If the Orioles need to rebuild a last-place team devoid of pitching again, then it’s pretty clear that the future of Mike Elias in Baltimore is in deep debate amongst ownership. Luke Jones and Nestor discuss how the potential of the Orioles’ youngest and brightest players got Brandon Hyde fired last week.
Nestor Aparicio and Luke Jones discussed the firing of Brandon Hyde and the appointment of Tony Mancini as the new manager of the Baltimore Orioles. They highlighted the team’s poor performance, with key players like Kyle Gibson and Zach Eflin struggling. They emphasized the need for a new manager to revitalize the team, suggesting names like Joe Maddon or Buck Showalter. They also discussed the broader issues of leadership within the organization, the impact of player development, and the importance of maintaining fan interest despite the team’s struggles. The conversation underscored the urgency for significant changes to avoid another rebuild.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Brandon Hyde, Tony Mancini, Orioles players, Mike Elias, Adley Rutschman, Gunnar Henderson, player development, coaching staff, ticket sales, leadership, rebuild, Baltimore, baseball, ownership.
SPEAKERS
Nestor Aparicio, Speaker 1, Luke Jones
8
Nestor Aparicio 00:02
Welcome home. We are W, N, S, T. Am 15 70,000 Baltimore. We are Baltimore. Positive. I’m getting back from Las Vegas, where I’ve been not really sunning myself. I like to say I’m sunning myself. I’ve been defending myself from the wind and the desert winds out here at the wind and the Encore pool. I’m at the Maryland party. Going to be at Faith Lee’s next Wednesday, doing the Maryland crab cake tour. We’re also going to be up in peril County at Green mount station in Hempstead on the fifth of June. All of that brought to you by the Maryland lottery, along with our friends at Coppin, state and liberty, pure solutions and curio wellness and everybody putting us out on the road to Las Vegas, where I left on Saturday morning, and Brandon Hyde was the manager, and I landed in Las Vegas and Tony manzilino was the manager. Luke Jones still manages all of our baseball coverage, even the Orioles heading out to Milwaukee here this week and the holiday week ahead and a new manager. Luke you and I have done a pretty good hour on the Brandon Hyde. Mike Elias, David Rubenstein, is this the right move to fire the manager? And how the manager got fired, then they went out and played baseball on Saturday and Sunday, and the signs they had, the signs of life, just aren’t there. And we’ve talked so much about the big picture, big picture, I’ll get to Katie Griggs and sales and ticket sales and people cutting their mass and all of that stuff, but you still got to go play 100 baseball games, man, well,
Luke Jones 01:25
and that’s I remember when we were talking about this thing, when there were 140 games left, so 22 games in, and at that point, they weren’t off to a good start. But you know, it’s much earlier. And I even wrote at Baltimore positive.com how that’s either a blessing or you hope it’s not a curse, because if you aren’t meant to turn it around and you just are what you are. And let’s face it, this, this is a bad baseball team, short of them running off like 2020 wins and 23 games or something like that, and then suddenly we’re having a very different conversation. In the third week of June. I mean, they’re just, they’re bad. So when you have to come to that realization, and as we talked about in our previous segment, talking about the fallout of the brand and Hyde dismissal and what it means and all that, that once the dust settles, you still have to play, you know, still have four more months of baseball, four plus, and you have to figure out what you’re going to make of this thing. And that’s not to say talking in terms of turning things around to the point where you’re going to be a wild card team or anything like that. I think any realistic expectation of that has very much sailed. And to your point, you remove Brandon Hyde and then, well, you know, the Tony mancillino era starts looking exactly like the Brit they ended the Brandon Hyde era because, well, more specifically, on Saturday and Sunday. I mean, Kyle Gibson can’t even get it out of the first inning on Saturdays DFA following morning. And Zach Eflin, who normally you look at as a guy, you’d say, Hey, we’ve got, we’ve got a real shot to win. He turns in his worst start in probably six or six or seven years, and easily the worst as an Oriole. So you look at that and you just say, I mean, where do you go from here? And that’s it’s where Tony mancellino has his work cut out for him. I mean, he’s a smart guy. He went to Vanderbilt. He played minor league ball. Was was in the Indian slash guardians system as a coach for quite a few years. And you know, he comes to the Orioles in 2021 as third base coach and but you’re still talking about someone who’s, He’s a year older than me. I mean, he’s not, you know, he’s not someone who has a lot of major league coaching experience, let alone talking about being a manager. So I think it’s he’s got his work cut out for him. The rest of this coaching staff has their work cut out for them. And you know what? We’re going to find out some more about these young guys. Because as much as you know, I don’t want to make too much of the idea that if they play better, then everything’s fine the rest of the way, but you’re going to be in a position where the ballpark’s not going to have much energy, because I think it’s gonna, I think you’re gonna see the impact of attendance, especially as we talk about weeknight games and games that don’t have bobble heads, and they’re
Nestor Aparicio 04:32
back at the point where they’re gonna have to do the five and $6 ticket, absolutely. I mean, just to get anybody to come down there and Sure.
