Blowing the whistle on lousy officiating in sports

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Bill Cole and Nestor discuss bad officiating and fairness in sports competition – especially when you’re wagering on it!


people, money, week, talking, years, referees, questions, game, baltimore, john, angelo, literally, ravens, good, win, dennis, stadium, put, maryland, call


Bill Cole, Nestor J. Aparicio

Nestor J. Aparicio  00:01

Welcome back WNS T testimony more and Baltimore positive. We are positively taking the show out on the road if you’ve been listening, you do know this. All of our friends, sponsors, clients, political people, all sorts of athletes, all sorts people coming out and doing things here. It’s the barrel of crab cakes represented by the Maryland lottery conjunction with our friends at window nation and Jiffy Lube MultiCare. It’s coming to Coco’s on Wednesday. We’re going to be at the BMA at gertrudes on Thursday, really looking forward to that crab cake and a chat with John shields, who apparently has some sort of like Maryland style obey peanut brittle which is going to lay on me as well. Friday we’re going to be back up at Hollywood casino in Perryville Tom Kelso former Maryland stadium authority chairman will be with us. And then this is going to be the fun part next week. We really get into the holidays like next week’s the week, I allow Mariah Carey to be played around here. I start to sing, you know, Do They Know It’s Christmas time and stuff like that. And we’re going to begin our true Christmas seasonal. Fair at State Fair and gates will be there on Tuesday morning, doing a special coffee chat with friends and sponsors. You know, Bilko I have your cool roofing mug out with royal farms coffee and when I get together at State Fair, and it won’t be royal farms coffee next Tuesday. It’ll be that French press that they make they’re at State Fair for me it gets me all amped up and awesome chicken and waffles and whatnot. But to get over there on a Tuesday morning. You meet Dennis and reminds me of my early days in radio when Harry Shriver who was the original if you think of Oriole magic and how Oriole magic happened Harry Shriver was the guy that did that. He was the guy who ran W FBR who put Ekman on the air sometimes abbreviated sometimes not hire John Miller. That’s all Harry Shriver did all that the late great Harry Shriver, and Harry loved afternoon live. He had this thing called conference call that he put on the air. I think it’s C A O or CBM 100 years ago. And it would be like you, me, Dennis and Leonard. And man, wouldn’t that be a group? Right? You have me? I mean, I can’t think of four more different human beings right? Like you know, Dennis’s Creek old country runs a car dealership grew up in the east side when Cydonia play football at VT letter grew up at a Liberty Road and Reisterstown Road and manage his money and then there’s you run around on roofs three generations since 1919. Same as my dad and then there’s there’s me and the four of us would get together and talk about ish you know, I don’t even know what it’s gonna be. But I’m figuring that that’s a 55 That’s that’s where Baltimore positives leaning now it’s you me and Dennis getting coffee and shrimp and grits over at State Fair and saying are the Ravens a fluke or the Ravens Fluke Bill Cole?


Bill Cole  02:52

I mean, I really hope that and no disrespect to Dennis or oh man, what’s the letter letter letter? Sorry. Yeah, Raskin Right. Like you better pull better guests in that are there Ballmer positive is gonna go down. Well, I

Nestor J. Aparicio  03:08

don’t know what you would Dennis getting together. I don’t even know if you’ve dentists have ever been in a room together on the radio together all the time. And that’s that that’s part of the plague Right? Like I birth Baltimore positive during the plague. And and I remember and I told my wife this because like, we’re doing this thing next week with Dan Rodricks. And Dan’s gonna be on the show Thursday over at the BMA and we’re gonna feature the BMA folks and Odette Ramos, Councilman Ramos is coming over short district sheets vegan crabcake. And John apparently makes pretty good one over there. gertrudes. So you know, I get around and I’m doing all this stuff with sponsors and getting people out. I’ll say this man, sports and where I am and changing from NST to Baltimore positive and thinking like on a Monday morning after the Ravens win in LA weather you rather listen to me and Luke talk intelligently or take your your phone calls over it. You know, corporately owned FM radio and whatnot. You underestimate the power of three business owners with three sides of Baltimore to get together to bang pots and pans about whether Lamar Jackson’s effete or not. Right.

