Aparicio  12:21

player has an ad bad and the one thing everybody’s told me about the bananas is it’s a disco. It’s just a big, giant disco of 32nd songs all night long. And that’s what the kids want

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Marty Conway  12:31

they do. Now, base Major League Baseball is a different kind of product, so you have to temper that. But I think what we’re talking about is outside the walls of the exterior. How far is that going to go? Is it going to go? 100 yards, 200 yards, which direction and what’s going to be there? Because coming to the game itself is it is still an important experience. Some people, for some people, it’s a baseball is a religion. For a lot of people, they love the routine of it. Just like you go to the mass, there’s a routine to it. But you need things that are on the exterior of that that make it interesting for people to, yes, come more often, and come and stay

Nestor Aparicio  13:13

longer, and, I mean, concerts, beer, the things that they’re doing were,

Marty Conway  13:17

it’s a combination of things. It’s, you know, would there be three or four restaurants? Would there be other things that would be a part of it? If you look at the everybody talks about the battery in Atlanta having been there a few times. Talk about Cardinal village in St Louis, things like that that make it fit into the community on a more regular basis. Look, they tried with having Dempsey’s as a restaurant there. They tried a few other things it didn’t catch in the way that it needs to, which is to make it part of the fabric of that part of town more frequently, as you know, year round type of opportunities, and have the ability not just to expect a developer to do it, but to work with development companies and make that an overall plan that feeds into what you’re doing 80 times, 85 times a year when you’re hosting either baseball games or the savannah bananas, or whatever you’re doing as a part of it that it works together right now, it’s a hard stop right walk out to Camden Street. Have the Hilton over there. There’s no combination of

Nestor Aparicio  14:22

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that. There’s nothing. Doesn’t exist anymore, as I as we knew it right there. There’s

Marty Conway  14:27

not a street festival every time there’s a baseball game. And that’s what you need to have today in order to bring people who are under the age of 40 who think about their entertainment experience differently than people that are 45 and above.

Nestor Aparicio  14:41

So you’re saying, move pickles across the street. I mean, bring it in.

Marty Conway  14:45

You don’t have to be but embrace it. Figure out the way. What’s the plan? How does that function with it? Not just that they do their business and we do our business. How do we do collectively, our business? So look at what that looks like on opening day. That entire. Space. It should look like that virtually every game. That should be the kind of scene that you should see virtually every game. And it should be something that’s cooperative, so that there’s a give and take on that, whatever that takes to do. But that takes, that takes that’s okay. That takes a take as a developer’s mindset, not a baseball owner operator mindset, who, in the past, you know, didn’t even go to that many games. Well,

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Nestor Aparicio  15:26

it’s, it’s urban development, yeah, right. That’s not a baseball job, right? That’s

Marty Conway  15:30

right. It’s a combination of that. The baseball has to be the center of it, but the urban development piece has to be spoke of. Again. 30 years ago when the ballpark opened, there was an expectation that that was going to happen, that it was going to be a catalyst for that activity, and it just didn’t occur the way that, I think the vision that some folks have, the good professor

Nestor Aparicio  15:52

Marty Conway is here on the eve of ravens and bills this week, Happy Labor Day to everybody out celebrating, doing whatever they’re doing here. Got nice weather, nice baseball, weather and all that. You know, I’m not going to do a whole lot of football with you. I’m going to stay on the baseball thing. I just, you have anything on the bananas you want to say? Because I’ve talked to a lot of people that actually went down to it. My wife and I abstained. I don’t get it, and I was a globetrotter guy as a kid, or whatever. I don’t it’s not for me. I guess if I had grandkids, I could be entertained by it, or it’s a place to take the kids. I’ll take them to the zoo. But my wife and I sat and watched it, and we pissed ourselves when how straight the announcers were. It was, you know, it was like professional wrestling or roller derby or something, in some sort of way. And when they start calling them the Nanners, and, I mean, look, I was at the second day, and people just dressed in, like, to your point, dressed in bananas gear, having dinner at Cooper’s north up in Cockeysville, taking the light rail down like the bananas are the home team and I it is a phenomenon. It’s Taylor Swifty for baseball. And baseball such a no offense to you or me or anybody loves it such a dead thing that they’ve invigorated this thing in a way that they have. I would have thought it was amazing if they could sell out buoy, you know, sell 6000 tickets for this fake baseball novelty event, but they’ve turned it into a marketing sensation, using ESPN, using television, using everything that baseball built for 150 years, and then breaking all the rules. It’s sort of making fun of baseball, a little bit sort of making fun of how stodgy baseball is. Yeah.