Luke Jones 04:41
8But even that, even that, I mean, you know, again, I said this a little bit tongue in cheek on, you know, talking about Sunday. And, you know, I even I posted on social media, the Orioles are a disaster right now, but hey, at least it’s a beautiful day, like that whole sentiment. I mean, you know, man, it’s summertime. There’s a lot. There are a lot of things to do. We’ve talked about about this in general terms, talking about baseball and its place in Baltimore and in society at large, and all the other outlets for entertainment. There is when you have a team like this that is this bad when it wasn’t supposed to be. It’s one thing to talk about the the rebuild era, when you expect, expected them to lose
Nestor Aparicio 05:23
dude. That’s the thing here. You know David Rubenstein was going to save everything. He was dead and like all of that. And they really are right back where they were with Angela, without and without any report card on Rubenstein, which is part of, like firing i All, and this is what I said to various people in Las Vegas, right? I’m out here at this crazy Maryland party. I said, Look, man, the guy’s a billionaire. He never, nobody knew who he was before 18 months ago. He’s now made his own bobblehead. He sits behind home plate at games. He’s buddies with Cal Ripken. He’s a celebrity, right? If he was out here at this Maryland party, everybody would say, Oh, look, there’s the Orioles owner. He might have been sitting here two years ago as a land development guy out here with other very wealthy people at the pool. And he just would have been a dude. He’s, oh, he manages money. He’s a he’s a fun guy, you know, great. Uh, here, he’s from Baltimore. Here, he’s really wealthy. Great. Now he’s David Rubenstein, famous guy, selfie guy, autograph guy, bobblehead guy, all of that. I don’t know what that means, but I don’t think it’s a good sign. And I’ve said that to people. I don’t think this new group coming in 15 months into this, that there have been really good signs of anything, of anything, of leadership, of stadium, development of baseball, development of recruiting fans, of seeing things being done dramatically differently than they were being done during the Angelo Sarah, there’s no feeling that you’re down there like, Oh, this is different. Look, look at what the new people are doing. They have ideas. They have this. They have that. They have this exciting woman who ran soccer and worked in Seattle, and we’re getting an all star. I don’t feel any of that on the outside, and then on the inside, it’s rotten to the core on the team right now. And that is just something that they thought they had at that in the bag. What they had in the bag was they were going to have a competitive baseball team here as a ramp and a runway for whatever their goals and dreams were with the team, whatever they thought they were going to do, they thought part of that would be maybe not winning a World Series, maybe not even having success in October, but having a really good baseball team to put on the field in May and June and July and August, and hope for the best in September, but like they thought, they had a going concern, and now everyone I’m talked to see this the problem with Katie Griggs and David Rubenstein and the Whistler and these other people, they don’t have 1988 they don’t have that Peter Angelo six, but they don’t have Mike Flanagan suicide. They don’t have the all of those bad years. They don’t have David Johnson’s fire, all the awful things that have whatever has happened here that is perceived as awful, that’s happened that doesn’t stick to Rubenstein and Katie Griggs and doesn’t stick even stick to Mike Elias for the most part, because most of what he did was glorious in that it got better. Now everything is under review, like my press credential, by the way. Now everything’s under review for them. And I mean, you’ve just murdered them for an hour about how everything’s awful, everything’s awful, everything’s awful. I The notion that this isn’t Peter angelos, gives me hope that, well, maybe these people will figure it out, but I don’t see any signs of life in this, and I don’t know what that bold leadership thing would be, that next Monday, they have fired Mike Elias and hired and I’m making this up, Pat Gillick to be the general manager and Bucha Walter to be The manager because it feels good. It feels closer to them hiring Cal Ripken to be the Director of baseball operations, even though he’s too smart to probably take that job and Bill Ripken to be the manager, because it’ll make everybody feel good. You know what I mean? Because at this point, Mr. Rubenstein just wants to make people feel good. Because right now he’s hiding because he doesn’t feel good. Yeah.
Luke Jones 09:20
Again, I all that is there. And I’m not disagreeing with you on that. You know, I’m trying to focus more on the here and now, with Mike Elias as the General Manager, until he’s not right, whenever that might be whether I’m saying
Nestor Aparicio 09:37
is, it could be worse, and it has to do a Nestor around here, it has been worse.