Bill Cole  04:19

So I don’t I don’t actually underestimate it. But I believe that it’s appropriate for us to have an element of humbleness and just recognize that, you know, that would be a very different discussion that and maybe, I think to the point of this, like maybe people enjoy that right like, oh,

Nestor J. Aparicio  04:40


they love conflict looking. I don’t

Bill Cole  04:43

know, I don’t know all the stats, and I don’t have the insider info. I’m just a dumb roofer watching the football game on Sunday night and saying, yeah, like, I can’t believe the Chargers didn’t beat us. Like they seemingly move the All at will. And for once in my life, I felt like maybe the referees have been told that the ravens are good for the NFL. So we get the benefit of the doubt. But then decina

Nestor J. Aparicio  05:13

Schmidt had to seed out of bounds when he pushed the quarterback.

Bill Cole  05:17

Right. And it’s not the first game where I felt like that. So that’s why I’m thinking that, you know, it’s like the NBA referee guy who got in trouble for gambling at the same time, was his there’s


Nestor J. Aparicio  05:30

no question that the New England Patriots got off scot free for all the cheating they did. And that cheating and lying is a horrible family trade at this point, you know, the matt Weiss thing and his brother out in Michigan, I mean, doing highly illicit stuff, right? And, you know, Michigan’s gonna go play for the national championship. So like, it doesn’t, the cheating pays off. You know what I mean, the lying pays off and like, I don’t,

Bill Cole  05:59

I think there’s no point with that. I don’t agree with that.

Nestor J. Aparicio  06:02

I mean, I think in the NFL, to your point, that Bob Kraft and the Patriots were given special treatment by the committee thing that there’s no question about

Bill Cole  06:11


that. I think that refereeing has so much subjectivity to it. That when a capitalistic league tells the referees, what is best for the league, that influences how a person will see a play. You can call the police department.

Nestor J. Aparicio  06:36

Right? Like you and I can take this to another level how you police is how you tell your police department to police. Right for sure.

Bill Cole  06:44

So I felt like maybe maybe we’re in the good graces right like maybe the Ravens winning Lamar all that is good for football. So, you know, we get the benefit of the doubt sometimes

Nestor J. Aparicio  06:57

being healthy is good for football, right? But so is Joe burrow being healthy and so and that’s why you don’t shove the quarterback out of bounds like like, you know, Justin Herbert being healthy is good for the NFL. It was way better to he was playing then whoever the hell their backup quarterback was on Saturday on Sunday night, right? Like, we’re at the point in the year where they play football all day, Thursday, all day Friday. So all night, Sunday, all all afternoon Monday, like Christmas, they’re playing every minute of the Christmas holiday. They’re playing all day Christmas Day. They’re playing one o’clock, four o’clock, eight o’clock, because they don’t want the NBA getting it on Christmas Day because the NBA has gotten no Christmas Day because they refuse to play at one point right? So they got games in three cities on Christmas Day. They have a game of Christmas Eve night. Like like Christmas Eve night like my family’s having dinner like 55 years now it’s been going on. So to think that the league and throwing media members that by the way, the Charlotte Observer, I’ll give you a little the guy Tepper richest guy in America, right Tepper owns the Panthers fired the head coach, who is Frank Reich, architect of the greatest comeback in NFL history. He’s won Super Bowls. Philly special, like Frank Reich, a man of God. I mean, the Frank Reich is Frank Frank would never do anything wrong. Right? Like Frank writes a straight he turned to I forgot he uttered, right gets fired. Right? And the complementation columnist from the Charlotte Observer, the mike Preston, stat in the front row, raising his hand to ask a question. And they and the Chad steel of the Panthers refused to call on him. At a press conference, this happened 36 hours ago. We’re going to the point where to your point, the officials, there’s no accountability. They have a commissioner who has a billion dollars in the bank, the man who runs the league has become a billionaire, a billionaire, as the CEO of the company, right? They’ve gone legal with gambling that they and I always say this to John Martin. I mean, God knows I respect my gambling money. I’m gonna be in Hollywood Casino. I give away lottery tickets, I’ll be giving them away all week. The lottery isn’t rigged, the lottery isn’t. John Martin decides red or black or fair or unfair or foul or no foul or flag or no flag? Like, right? They are policing who’s winning bets, like, at some point that’s going to wind up in DC under the little white thing that Trump tried to take over three years ago. Like at some point, it’s not going to go the part that you jump in on is when there’s a bad call from an official whatever the bad call is the league’s rigged now and that’s your independence. That’s you’re not being a Democrat or Republican and sort of questioning everything. But I see it along Twitter X, whatever the hell they’re threads, whatever they’re calling it this week. Whenever these calls are made, everybody thinks the league’s rigged and people think the league’s rigged because Bubba Smith said it was 15 years ago. Right? Yeah,


Bill Cole  10:07

I rigged is an extremely.