Marty Conway  17:23

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Well, I’ve used, actually, I use Jesse Cole and some of my classes around building culture leadership and things like that. When you look at that full history of what he and his wife did, of literally buying a team that was dead, the savannah team they were, they were no place. He actually started in in North Carolina in his early baseball career. But anyhow, I would encourage people to go out and pay attention to his story. But what I think you’re going to see is he’s pretty adamant that they are not the Globetrotters of baseball. And I think he’s right about this. What started with their team and one team for them to play against, sort of like the way the Globetrotters did. They now actually have four teams. They’re going to expand next year to two more, and have six teams, and they’re going to have basically a banana ball league. And then who knows where that goes from there. And he makes a great point. A couple of years ago, Major League Baseball cut their draft from 50 rounds to 20. And he said, think about all the really, really, really good baseball players who no longer even have a chance at a professional career, let alone bringing in people from outside the US who simply want to play baseball and are willing to entertain people while they play baseball. And I think he’s right about that. And I think there is a population you just it’s all about finding your audience, and they have found that audience with their irreverent way that they approach baseball, there are some things that baseball could learn from them. Right? Every game is two hours. It’s not whatever innings. It’s

Nestor Aparicio  18:58

every mother I’ve talked to of their children who thinks baseball is cool is like, two hours is plenty for my eight year old, plenty.

Marty Conway  19:06

Yep, that’s right. And so there’s a lot of different elements to it. If a fan catches a foul ball, it’s an out, like they’re just there’s some things that they’ve come up with that I think are interesting. And look, if you go to a major league baseball game now, from what you went three or four or five years ago, you can tell the difference the other game. The other day, I was at a game, I got up to go to the bathroom and get something to drink. I missed an entire half inning because it went so quick, right getting players in and out of the box. And in the past, I might have missed an out or two to do that. So there’s a lot of things that Major League Baseball, I think has and will continue to learn from innovators like Jesse Cole but I think it’s more than a phenomena, and I think you’re going to see it grow into a look baseball. Also, a few years ago, cut down on the number of affiliated teams from six to four. That left a lot of cities yearning for something interesting in baseball. All with an empty ballpark. They’re going to move Aberdeen affiliate to Frederick for next year for the Orioles, Aberdeen is going to be something they call a draft League. You know, I don’t know. Maybe people would be more interested in seeing a team that plays the bananas five times a year, once a month, whatever it is. So, yeah, I think there’s a lot of opportunity for them beyond just being the Globetrotters of baseball,