8Luke Jones 09:41
I mean, it has but, you know, we’re starting to split hairs because it’s really bad right now. Um, you know, couple things, and I’ve even said, I said this to you, even talking about this last week. I mean, there are plenty of people down on like Elias, and rightfully so. I’m down on michaelias, to call spade a spade, you’re not going to move on from your general manager two months before the draft, right? I mean, we know that that that would be, that would be ownership malpractice. You know, to me, and I wrote this a couple of weeks ago, I talked about, we talked about this in these terms a couple weeks ago from the time that their record was at a point where you’re starting to say it, it might, it’s getting late early. Can
Nestor Aparicio 10:28
I say something about the malpractice real quick? Just sort of like, then you’re going to let him run a draft, even though he’s lame duck. We’ve seen that before too, right? You know. So there really is that too. I’m just saying, but
Luke Jones 10:38
he’s not lame, but he’s not lame, Doc, I don’t. I don’t. I would reject that right now. I’m not saying he’s lame. Doc, I’m saying that even if you are Rubenstein and you know the principal ownership group, even if you are privately starting to have conversations wondering about that, michaelias, you know, you’re not telling him. He’s, you know, he’s not in the last year of his deal or anything like we assume, all that kind of talk. So, but my, but my point is, logistically speaking, you’re not going to do that same with the trade. Pay
Nestor Aparicio 11:12
8Kyle Gibson more to go away than they’re gonna have to pay Mike Elias or Brandon. I because they weren’t making that much money. Yeah, this is Byron Brian Billick. When there’s $20 million on the demon it’s
Luke Jones 11:24
not, it isn’t at the same time. I mean, I, I mean, I look, I, I’d be talking out of my you know what? I saying that? Because I don’t know. I’m guessing my Goliath was making more money on his current deal than he did in his first deal. And let’s be clear, they had to the Angelo’s family. They had to pay him. I’m guessing he got more than your typical entry level General Manager, because you and I both know how messed up the place was, right and at that point in time, and we can debate how much better it is if it’s better. Now all that,
Nestor Aparicio 11:59
but that really is question now, is it any better? Make it better? And what’s going to make this guy’s decisions better than
Luke Jones 12:06
but again, his family? So so i All of that’s there. All of that is, is the dark cloud hanging over this? But I still want to try to focus on the present. So if you’re Elias, if you’re the Orioles, everyone who’s left at this point in time, everyone but Brandon Hyde, who’s now gone, and Tim cousins as well, who was basically his confidant, closest friend on the team. I, you know, I don’t know how exactly that went down with him being dismissed too. I’m guessing it was kind of, you know, do you really want to hang around or or did he tell them to kick rocks and, you know, he quit, I don’t know. Again, Mike Elias hasn’t taken questions, so we can’t ask about it. We haven’t asked about any of these things yet, but your objective, the rest of the way, is not to salvage 2025 the worst thing they could do would be to start making moves that are singularly focused on trying to make things better this year at the expense of next year and beyond. Now that said, we get to the trade deadline, if there’s opportunities to be a buyer and a seller in the way that okay, you might trade off a Cedric Mullins because you’re not going to extend them, but you might acquire a pitcher that is kind of like this year’s version of Zach Eflin, someone who’s under contract for next year too. I think they should absolutely be in that market. But let me, let me drill down on this a little more if, if this thing is going to be salvaged, if this thing is going to be righted, and they’re back on track next year, and that doesn’t mean they’re winning the World Series next year, but let’s say they’re back on track to where we thought they were going to be this year, which I wasn’t picking them to win the World Series, but I thought they were going to be a player. By the
8Nestor Aparicio 13:44
way, that’s not hard to do, right? Because, like, cows in Westberg, all these three wild cards, right? I mean, they’re all coming back. Sure play next year. I mean, Gunner Henderson is going to get 600 at bats in an Oriole uniform next year, and 300 more this year. Whatever it is, they’re going to play baseball the young guys. This is going to be changing out the tires on Gibson and Morton and some of that nonsense. But the core of this team, as it will come together next year, will have different pitchers, Mr. Andrew, I said, Mr. Angelus, better. Hopefully is going to have to come through with some money to make that happen for this to be competitive. But if they win next year, if they win the 8890 games, which is, you know, a tick up from being a good they’re not a great team, but you’re a good team. 8890 wins, you’re back during the conversation, competitive like that. It’s going to be the guys that stink right now, large exactly who’s gotten better,
Luke Jones 14:37
right? And that’s why, to me, you have to leave no stone unturned, and that’s why it might be you’re looking right now to perhaps bring in a hitting coach that, you know, I mean, the mariners did it with Edgar Martinez late last summer, and go look at what their their offenses look like. They. Year compared to last year. And that’s just an example, right? Brett Boone was hired by the Rangers. You know, we’re going to see how that works out. That’s still relatively fresh, but whatever it is, whether it’s that, whether it’s bro scouting, whether it’s a different man, you know, they hire a manager in August in the way that the Orioles did with Buck Showalter back in 2010 remember Juan Sam? Well, ran the team for two months after Trembley was canned, they weren’t any better, not that, you know, I’m not, wasn’t, not trashing Juan Sam. Well, I mean, but Buck Showalter came in in early August, and they played inspired baseball the rest of the year. What’s kind of ironic is, and I’m not saying Buck himself, but I almost feel like that’s the kind