Nestor J. Aparicio  10:11

I never say that. By the way, I just, I don’t really use hard, you will never see the piece on me saying the referees are crooked, I think influenced

Bill Cole  10:20

is all. Okay, if you don’t believe I mean that they’re under

Nestor J. Aparicio  10:26


compensated based on the fact that they’re making calls, that literally billions of dollars are going to flush left or right on whether that’s a 15 yard penalty. And the charges go in and lead seven to nothing or not, right? Like

Bill Cole  10:39

we we’ve talked a number of times about, like my coaching my daughters and I coached my son and like, the way I coach is, we have to play the game in a way that eliminates refereeing from influencing the outcome. Like we have to have such a lead, we have to be in such control. Because they’re humans, and by nature, they’re going to make a mistake. And we don’t want that one mistake to be the difference in the game. So we’re gonna win in spite of right, but

Nestor J. Aparicio  11:17

that’s when the leaks that we’re gonna get replay. Right? I mean, at some point, if they were really serious about first downs, that the ball would be chipped, right? Like literally 10 yards would be 10 yards, and it would be chipped. If they were really measuring this thing. And we were playing checkers or chess or Domino’s, where there’s an absolute answer, right? Even a roll of the dice where there’s an absolute answer, as opposed to well, this official spotted it here and that official spotted there. And you know, in that 30 seconds, like seriously, in that eight seconds, where the female line judge comes down with the ponytail, the referee comes over the back, they all look at each other. You know, at that moment, they’re just guessing, you know, at that moment, they have a difference of opinion. It’s been where they were. And now the video is supposed to be the bill, we’re gonna see this now we’re betting on baseball, we’re betting on every pitch. I mean, I have never heard or seen a bunch of old white people yell for computers more than they do around the strike zone for baseball, because it’s on every pitch on video. And Ben McDonald and Jim Palmer are reacting to it. And the thing that always weirds me out is the box is always the same. I’m five foot nine. And Aaron judge is six foot 10. And we have the same strike. So like all of this sports stuff is always been judgmental, very nebulous, very open the AMA called nasty Nestor on Monday and said referees rapists publish me told me they were and I’ve been on the Ravens the other night at cover. So I’ve been hearing that forever. But if they wanted this, they wanted this to be measured, that it would be it would be properly measured, it really would be it’d be better than nine referees. You fly in from the roofing job, and run around and try to figure out where the ball landed.

Bill Cole  13:11

It’s not rigged, it’s just influence Right? Like that. You gotta watch the documentary.


Nestor J. Aparicio  13:20

I think it’s more incompetent than it is, or whatever.

Bill Cole  13:24

I think those guys are really good. Actually, I think the referees are really good. Like you have to understand like, you’re attempting to keep track of, you know, four to 40 Guys, and they weigh 280 pounds. And I mean, look,

Nestor J. Aparicio  13:40

I’ve been on the field a million times. I mean, I’ll never be on the field again, thanks to Chad Steele appreciate that Chad, who was on the field sitting in the middle of the shot in the postgame which cracks me up, but he didn’t want his face on TV. By typing down on the field, the referees it is it’s kind of like seeing an animal house where the guy has the marbles. You know what I’m saying? Like you know and all as well, and I mean, they’re getting pushed. I saw the other day official got got his got his his jaw. And I’m surprised that doesn’t happen more often in the scrims. But they’re getting yelled at the whole game. hardball is yelling Adam Thomas yelling, everybody’s yelling at him. And they’re trying to try to officiate the game. I mean, it’s not Marty Conway is an official I have him on all the time. And my friend Ken, who comes after a lot of our crappy officials it like it’s really difficult. And that’s my point. My point is if elite wanted to get it, right, they would go beyond human. They would go beyond video that that’s poor. I mean, what’s really poor is when the video shows something, and they call it the other way. That’s when you sit at home with your wife and say, well, it’s not rigged, it’s influenced, right?