Nestor Aparicio  20:23

Marty Conway is here. He is the good professor of all things sports business at Georgetown University. And using Jesse Cole in his teaching, I I hope to build something here, after 35 years, you can use in your teachings in some way. Um, all right, let you know. Here’s the original teacher. You were a you were a suit in baseball, you were an executive and all that. 83 you won the World Series. 88 you go into the tank. 94 you go on strike. Right? You know they might be going on strike next year, so I’m going to tie that in and throw that part of this thing. Or not, strike or lockout would work stoppage. That’s used the right terminology here for Rob Manford, but what’s happened on the field this year, and what it means to this franchise long term, and and this is where we’re going to get sticky. And you and I go through some mud. I had a show on Monday. I Chris Corman out sports editor the Baltimore banner. I had my buddy Bill Cole my conciliatory and then my buddy Howard share, who duck doctors, um, he’s one of my oldest friends in the world. Met him at skip Jack’s game 1984 he is a Birdland member, and he we talked to me about it back in April, hopefully, and then he, he came out this week and said, Man, I got over a grand left on my account, and it’s, I’m going to eat it. I’m like, eat it. I got a trip to the Caribbean. I book a hotel if I don’t do it. I body insurance, and I, I can use the money next year. Southwest Airlines as much as they trying to screw up what they built, but herb Keller, her built, they still, if I missed the flight next week, my 180 bucks will stay for six months or a year, and I get to use it. I was blown away. You know, I just as a consumer and as a consumer, I must say this, Marty, I’m not their customer anymore. I’m not the guy that wants to go get the bobbleheads four times a year and stand out and sweat my ass off in the heat getting elbowed on Utah street two o’clock in the afternoon for four o’clock opening to get a Jim Palmer shirt. Like I don’t know how they treat their customers. It’s not much better than they treat me, except I don’t accept it and I don’t pay for it, but other people do. My buddy’s got 1000 bucks left. I got a couple of buddies that I’m actually going out to Costas on Friday and watching the Friday and watching the ponies and going to the state fair. Um, who did the same thing as a business? They’re like, All right, look, we like baseball. We hated Peter. We don’t give any money. Peter. Don’t own it. Now they won. I mean, they’ve been winning. They got good young players. Let’s give them 2500 bucks. I give them three. Let’s buy a membership. We’ll take some clients out, and we’ll go six times this year. And now, the end of the summer, day one, opening day, they got a couple grand. How many people this year? And Katie Greek should know this number I ran the place, I’d know it. Every person that’s that’s eating money right now or feeling like they gotta run out there and buy $140 box seat just to get rid of their money three weeks from now, maybe the Dodgers, maybe people just piss all their bird land money to go see Shohei if he pitches next week. I mean, that’s cool, right? But for me, I don’t understand the mindset of that, and I don’t understand how my buddy Howard share is not more angry, after all of these years, that he’s looking down and seeing $1,000 on his app and saying, Well, that’s gone, and now they want another 1003 weeks from now. It’s two three weeks from now, for next year. What they’ve done to their fans, with the with the renewals, and you were the guy in a suit having Mr. Big comes down the hallway and say, we bought Fred Lynn. We gotta, we gotta make some more money. You know, let’s charge more for tickets. I’m I don’t know what to say, but if I sat in front of them, I’d say, have you gone out and talk to your customers? Because I clearly they didn’t. And Katie Grace doesn’t know anybody in the city, including

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Marty Conway  23:55

me. Yeah, I look at my assessment of what’s happening is, first of all, you know, I have a really brief story about a person that was involved in ownership. I’m not going to say it any more than that, who said, When do you think a good time would be to announce our price increase? And I said, Never. And he said, What do you mean? He’s like, Oh, no. You mean? I said, No. I said, if you win the World Series, the day after you win the World Series, I would announce a price increase. And he said, you know, he wanted, he was asking me to kind of get more involved in I said, you never want to announce a price increase, but there are other ways for you to rescale your business. This goes for anything that doesn’t look like a price increase. Now, prices

Nestor Aparicio  24:38

are going to companies make 16 ounces, 14 Points translation, yeah, right. So that I remember that as a product idea, right?