of manager they need at this point, maybe someone who carries some cache. You know, I wouldn’t be the first person that throws this out there, and I’m not even a big I’m not even the biggest fan of this guy in the world, but a Joe Maddon kind of guy, right? I mean, someone who does carry some cachet with some name recognition has won a World Series. Now, I think for me and again I have, I have no idea, again, Michael ice has an answer question so we don’t know. I don’t know what the timeline is. Are you going to absolutely 100% wait till the end of the season to hire a manager, because you do have a bigger pool of candidates to draw from, or do you at least do a preliminary search over the course of the summer, and if there’s someone you fall in love with that you feel could be the right fit and is the right guy, knows enough about analytics, but brings the human element in a way that maybe this young team really needs, and for whatever reason, it wasn’t happening anymore with Brandon Hyde in that way that you hire a manager in August. But whatever the case may be, everything in my mind is about getting this young core back on track. Like I said, Jackson holiday has been terrific for the last month. Go look at his number. Since late April, he’s been, you know, our about April, 20, 25th, somewhere like that, coming up on almost a month. He’s been really good over that time. Made a really nice defensive play on Sunday, albeit in a game that people had tuned out because they were down seven, nothing to get two innings in, hit another home run. You know, he’s looking really good. Gunner has been streaky, but gunner’s body of work this year isn’t so like that. It’s bad that. It’s alarming, and oh my gosh, where is
Nestor Aparicio 17:31
it going to be at the end of the year? Is gunner gonna hit 258 with 28 home runs? Or some of that’s just gonna hit 294 with 34 home runs, sure. And
Luke Jones 17:39
8some of that is like you got they are young that you have to let them play. But in the case of an Adley rutschman, in the case of Heston kerstad, in the case of Kobe mayo, who they need to get back up here at some point, especially if this is a lost season, you’ve got to get him to the majors and just let him play and sink, sink or swim, or you’re going to trade them. But one other thing is work with these kids every day, and who’s going to be right? And that’s so. So whatever it is, whether it’s whether it’s Tony mancillino doing a good job, and maybe he maybe shocks everyone, I don’t know. I mean, I don’t
Nestor Aparicio 18:14
hire a manager next week or ask immediately. I mean, not next week. I have no with Rubenstein. I have no idea. And again, Mr. Big money pants, and Mr. I love myself, and I want a bobble head and all that. He might just be picking up the phone and saying, Get Joe. Maddon, let’s get I mean, let’s get Hall of Fame something, something to come in here, because we need to make this thing smell better right away. Tony manzalino, we’re not going to lose 80 more games with him. Let’s go get your let’s go get buck. Let’s, you know, call Bucha. I hear they like buck here. Buck will help us sell tickets, right? Bucha, come in and say the right things. Luke likes Bucha. The reporters like Bucha. Bucha can come in here and calm things down a little bit. And I don’t know, I all of that to me, feels desperate, but that’s where they are. They’re in a desperate position right now. They really are. But that’s where
Luke Jones 19:02
see, it’s not about, first of all, no manager selling tickets. I mean, Bucha Walter, maybe the first
Nestor Aparicio 19:08
I just think, trying to get over with the fans here, just trying to get over with the fans. I think, I think that that’s their reality show TV now is, I think that’s a misguided way of looking at I don’t disagree with Yeah, but I think that that could, I might say it’s going to happen. I’m right smart. I wouldn’t do that, but I’m not Mr. Rubenstein. I would have made no bobblehead a month ago either, and I don’t know that, I would have just sacked the manager on Saturday afternoon. Like, I don’t know. I don’t, yeah, I am a little more patient, and I’m a little, you know, me a long time, man, I’m a little less concerned with window dressing. I’m I’m much more concerned with what’s really happening than with the perception. I mean, the Ravens live their whole world in the perception of, you know, how can we get, how can we lie and get people to perceive we’re something we’re not. I don’t know what the Orioles are. They are, what they are. They’re a bad team. But now it’s, how are they? Going to do outreach, not just to make the team better, but to sanitize the season a little bit, because they’ve got to fix the base run and hide. You still have tickets to sell next week. You’re still putting the game out there like having Buck Showalter there in in the mind is, in the mind of the owner, might be better than having Tony mancellino there as all I’m saying, and that’s when you mentioned the one, Sam, well, thing that was very weird that year when they buck just showed up in the middle of August, right? Like that was, that doesn’t happen. It doesn’t happen very often. That’s why I think you’re thinking like, Well, man, Selena is going to manage them the rest of the year. I don’t know. I don’t I
8Luke Jones 20:35
don’t know. Well, that’s, that’s one quote that’d be one of my first questions for Mike Elias. You know? I mean, mentally, he was asked, he was asked about it after Saturday’s game. You know, he wasn’t made available before the game. So you have this awkwardness of you lost. So he’s doing, he’s doing a tiny bit of post game, but mainly like, Oh, you’re the, the interim manager of the Baltimore Orioles. Now we’ve talked to you. I mean, even the beat guys that are traveling with the team and and covering 125 games a year, they only have so many conversations with the third base coach. You know what? I mean, you have, you have some, you know, it’s not like he’s, I don’t know the sound of his voice as an example. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, he’s a nice guy. He’s a like, I said, he’s a Vanderbilt guy. He’s smart, like, but is he ready to be the manager of a major league baseball team? Well, we’re going to find out. I mean, I don’t say that to be disrespected.