Bill Cole  14:51


i You can’t totally take subjectivity out of it because there’s holding on every play, but we only call thing if it influences the play, right? So like, that’s weird. Sure we can measure stuff better. I agree. But we all recognize and it taught, it’s talked about all the time. They, they pick certain things, and we’re going to, you know, we’re going to really focus on oh, we’re not going to allow that. And we and in that in the NBA documentary thing about the guy who was gambling, they talked about one season, they, the little hook move that Jordan would do on the baseline where he literally hooked him with his other arm. They weren’t, they wanted to start calling that. So he goes into a game, and he starts calling it and he calls it on Jordan. And they go to timeout, and the other officials come to him and they’re like, What, are you stupid? Yeah, we’re supposed to call but we’re not supposed to call it on him. So it’s, if we know that they are telling officials to focus on one rule, and one interpretation, we’ve

Nestor J. Aparicio  16:02

heard preferred strike zones for pitchers. Yes, that is,

Bill Cole  16:06

I mean, we know that that is part of the game. So you have to accept it. The point is, you got to play so that I don’t accept

Nestor J. Aparicio  16:15

that as part of the game. I think that’s the commissioner can’t can’t run the game that way. And they can’t if they’re running the game to make things easier for Lamar than their make, because they love Lamar and Lamar is good for television, then they’re running a sham League.


Bill Cole  16:30

They’ve been doing that forever. Think about all the changes they make on like, receivers on the you know, can push them out and can’t push them out. Pass interference. The horse they

Nestor J. Aparicio  16:42

don’t get simply stuff that will check had monkeys and trees filming harpaz brother had the other horror balls assistant, Matt Weiss. I got emails from like, literally openly, brazenly attempting to cheat. And I’ve always found that to be interesting about hardball is like his whole thing is that his whole background is in paranoia. Everything’s paranoia, paranoia. The people are the most paranoid, the people that cheat. I mean, Bella check, had made a career out of this taking air out of the football is is a real thing. Like that’s not a joke. We turned it into the flaky and all of that. It made them not fumble the football. Like if you go back and you look at the statistics of the New England Patriots more than any team in the history of history of teams, they never fumbled the football at home ever. And they ran the ball in the cold all the time, and never fumbled it, because there was no air on the football. And I remember that from playing on the fields. It Colgate Elementary, and I was nine years old, when the ball was squishy, you can punch it out. It’s this isn’t rocket science. So they didn’t pay any price for that, like at all. And so they’re cheating at the highest level cheating each other. I mean, come on, man. We’re in a conversation here. They don’t even have the integrity to like, say what is and isn’t a real media member. Like I just don’t get Charlotte, the owner will take questions after firing his third coach. And for years.

Bill Cole  18:12

We have we’ve talked about that a little bit accountability

Nestor J. Aparicio  18:15

issue. And the refereeing sits in the middle of the squishiness of where it affects the outcomes of games, and it affects your bet. And he didn’t know that’s why it gets talked about.

Bill Cole  18:29

You need to know going in. They are 100% working every day to control their product. They are trying to control their product and make as much money as possible.

Nestor J. Aparicio  18:42

Well, how about this? How about this last week with the thing on his arm? Right? It would have affected the line right? So Cincinnati hit it in the same way that Chad Steele throwing me out allows one less person in there to know anything or to ask anything or to find anything out and the Cincinnati Bengals old won over the league then goes out to Mike Florio and in the postgame show, oh, we’re gonna be looking at this because you know what? This affects your money, your bets? Bet bet bet bet bet bet bet this affects your bets. It affects the competitive balance of the game. You know, Harbaugh would do that in a heartbeat. They all and that’s part of the book is that you’re you’re you’re trying to get honor amongst thieves like yes, literally. Yes. That’s why it needs to be harder policed.

Bill Cole  19:36

Don’t have an expectation that the minute you mix sports, which drives the Uber competitive to work so hard that they’ve got to the pinnacle of their sport,

Nestor J. Aparicio  19:50

they would stick needles in their arms, they would do

Bill Cole  19:54

anything to win, and then add on top of that. Billions of dollars. Like, you can’t underestimate that the combination of those two are going to create outcomes that you and I see as we couldn’t

Nestor J. Aparicio  20:07

believe that somebody would cheat to win a bike race, right? Like, imagine how much you would cheat to win an NFL game.