Marty Conway  24:47

Yeah. So there are ways to do it, but when you’re announcing a change in your business practice, people are going to pick up on one or two or three things in the media, and that’s going to be your headline, but that’s to be understood. I. But Larry Lucchino was important about this. We did price increases a lot. Fair enough. Fair enough, because you have to to increase based on your cost. But there was always an opportunity to say, what can we do to lower prices in certain areas? So I remember time there were a couple of things about Larry that stick out to me. Number one is, if we would increase prices in certain sections, we would decrease decrease prices in other sections, right? Did that mean anything? Well, it meant something to somebody that was the value customer. If you were pricing me out here, at least I might be able to do it over here. And the other thing was, I remember standing around the batting cage after the ballpark opened, and there was a lot of demand and all of that. And he said, Do you think we’ve made a mistake selling all of our tickets in advance? And I said, What do you mean? Of course, we’re going to sell them when we can. And he said, I think there needs to be room for people to buy something the day of the game. That’s that’s the fan that can’t pay in advance for whatever reason, but can pay $10 for a grandstand outfield seat day of game. And there was a lot to that, and that actually changed the policy where you actually could buy that. So my point in all that is there’s a mentality of the fan that you have to take into account. And the one thing that in this recent change that they made was they removed the 13 game plan. And the 13 game plan is, is goes back. It’s almost a heritage to the Orioles, because it was started at a time when it was difficult to sell tickets, and the entire designated hitter regime and all that that came about. The 13 game plan was something very unique to Baltimore, because it allowed you to go just on Sundays if you wanted, because there were 13 Sundays to the baseball season. It allowed you to see virtually every team once if you wanted to. And then you could supplement, you could supplement your plan to do it. So there was a certain mentality to do it. And I think there was something very Baltimore about the 13 game plan. I am season tickets. Yeah, right, exactly, right. Yeah, exactly, yeah. So now they’ve backed that down to 10. There’s a lot less to it. But basically 13 now is 20, and there’s a, you know, you can, you can, you can exchange 30% of your dollars or certain techniques to do it. But the point being is, sometimes there are certain things about your community that I think if you recognize it’s just like Cracker Barrel the other day, right? Cracker Barrel makes a big spends millions to make a logo change, and their community says, we hate that. Why are we changing? You know? And so I think there’s something to the 13 game plan, the mentality of how you approach that in the marketplace, in the psychology. But having said that, we know for certain that the way the team had been run prior to David Rubenstein and Michael aragheti buying the team, the business practices of the team were decades behind where other teams were in terms of their pricing of tickets, allocation, you know, scheming of 2040, 80 game plans they’re trying to make up for many, many years where it was just a hodgepodge of policy and whether it’s going to be successful or not in Baltimore, it remains to be seen, but I can assure you that the business practices of the team were at least 10 years behind, I would say the average, because the one thing that you get when you buy a baseball team or any team, any team in any sport, as soon as you walk in The door, the league, gives you a bunch of data that shows you where you are in in in the context of every other team, average ticket price, number of tickets sold, they give you this entire data set that says, here’s where you stand. You’re 27th in this. You’re 25th in this. You’re whatever you are. And I can assure you that those numbers that they inherited with this ownership team were in those bottom 20s across the board and a lot of things.

Nestor Aparicio  29:10

8

So Major League Baseball had access to Angelo’s his numbers, and everybody have access to everybody’s numbers. I know that I thought there were more private businesses than that that the Yankees wouldn’t be telling anybody how much money

Marty Conway  29:22

they’re really making. No, no, they look they they even have a group in each league now in base and basketball was famous because it was called Team bow. The acronym was team bow, Team operations, Team business operations, whatever. And David Stern had a group of young executive MBAs and recent grads who did nothing but analyze how each team was doing. And David, if you were in the bottom third of any category season tickets, he would literally send somebody from the league office to be in your office every day until it changed. You’re on alert. If you’re in the bottom third, you’re on exactly you’re. On alert. Well, their books written about the bottom 20% of the bottom 10% right? Like, that’s got to change. And when the Cincinnati Bengals and the Arizona Cardinals and the Baltimore Orioles and the, you know, the Pittsburgh Pirates, these dreg franchises, LA Clippers, forever, like they couldn’t, it didn’t matter if you sent anybody to Cincinnati to try to help the Bengals, they didn’t want to be, they didn’t want to be helped, right? Like, there is that independent part of all the whack job owners that have been awful over our lifetime, right, right? But when that’s right. So one of the reasons you know you get approved to come in is you’re willing to look at that team. Now, if you’re if you’re buying the Mets and you’re Steve Cohen, that’s a different situation. But if you’re buying a team at Baltimore or Tampa, wherever they’re going to share with you all that information and say, Our expectation is that you’ll you’ll make this better, and here’s how you’re going to give us your plan for how you’re going to do that. So, So anyhow, point being is they’re in the process of catching up. Are they trying to catch up all in one year? I don’t know what remains to be seen, but they’re rescaling how people attempting to rescale how people buy tickets in this community, and for the longest time, it’s been a certain way, and you would expect some pushback. What you hope is that for every ticket holder that you lose, you’re able to find somebody else to fill that spot, and that’s why you hire analytics folks and leadership and ticket sellers and all that is to fill those holes every time somebody steps back from their commitment to the team, what do