Nestor Aparicio 21:29
What are his qualifications at this point? Right? Exactly. Well,
Luke Jones 21:33
I mean, you know, he certainly didn’t have the amount of coaching experience of a Brandon Heidi.
Nestor Aparicio 21:39
8How about this? I don’t want to be a jerk, but let me. Let me play one on the radio for a minute. If Tony manzalino were fired tomorrow, would anybody hire him to be their manager? Probably not. Right? No. Okay, well, there you go. So that’s, that’s why I’m saying that. I can say that out loud without, I don’t know Tony, and I’m sure he’s a great baseball man. You don’t get to be in that position without understanding the game and all that. I’m just saying the perception of it is sure, you know, we’re going to fire John Harbaugh and make Zach or the head coach. Well, no one would hire Zach or to be their head coach. You know what I mean. And that’s kind of where it is, and that’s why I’m thinking that they will be looking for a splash in the way that the buck thing happened.
Luke Jones 22:20
You got to hire the right guy and you and they might, and if they do, then I have no faith that that this organization will ever rise to the level that it was 50 years ago. The
Nestor Aparicio 22:30
way they fired him on Saturday was clownish, right? They fire him an hour before the game. They don’t make the other guy available. The gentleman is four hours before the game. Owners. It was a very, very sloppy, clownish firing on Saturday, really. Well, they just put
Luke Jones 22:44
out a press release and they, you know, the general manager makes a statement about the move and and then isn’t available to reporters the rest of the weekend. I think that’s, I think that’s weak. It’s weak. I agree. I agree it’s weak. But whatever they do, whatever they do, whether it’s mancilino the rest of the year, whether it’s higher Buck Showalter or Joe Maddon, or you try to see if you can bring Earl Weaver back from the you know. I mean, like whatever, whatever scheme you have in your mind. Anyone listening, whoever they want to be managed. Let’s hire do that. See, let’s whatever it is, yeah, yeah, whatever, whoever it is, whatever the combination is, even if it’s Mike Elias saying, I’m going to become the field manager, you know, I get whatever crazy concoction you could come up with. They’ve got to get this young core back on track, or no one survives. Not Elias, none of the coaches, no one survives because that’s their only hope, because otherwise you’re back where you were six years ago, and you’re going through a rebuild again. And if their next
8Nestor Aparicio 23:57
best hope is some 19 year old, 18 year old player who’s graduating next week. If that’s their next best hope, then they have lost the generator. They’ve, you know, they might as well burn the I
Luke Jones 24:08
mean, let’s face it, I mean, I know I’m a broken record about this. Like, I’m going to be 42 years old in October. I grew up reading about and watching the miracles on 33rd Street, you know, all the Orioles home videos back then when BCRs were still a thing, and reading about all the all the books and and loving the celebrations and all that. You know, whether it was the final, you know, the final weekend at Memorial Stadium, or all the different celebrations in the 90s and and and through the 2000s you know, the first decade of the 2000s when the the only way they could get people excited was to bring the old timers back and celebrate, you know, some anniversary of something that happened before. But I mean, we’re talking about four decades plus. Not. Single World Series, apparent appearance on a single pennant, three ALCS appearances. I mean, you know, I went through with you how I kind of went through season by season, going over the last 42 years, and how many of those years I would even say were good or even fine. And you know, you’re talking about 10 or 15 years out of all those where you would say, you know, they were okay to good, you know, the rest of it, they were bad or irrelevant or plain terrible. So I think that’s where there’s so much frustration at this point now, when most recently, after what happened at the end of the buck, Dan Duquette era, you know, 2018 where it crashed and burned. And, you know, was burned down to the to the studs. You know, the foundation was completely burnt down at that point. And by their own doing, like they, you know, they could have traded Manny Machado a year earlier, well, and
Nestor Aparicio 25:53
again, I went on this earlier, but that, you know, they allowed you cat to make the to did to make bad was at the end and but
Luke Jones 26:01
8that’s not, but that was an expiring contract all the again, it’s not, it’s not Apple, you know, it’s not apples to apples with Elias. But it is a different scenario in this, in the sense that it’s a new ownership group. There’s an unknown there. These are guys that they did not hire. They came on board. They thought everything was great. You know, I’ve used the analogy. I think both of us have talked about this in terms of the new ownership group. Talked, you know, they came in thinking that they had bought a Ferrari, and suddenly, you know, regardless of all the other non baseball questions about the organization and the business side and all that, but at least you thought the baseball was, I mean, just hum. It absolutely humming. And now, a year later, they’re where they are, but they’ve got to fix this. You’ve got to fix Adley rutchman. I think he can be fixed. I mean, I he was an all star player for two years, and then it’s just like overnight, he’s just become this guy that has been replacement level. It’s been better this year than last year, if you look at some of the walk rate, but not by stuff like that. But no, it’s been better, but not anywhere where it needs to be, right? So I put it this way, the fact that you and I have to debate that point speaks to the how big of a problem it is that I shouldn’t have to look so hard to look for positive signs for Adley rutschman, right? So you look at him, you know? I mean again, Gunner Henderson. He’s the guy that I worry about the least, right? Now, it doesn’t mean that I don’t have any concerns about him. Mainly, he’s really struggled