Bill Cole  20:15


Anything, right? And so, or to beat Ohio State, and there is a difference hold on this, there is a difference, right? There is a difference between pushing the media out, okay. And then going to your state and local governments and asking for $1,000,000,000.06 100 million wherever that number lands, okay? Because when you don’t give me as a taxpayer transparency and access, then you are not entitled to my tax dollars. That’s a difference. If you want to be a completely private enterprise, you can behave any way you want. And then it’s up to us to decide whether we want to buy your product. Right. But the minute you start taking tax dollars, you have there’s a different standard of care, in my opinion, right? You have to

Nestor J. Aparicio  21:10

that should be everybody’s opinion bill. And you’ve just said it very eloquently, like to the point where I’m going to transcribe that and pull it out and use that as a quote for all times, right. Like, literally, I don’t know that you could repeat what you just said, because it was so beautiful. But yeah, like true. Yeah, you’re taking our money, you’re held to a higher standard. And

Bill Cole  21:28

my core problem is, is that not everybody that paid into that pool, gives, you know, to issue about football, right? Like, there’s a lot of people who don’t, and there’s a lot of people who don’t go to those games, and there’s a lot of people that don’t watch them on TV, and they can literally care less, but for the Civic good. You know, this decision is made. I appreciate I have argued

Nestor J. Aparicio  21:52

on behalf of that for 37 of my 39 years here, and I’m still not even arguing against it. But Tom counselor this week at the Hollywood casino up in Maryville, we are educating people as to what the deal is. You know what I mean? Like the fact that it’s already happened, you already given them $1.2 billion. And they’re like Oliver Twist, they said, please send more more. That’s not enough. And that’s where this is with Angeles. I mean, Rashad, he’s half embarrassed about all this, because he doesn’t want any questions. He doesn’t want any oversight. He doesn’t want questions from me. He doesn’t want to deal with me down in Florida asking him about this money and what he’s going to do with it, or Chad Steele or Sashi brown whoever the hell he is. That, that their whole thing here and this is this is the real story is they don’t have to fight. They’ve got Fredo out in front with a lawyer from Venable running the Maryland stadium authority. Craig Thompson. Westmore, who’s gone. Code silence so far with me. And at some point, we’re gonna have to have answers. They bled some stuff to Jeff Barker the other day, that’s sort of the bell toward Angelo’s saying, well, we just might have to go our separate ways and to, you know, set by quasi quasi partnership. Well, where’s your idea? I’m going to keep coming back to this. And when I sit with Governor Westmore, who I like, who I voted for, who I vehemently disagree with, I believe so far, but I haven’t been given the chance to disagree with him because I haven’t talked to him. I would say to them, what’s the plan? What’s the mix, use work, live play? Show me the architect show me that. We have that. Now. You and I got together a couple of weeks ago down it fails. And we talked at length Jeffrey right now joined us talking about that land development harborplace There’s, there’s blueprints, there’s studies, there’s money spent. There’s all of the things that you as a roofer wouldn’t say what kind of roof we’re going to have on that week. We don’t even have a concept on this bill. And we’re talking about giving them more money than the billion to we’ve already given them, giving them land that they have already misappropriated and can’t use and have never found the use for other than a parking lot. And to throw people like me off when I handed clobbers Cleveland signs and spank the Yankee signs out back in 1996 and 97 when I had the civic pride to support them, because it said, well, it didn’t say Baltimore in New Jersey then but I was trying to get it to say Baltimore in New Jersey it does now, but I’ve been at this a long time. And I’ve clearly I’ve been thrown out by both of them. But that doesn’t stop anybody from listening to me. And it certainly doesn’t stop the facts from flowing in. And to your point where these franchises are going. The stadiums are built. Now it’s what’s what gravy. What cherry on top what whipped cream, what are we going to put around the stadia because it’s Tom Kelso said stages have been here three decades. They are what they are. They generate what they generate. People come people go they park teams good they’ll come teams bad they won’t go we know All of that. But but that land down there has been there for 30 years. What’s going to make you and your family come down there at times when there’s not a game and the Orioles this week? By the way, Bill, I don’t know if you saw this. They released the schedule for the lease that they don’t have. They’re playing games in a stadium. They don’t have a lease for they haven’t agreed the terms. 600 million wasn’t enough for them. And free rent, basically free rent for 100 years. That’s not enough. They’re playing 635. Now, every night, right, which I would say for you and me at home, watching the game. It’s great game starts a little earlier, fix dinner, and it’s over at nine o’clock. It’s great. How does that help downtown 635 games? There’s no, there’s no dinner. You’re not helping any of the restaurants downtown. You’re barely getting people there. I’m just saying it’s good for baseball. It’s good for TV. But 635 you’re moving your games to then? How does that help my city? If I’m the mayor, if I’m the governor, if I’m if I’m living where I was living? Like, how is that going to help the city? How does that make it better for business there? It makes it better for one business. The Angelo’s family. That’s what makes it better?