Nestor Aparicio  31:29

you say to my people who are stuck with a bunch of money on their app? I’m just thinking to myself, I I can’t imagine. To your point, it’s religion, right? Like I said to Howard, who else would rip you off of 1000 bucks that they took from you eight months ago and you didn’t use it, and you would go back and give them another couple grand a month from now, on top of it for next year, where there’s no pro I mean, there’s no saying the team’s going to be better, the experience is going to be better. You’re going to want to go more. So this is what I said to him. I’m like, Why do you buy season tickets? Like, that’s why, for me, I can go every single night, anytime I want, based on the weather. I’m in the mood, I’m not in the mood. Who’s pitching all of that like I have not figured out the balance. And this would be true for concerts, Marty, and before we go, I do want to do the bands that were unappreciated. You gave me that friendly text couple months ago. I made a freaking list, but you had me thinking about it, spanned out ballet, but Live Aid probably started all up as well. But I would just say, like, I don’t understand anyone that would give them 1000s of dollars based on the last 30 years, not Aparicio versus Angelo’s or freedom. None of that just on what you’re getting, what you’re giving in your expectation. I never buy concert tickets ahead of time, especially in an outdoor event, because I don’t want to be stuck with them. I don’t want to have to relist them. And I always seem to get in, and I always seem to get in for far less money than anybody else does all the time. You talk about the value customer here I am. I I think they’re real challenges. How do you snooker my buddy Howard into pulling his credit card back out to get something that he bought last year that he is this is like buying a second stationary bike that’s in your basement you didn’t use, you know? And I’m, I’m blown away at the power of the brand. Bob Leffler once said their brand so big in the last year lifetime. And I’m like, Well, I mean, somebody did say sucker was born every minute, but i The on field thing that’s happened to them this year has been so devastating to people who love baseball, but this price increase on top of how many people I know that gave them money for the first time In 30 years, and feel under served by it, or unmoved by it. I I don’t understand the philosophy. When I say to Howard, why do you buy Well, Orioles, I get picture. I’m like, You didn’t even go. You didn’t even go. You gave him the money. All these things that, these perks, like, I don’t know that they can get enough perks together to get me to give them a couple of grand when I don’t have to. And I can go wherever I whenever I want, sit wherever I want, like the philosophy of my ideology, they’re fighting that every day against anybody who’s sensible. I mean, you can go to an Oriole game anytime you want and sit anywhere you want. Why would I give them money, and that’s a fundamental proposition for me.

Marty Conway  34:23

Yeah, so that I would compare that to when I worked for the team and other teams, you know, I’d go into a client’s office and they would pull out their drawer and say, I have all these unused tickets. What? What should I do? There’s plans for that, there’s ways to engage those people, there’s exchange policies. There’s a number of things. Liberal exchange policies. They’ve done a great

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Nestor Aparicio  34:44

job with that, by the way, because Bob look at Bob Pinkner and people that we knew a million years ago, when the team went sour, they would have stacks of tickets. They would hold them up for me. I was one of the 50 people they call every Friday trying to give tickets away. And when you couldn’t give tickets away once, Sidney ponson and David sague. Came in. It was, it’s, this was a marketplace issue,