big time against left handed pitching, big time. Jackson holiday is trending. Well, yeah, in fair point, fair point. But he’s the guy you’re hoping is, like, you know the face, right? That your biggest star. You know Jackson holiday. I’m very encouraged by what I’m seeing from him. I’m not ready to anoint him a perennial all star, but I’m encouraged. But you go down the list of Westberg hurt. Cows are hurt, although cows are getting closer to going on a rehab assignment, he’s starting to hit and he’s getting close. You know, cursed at who knows mayo? Who knows bisayo Looks great at triple A. But how many of these guys have we said that about they’re good and trip away, and then they get to the majors, I think for me, and you know, I’ve kind of danced around this a little bit, whoever the manager is going to be. And I don’t, again, I don’t even, I haven’t thought about it enough to really have an opinion that I feel enough conviction about to share other than this point, I think it does need to be someone who does have some cache. It doesn’t mean that they’ve had to have won a World Series, but let’s say it’s someone that you’ve heard of. Let’s say so. But maybe the biggest point beyond just it needs to be a good baseball man and a good manager, and he needs to know his stuff, you know. And this might sound a little jerkish, but I’d like them to hire a manager who doesn’t give two, you know, what’s that? The fact of all these guys were on the top 100 prospect list, you know, part of me does wonder if coddling in some way, maybe a little bit, and I don’t mean that in the sense because, again, that comes across as totally disrespectful to Brandon Hyde or and it’s not him individually. I’m saying that about, I’m saying in terms of just the way this whole thing’s been built. It’s all been about Adley rutschman, Adley rutschman, Adley rutschman, Gunner, henders. You know, go those names we’ve talked about. We were talking about Adley rushman three full years before he ever stepped foot with the with the in the majors. But that
Nestor Aparicio 29:45
speaks to the problem that Angelo’s left behind with Matt leaders and going back to Jeffrey Hammonds, you know, every draft pick has to save the team in some way. Dude, anybody watches baseball like you and I knows how hard that is. But
Luke Jones 29:57
Michael, you know over life. He, Michael is deliberately did that, though I agree with that point as far as the history of the franchise, but this is what he didn’t draft pitching. He drafted all these college hitters, and in the case of Henderson and holiday high school guys, but hitters, hitting, hitting, hitting, position players, position players, position players. So when you’re pitching fails to the degree that it’s failing, which is less surprising, as we’ve said all along, for your offense and your position talent to not look all that impressive, it’s just call a spade a spade. That’s a major problem. So you know, what needs to be revamped with your hitting instruction, your hitting philosophy, what needs to revamped in terms of the coaching staff, what needs to be revamped in terms of the manager, all, all these different things. I do wonder if, if there’s something to the idea. And again, that doesn’t mean that the new manager has, has to come in and be a jerk. That’s not what I’m saying here. But I do want it to be someone that will have, kind of have fresh eyes here, I wonder. I’ve said this to you, you know, even going back to last year, you know, when in the second half, I do wonder if complacency hurt this team in terms of them becoming as good as they became two years ago. That quickly, right rutschman arrived. They they started winning almost overnight. They felt easy after it was, yeah, hard again today, but they had that 10 game winning streak in that July, you know, right before they traded Mancini, you know, and they got over the 500 mark. They were over 500 the rest of the way. They hung around the wild card race, all of that from that point. From that point until last July, things felt really easy, and they had this they exuded this confidence all the comeback wins. What was the last time this team had a comeback victory? Meaning, like they were down two or three runs going into the eighth inning? I mean, you can count on one hand and have fingers, well,
Nestor Aparicio 31:59
they haven’t had a big hit all year. They don’t have runners. The second half
8Luke Jones 32:02
of last year is when that really started. So, I mean, maybe it was a house of cards. Maybe they did play over their heads big time a couple years ago, and it’s just come crumbling down because they didn’t, they didn’t strengthen the foundation nearly enough, or
Nestor Aparicio 32:18
adjust, make adjustments to what’s going on to this. So it’s just,
Luke Jones 32:21
but all of that, all that being said, and again, I think you’re hearing, I’m struggling to contextualize and verbalize all this, because, again, I struggle with, I had a lot of conviction about what they were doing. Now, I didn’t love the off season, you know, I made that clear, but I still pick, you know, the jokes on me. I still picked them to win, like 88 or 89 games, whatever I end up deciding. So clearly, I was wrong, you were wrong. Mike Elias, obviously was wrong, but
Nestor Aparicio 32:49
8hang on. Hang on a second. Let me defend Brandon Hyde. Let me be his wife for a minute here and say Rodriguez cows are understood. Westberg, let me go down the line, they
Luke Jones 33:03
didn’t have excellent but so many guys have just played poor. Even the guys that have been available though have played poorly. Though that that’s from that that’s been for me, what has was, why purse that
Nestor Aparicio 33:13
mayo? Rush me focus. Yeah, fundamentally
Luke Jones 33:16
poor, like all these things where you looked at things that you looked at and said, What is Brandon Hyde bringing to the table in terms of getting these guys out of this? Well,
8Nestor Aparicio 33:26
this is also, why is Brandon high playing Mateo in the outfield stuff? It’s like, that’s what he had. He didn’t buy the he didn’t he didn’t go shopping for the ingredients. He just had to be. He’s a chopped episode. You know, I I understand.