Marty Conway  35:03

yeah. So there are many ways that they can handle it. And I’m, you know, they’re in the modern electric so they know the analytics of pretty much, you know, if somebody, like, if you, if you bought a ticket and you didn’t go, it doesn’t matter what sport today, the secondary the ticketing systems are such that you’re going to get an email the next day that says, hey, we missed you yesterday. Tell us what? Like, you know, what was that? But the point was going to make. The larger point is the attempts have always been to get people to buy in advance, because once you buy in advance, presumably your ticket holder, you know, for a long time, but the challenge has been this introduction of the secondary market, the seat geeks, the ticket masters and all that, where I don’t have to buy a ticket from the team. I can buy it on the secondary market, as long as somebody bought it originally and could resell it. And that’s the challenge that they have with people with like the people that you’re talking to, which is, why do I Why would I buy from the team versus wait and buy a week before the game on seat key, take as many tickets as I want, make sure I want to go, make sure the weather’s nice. You know, whatever it is to do, and that’s where they’ve tried to offset that with Birdland memberships, perks, benefits. At some point the team on the field is the one that’s going to determine whether you’re going to buy frequently. Or not. So there’s only a certain amount of rewards. It’s like airline miles. At some point, you know, how many airline miles am I going to get? Am I ever going to use? And how much does it cost me to get those airline miles? So that’s their challenge. Look like I said. I just want to reiterate, the business practices of the team are being modernized. That’s not a story that anybody wants to tell, because, you know, no one cares about that. But underneath everything that’s going on there, they’re trying to bring those business practices and selling practices and monitor revenue and monetization into the middle 2025 and not like it’s 2015 quite frankly, that’s kind of what’s occurring. And we’ll see on the other side. If it’s going to be successful, they’re going to need to get the all star game here. They’re going to need to do some things that cause people to want to buy and stay committed for several years, because they want something like access to the All Star game. When it comes back to Baltimore,

Nestor Aparicio  37:23

Marty, you have done a lot off the field, on the field. I know, what a big baseball fan, you know, what an observer of the sport you are. What do you think of the team? I mean, just the general said, I mean, as a fan of the franchise, clearly, if they have money and they can go buy a couple pictures Rogers, things worked out great. Bradish is back now for a minute at least. So we’ve had some sunshine this week in that way, in regard to what they can be. But if the young guys don’t hit the ball, right, nothing’s gonna if the young guys don’t mature and become star players, they’re gonna have a problem and giving all the money to beside Oh, I thought that was so weird. And Rubenstein showing up on a Saturday afternoon press conference in the middle of the Ravens Redskins game, like, just weird all the way around. And I thought, like it was a little bit of a desperate smack for a headline, but also, he’s the only guy they could sign. They can’t sign Boris guys, so fans are clamoring for something that they just marrying the girl they can’t marry. And to some degree, this last place slog that they’ve had and how bad they’ve been on the field has been just worrisome for me. And I’m really worried that Rubenstein doesn’t know what he’s doing, because I met him, and I walk up to people all the time. I don’t have any sense. I don’t see any signs of life down there that they that this new group gives me any confidence at all, that they’re maybe the baseball side of Elias drafting players I I don’t think I would have fired him for hiding after firing Brandon Hyde for three days. Like to me, Mike Elias is not a leader. He is not inspiring the fan base, motivating ticket buyers, making the team so great that he’s not expendable. And I keep worried about him a little bit, because I’m thinking, if they were going to fire his ass, they’ll do it October 3, and he’ll be the first and last to know, because, like, they’re not going to bleed that out, but it certainly feels like he’s going to survive this.

Marty Conway  39:10

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Marty, yeah, I do. I think given the players that they got back in those trade deadline deals, if you look at it analytically, they got a lot of players back who were second, third or even fourth round draft picks within the last two years, many of them pitchers. And so my presumption is that those are players that they probably would have drafted had they had the opportunity. But in that rebalancing and getting rid of the nine players that went out the door at the trade deadline. They got back players who, I think they must believe are on the cusp of perhaps in particularly pitchers, because they need not only starting pitchers, but they’re going to need bullpen depth. And look this year, they may set the record for the number of players on the roster. I think. The Miami Marlins had 70 players a few years ago on their roster. The Orioles are up to mid 65 something like that. That tells you that they’re just churning through, you know, players, and they’re going to need that. But I agree. I think there’s going to be next year for Mike Elias, but I think that might be the defining year. Like, can you get enough talent in the pipeline again, beyond the gunner Henderson’s and the Jackson holidays and the Samuel bassios People like that. I also think there’ll be some deals this year. I think Richmond is probably a consideration, because he’ll have two years of control mount castles, another guy they probably held on to a little too long. And so this will be a defining year for the on the field product, and they’re going to have to come out next season, hit the ground running. I think they’re going to have to have a, you know, a 30 and 19 start in 49 games, instead of the other way around. For people to believe again, that this is something that’s real, and they’re willing to continue to spend to get behind it.

Nestor Aparicio  41:07

Is there even a thought? And you won’t say this because you you wore the suit and did the job, but they’re not going to really sell any tickets until that happens, right? I mean, they’re not really going to inspire anyone until the middle of May, when we look up at Preakness day and say, you find your manager this may or, you know, and if they’re just 500 if they’re just something that’s not going to be good enough either, I just, and, my God, we’re 40 minutes into this, and we’re kicking off with the Ravens this week. Ravens might win the Super Bowl on top of this too. And that would really, you know, the Ravens should have a January kind of year, so at least they’re, you know, God, if the Ravens fell apart and they’re five and seven and Lamar is hurt, or whatever, we throw the whole year out the window in 2025 let alone know, you know what’s going on down in Washington. But for me, with the football team now moving into focus, this is sort of a last of smoke for the baseball team, because they’re not going to have a lot of oxygen between now and whenever they deal Richmond, or whenever they sign a pitcher, or whatever they do. And to your point, they’ll probably screw that up and do it on a Friday afternoon the weekend the ravens are playing the Bengals or something, you know. So they can only make so much news if the ravens are going to win the Super Bowl. I don’t know that the baseball team is going to be a I’m going to talk a lot about them in the off season.

Marty Conway  42:22

Yeah, no, I look, once the season’s over, you’re right, the Ravens will dominate it up until the winter meetings, which are usually in December, the general managers meetings are in November. There’s not going to be that much to talk about. Will they be able to make that splash signing? Because you’re right. If you want to sell tickets in the fall, you’re going to have to make a or the early winter, you’re going to have to make that splash. Does that sell tickets? It does. It does look. If you look at the numbers, you look at the one so those, you look at the other players that have signed,

Nestor Aparicio  42:54

that’s real. That’s $500 million Corbin burns gets dealt over. Did they really sell tickets that I don’t think they did. I think they get headlines when they but they, you know, they got

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Marty Conway  43:04

a, yeah, that’s a different kind of like I said, I think you need a splash signing, which is, you need an anchor tenant on your pitching staff. I think Bradish could do it, but who knows he’s been injured. I think Rogers could do it, but who knows he’s been off and on. You need that. If you can get one, either through acquisition or through free agent signing. It’s like having a it’s like having the mall at your local area. You need an anchor tenant for the mall. You’ve got to have somebody that can anchor that pitching staff, and then you can build the rest from there. But that’s what they’re going to have to have to I’m sure they know that, but it’ll be difficult. Players are not going to really want to sign until they see how the market is developing. Players generally don’t like to go first because they think they might under value themselves. So but all in all, it’ll be an important off season, on the field, off the field, but for the business of the team, renovations to the stadium. What’s it going to look like next year on opening day. What’s the plan beyond that for the rest of the renovation? How soon could they get the all star game? What’s going to happen in a work stoppage in a year from this December, all those different things are going to be part of the zeitgeist of of the team’s communication efforts. I mean, while the

Nestor Aparicio  44:16

ravens are undefeated right now and they’re going to win the Super Bowl, so that’s all good, Marty Conway is here. He is the sports professor of all things business at Georgetown University, longtime Major League Baseball executive. Did I leave everything? Do you have anything else you want? Because I, I think you, you had some, some Hall of Fame stuff. You got a couple things you talk