Luke Jones 33:38
And again, anyone who thinks that this was all brand a major Brandon Hyde problem, I think you’re kidding yourself. And I called it scapegoating earlier. That’s what I would just call it. And it’s fine. Like I said, I was at a point where I think I needed to see a move, because their focus and all that is just crumbled. I mean, just, and that’s the manager we talked about that, and that’s what I’m saying, and that was the part I was holding Brandon Hyde accountable for, you know, so
Nestor Aparicio 34:06
but based on the first evidence and the other aftermath, it didn’t matter.
Luke Jones 34:10
8I know you were traveling. Man, Friday night was, oh no, I watched Friday night’s game, but it was all it was a disaster,
Nestor Aparicio 34:19
not even turning around with the winning runs
Luke Jones 34:24
that and rutchman on the pass ball and not running hard after the ball, and he goes to third, and he would have scored anyway, from second on. What was it? I think wood. I think it was wood. Single demand. Whoever singled him in would have scored. But those two plays alone, and then, oh yeah, 15 guys left it on base. I mean, that’s why I said Brandon Hyde’s post game was different that night. I think he knew that it was coming, whether it was gonna be the next morning or whether to be in two weeks. I think he knew this is not getting better, and he was smart enough to recognize how that typically goes. Typically when you have that the manager goes. Dollars. But whatever they do, they’ve got to get the arrow trending up on at least most of these young guys. Now, it might turn out that Heston kerstad is more of a fourth outfielder, bench player, and if that’s the case, so be it, right? But you seem
Nestor Aparicio 35:16
got to call Kyle Stowers a quad A player till he’s got a dozen. Hey,
8Luke Jones 35:19
I absolutely called Kyle. And you know what? I’m glad I’m wrong about it, because Kyle Stowers is great kid. I’m happy for him. And again, there you go. What is there something in their player development that they get to trip away, but then these too, many of these guys are plateauing. Is there, is there a gap? Is there something that’s missing? And that’s where they need to look at their manager situation. That’s where they need to look at their coaching. That’s where coaching. That’s where they need to look at all their this team loves to talk about its processes. Well, you need to be critical. You need to be introspective as far as why this has gone as badly as it has, and you need to adjust. I don’t think it’s too late, but, man, if they just go through the motions the rest of the summer, and all these young guys continue to either have the arrows sideways or downward, then, I don’t know,
Nestor Aparicio 36:11
save this team in the near short term, are the five or six guys into a burning in the lineup right now, right and again, and with the pitching, I never think Rodriguez or Bradish or any of those guys Like I mean, the fact that Batiste is back and is okay, you know, okay, enough to be the closer on a last place team, okay? I mean, I
Luke Jones 36:28
mean, I think, I think, I don’t think now Rodriguez, with it being multiple things over the last four years, now that’s a little bit of a difference. You’re
Nestor Aparicio 36:37
8gonna get position players back. Colton cows go play in a big league again. I’m not sure. Grayson there’s a pitch. I don’t know. I don’t you
Luke Jones 36:43
know Bradish in a big picture sense. Now, rest of 2025, is it really even gonna matter? Are you even do you decide to take a more conservative approach with him? Now, knowing that it’s probably not, you know, it’s not gonna matter, wins, law, wins and losses wise. But it’s, for me, it’s fine to say yes, Kyle Bradish is going to be back for 2026 you cannot continue to put all your eggs in the hopes of that. That needs to be, hey, if Kyle Bradish is back and he’s our number three next year, awesome. But like you need to look at this in terms of who’s your number one going to be? Who’s going to be number two? Are you going to resign? Sugano, are you going to resign, Eflin? Are you going to trade those guys? Because we’re having a different conversation now, in terms of, to me, I’d like to extend Zach Eflin, not on a crazy deal, but a two or three year deal. I think I’d be okay doing that. But if Zach Eflin has no interest in doing that, because he sees what the vibe is around these parts right now and he’s not feeling that, then guess what you need to do? You got to trade them at the deadline. Probably, if you, you know, can get something for them which you should be able to so you know that, like I said, this is a different type of year now in terms of what you’re planning to but at the top of the list, gotta get these guys right. I mean, gotta fix Adley rutchman.
Speaker 1 38:00
I think he’s unless he’s just bad, which
Luke Jones 38:04
he he really fooled all of baseball for two years. Because, I mean, he was a two time all star. He got MVP votes, you know, like fringe down the list, MVP votes, but votes nonetheless. You know, is that guy just gone with
8Nestor Aparicio 38:19
his spirits, gone right? Like his body language, all of that and that. And you know what? I’m
Luke Jones 38:23
glad you brought that up, because I’ve been talking more in terms of the production. You got to get someone like whether it is Joe Maddon or Bucha, you know? And again, we’re using names, because people know these names, right, whoever it is, and you got to get these guys feeling good about themselves again. And that’s not to say that Brandon Hyde was like that. It was his fault that it got to that point, but he wasn’t getting them out of that right. And that, to me, was part of you got to make a change here. Maybe Tony mancillino has got some interpersonal skills that we don’t know about that will help. It didn’t show up the first two games, but maybe, maybe. So who knows? Who the heck maybe that’s why Mike Elias appointed him rather than Buck Britain, like a lot of us thought might be, you know, might be the case, but whoever it is, man, because I do think a lot of it is between the ears for these guys. I absolutely think that’s, you know, it’s not the base talent, that’s for sure. I hope not, right? I mean, we, that’s we. I agree with you, like that’s what
Nestor Aparicio 39:22
we face. Talent was graduating from AAA and being a big league player. And we’ve seen holiday struggle with that. We’ve seen we, you know, we clearly seen Kobe Mayo struggle with that. Has to curse that all these
Luke Jones 39:34
8guys got her the first couple months.
Nestor Aparicio 39:35
And 23 was like that, yes. And they, you know, like any player worth his saw he says the jump for triple A the big leagues is bigger than any Yeah,
Luke Jones 39:45
right, but the creams got to rise to the top, right? I mean, we also know that quad A players do exist sometimes. I mean, the Orioles had plenty of them going back to, going back to some of the names you mentioned, not Jeffrey Hammonds per se, but you know, I mean, we all remember. Were some guys that were hyped and Calvin Pickering, right, and guys like that where, you know, then they got to the majors, it’s like, oh yeah, that’s not gonna play so, but whoever it is, man, they’ve got to get these guys just, you know, you’ve got to get them feeling good about themselves again. And that’s that’s a really easy kind of no brainer statement to make, but that’s a hard question at this point. When you’re talking about a team that’s out of it, it’s
Nestor Aparicio 40:29
hard to stop losing man, it really is, and it gets really contagiousy and and they’re about to go into a hole here as a franchise, in regard to where they wanted to grow everything about the franchise. But you know what? The subscribers, fans, tickets, money, deals, all those things that city, which is most important to me, all of those things were there. None of that can happen with this brand of baseball.
8Luke Jones 40:53
This is where I think it’s interesting, because this guy’s going to be talked about a lot as a, you know, trade deadline expiring. You need to lean on Cedric Mullins right now, in terms of he played on some of those really bad teams. I mean, Cedric Mullins was a 3030, player in 21 when they lost 110 games. So that’s not to say that you become, you know, that’s not a mindset like, oh, you become a selfish player, or anything like that. But how do you motivate yourself
Nestor Aparicio 41:20
your position and your best baseball, right, regardless of what the team results might do, right? The base is smart, and you take advantage of the four or five at bat you get. So that’s where, yeah,
Luke Jones 41:31
so that’s where like, and that’s not to say that they haven’t already been trying to do that, but now, when you’ve crashed and burned to the point where you’ve cost your manager his job. You’ve got to you’ve got to be able to bring your own energy. You’ve got to be able to, as a group, dig yourselves out of this, to to continue to be professionals and show up and play hard and start playing better. Start winning a few more ball games. Start winning a few more series. Is it going to save your season? No, I think that ship has sailed. But to your point, you can avoid not being 110 loss team like they were a few years back, and at least get to the point where you feel in August and September, as guys are coming back from injuries, as we’ve talked about, you can feel like, hey, this isn’t going to happen for us this year, but we’re feeling good about where we are as a club going into the off season. We need our general manager to go out and make some way better moves than he did the last couple off seasons. But if we do that, then we feel like, hey, whoever our manager is going to be all that we’ve got this thing back, moving in the right direction. Again, easier said than done, but that’s the only way, because otherwise, then, yeah, we are talking about a new GM and another rebuild. And I just, I can’t even shut her to think about it, because it’s that miserable thinking about the idea of going through that again, because they’re kind of indirectly going through it right now, because they’re already at a point now where your season shot, so you’ve got to try to make the best of it.
Nestor Aparicio 43:02
Well, I think the most damning thing you said, the players got the manager fired. That’s how bad they’ve been. And we’re going to be monitoring and loose watching the games. I’m watching the games. I’m in Vegas at the Maryland party. Had a a technical snafu out here that didn’t allow us to do podcast out here. But I’m going to get all the guests on when I get back. We’re going to be at fade leads next Wednesday, Cardinal. Cardinals are in town. And then on the fifth of June, we will be at Green mount station in Hampstead, doing it all for the Maryland lottery. I’ll have those scratch offs from Back to the Future to give away as well. We are going back to the future of bad baseball. We are going to be watching the games, talking about the games, trying to figure out how they pick themselves up, dust themselves off as an organization. First things first. Where’s the leadership? I’m Nestor. He’s Luke. We are wnst. Am 1570 Towson, Baltimore, and we never stop talking Baltimore. Positive. You.