Marty Conway  44:32

about, yeah, they just had the Orioles Hall of Fame. And all good news to Joe or select Adam Jones and Tom Davis, who all deservedly to go in. It caused me to go look at the list. I hadn’t looked at it in a long, long time. And I read down the list, and I saw a Jerry Huff burger, Harry Dalton, Hank Peters, all the all the way down, Frank Cashion, all these fantastic people. And it occurred to me in. That several names were missing, but most importantly, Edward Bennett, Williams, Larry lakino, and then ultimately, I think you can go on down the line to Janet Marie Smith, but in the first two cases, I was there on May 2, 1988 when the team had come back from a miserable start, and Ed Williams came into the building drawn from cancer, made the decision to sign that lease, to pledge the team for the next 30 years. He passed away 103 days later. He was not in the condition to do that. He could have easily deferred that decision later, right? And who knows what would have happened, but the fact that he’s not recognized in the Orioles Hall of Fame, to me, is a huge hole. And the second thing is, without an Edward Bennett Williams, there’s no Larry Latino. Larry Latino is in the hall of fame of the padres, the Red Sox and the woo socks, the Worcester Red Sox of the triple A affiliate of the Boston Red Sox. If not for what he did in Baltimore, he’s not even at those organizations. He’s not in Boston, he’s not in San Diego, he’s not in Worcester, and I just can’t get my arm, my head around that that hasn’t been recognized. And then ultimately, he brings Janet Marie Smith on board. There’s Doug Hoffman, there’s all these other people that if Ed Williams doesn’t make that decision in May 2, 1988 who knows what the history of the team is that we’re sitting here talking about, and there’s not even a simple recognition anymore of what he did. We’ve got other owners in the Orioles Hall of Fame. It’s not just that. We’ve got other contributors. You know, Larry was every much, almost, sometimes a general manager alongside of whoever they had hired. So those are the kind of things that I think I just look at that I’m like, there’s a piece, a big piece, missing here that the next time they have these kind of meetings, they need to holistically look at that and say, Maybe we should catch up. Maybe instead of having one contributor per year. Tom Davis was it this year with the Herm Armstrong award? Maybe we need to open that up a little bit and catch up, because you’re never going to be able to truly recognize if you’re just thinking one person a year for the next five years. And I just think a simple recognition of that as well as some other people who contributed along the way. I saw the other day that chip Mason passed away at the age of, I think, almost 90. He was one of the first people to put his name in the stadium from a local advertising

Nestor Aparicio  47:29

8

he was always a guy that was rumored to be, to be, if Peter had died 30 years ago, he would have

Marty Conway  47:33

backed owner, right? I mean, there were, there was Bob footlike was at Bond distributing Miller. Of course it was Robin Bissell at SK. Those are people who put money out there, corporate money and their own personal money, and kept the team in balance before it moved to the new ballpark. And then, of course, we went on a run of four or five years where every game sold out and looked easy, but there were times that it was not easy to sell people on the team. And those are people who said, I’ll do it, and other people follow them in. And I just think that period is not recognized today. And somehow that needs to do that so

Nestor Aparicio  48:09

well in the modern world. Marty, you know this, and I’ll end on this, you know, they need a local chip Mason. They need a Henry Rosenberg. They need a frank Bramble they you know, they don’t have that anymore. And the goodwill that was there 30 years ago is either aged, gone or offended, to be able to bring people in. I don’t know where the Mr. Bigs are here that are going to step up and say, I’m in with you. Aragheti, Mr. New York guy and Rubenstein, Mr. I almost bought the DC team, but I only wanted the baseball like, I don’t know where the Baltimore champions are other than I mean, I’m on Baltimore positive. Where are the rich people that are going to step up and say, We need to keep baseball here? There was no one Rubenstein came from the outside to do that, right? So I am. I’m very perplexed by all of this. And this time next year, write it down, Marty, because we’ve known each other a long time. We’re gonna be talking about a work stoppage. You know that train’s coming for baseball, and that’s really the saddest part of all of this, because that, you know, that’s the train hitting the wall if they try that crap a year from now? Yeah, I think so. Marty Conway, love him, appreciate him. Known him a long time. Always educates me, always educates our audience. Sometimes we fight a little bit, but I always learn something. He’s the good professor of all things Georgetown University. Did I get a B plus in the class? Maybe b minus. Don’t give me a C man,

Marty Conway  49:24

yeah, no, you’re moving on to the next level. You’re definitely passing. All

Nestor Aparicio  49:28

right, I’m at 101. Good to good to know. Marty Conway here, happy football season to everybody out there. But we still got to cover the business of baseball and Camden Yards as they renovate here in this offseason, and the diggers come to dig things up, including the Jim Edmond press box. I am Nestor. We are wnst. Am 1570 Towson, Baltimore. We never stop talking Baltimore positive, even when it’s negative. But we’re trying to be positive. You.