Bill Cole  26:11

Yeah, I don’t know. I’d have to think about that. I didn’t realize that

Nestor J. Aparicio  26:15

I’ll be going today. Do you piss me off?

Bill Cole  26:17

I didn’t know that was on the thing. But, you know, I so understand that the 1.2 billion, like Tom kelser said, you know, that was legislated? You know, that that was like Maryland legislators got together and they passed a bill.

Nestor J. Aparicio  26:35

So that nobody voted on. Nobody said a word. There was 00 conversation about it. At any point on this show anywhere else, hey, we got to invest in the team. And well, I will agree with that you wouldn’t we? Hey, we gotta make that area better. I think we’re all in agreement on that. Right. Are you in agreement with that?

Bill Cole  26:57

I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t have enough information to know, like, I look, I’m in the camp of. I know that. For a period of time, America thought that investing in pro sports teams in your urban sphere was good for, you know, the city. I don’t know if I agree with that. If I had $1.2 billion to do whatever I wanted with the lift up the city. I’m not sure putting more bathrooms in the stadium would be the thing that I would do. Like there’s other stuff you can do with $1.2 billion, that’s going to have more impact when more people that live in this city. So I don’t know. But my point about the legislature, by

Nestor J. Aparicio  27:44

the way, they’re not poppers, they make plenty of money, you make plenty of money, they could appropriate money differently in their sport, to pay Adley, rutschman 12 million a year instead of 32 million a year and take and flushed and get their own toilets to flush and build their own casino on their own land on their own stuff and make their own parking money and all of that, except that’s not the way it’s worked. And John Angelos knows this. His old man knew this. Major League Baseball knows this. It’s get away with what you can get away with since last time you and I got together at fade these with Matt Campbell. And Jeff right now, three weeks ago, they have unanimously voted to move the Oakland Athletics to Las Vegas after 50 years up there. Right. unanimously.

Bill Cole  28:27

I just think that yes. I mean, what you’re speaking to is this the appearance of kingmakers. Right. So you take wealthy people, and you give them stuff that make them kings when, you know, maybe that’s not necessary? I don’t have any of the data to know whether the economic impact of you know 600 million to both those complexes can have more good


Nestor J. Aparicio  28:51

depends what you do with it. Right. Like literally, right, totally.

Bill Cole  28:55

But my point of bringing up the legislation is like, legislation giveth legislation taketh away. So like, there’s, you know, there are processes where some of that stuff could change. And I think there’s a very interesting, you know, sentiment going on between our elected officials, as to where they all sit on that. And, you know,

Nestor J. Aparicio  29:21

they’re just gonna go back to Annapolis either way, and that’s thing I’m gonna get, it’s sort of like, okay, 1.2 If that’s not good enough for you, John, then we’re gonna have to go back to everybody. And a jerk from Dundalk. He’s had the radio station for 25 years is going to get mouthy and he’s going to bring other people on who are going to be mouthy about how much more we’re going to give you than we’ve already given you and how we’re going to go back to the legislature and find more money from you from Brooklyn Herman and from Derek Davis and from Westmore. And from Saulsbury politicians who might be Republican might be Democrat or or Cumberland politicians or montgomery county and PG County who are going to vote on this too and The question still comes back to what’s the idea? What are we giving you the money for other than we get to keep your lousy baseball team here? I mean, like, what, what, what what are we getting what? What’s going to be the end result of this? And John Angelos doesn’t know his head from his ass, like anybody that’s talked to him knows this. They have no plans, no blueprint. Nobody’s been hired. He’s a visionary without a vision. You know, he’s never run as a popsicle stand. They have not done anything in free agency, they for mouth, they, they, they’re still in the business of trying to intimidate the media, me and Luke six weeks ago, in Arlington, Texas, their own employees 12 weeks ago, free Kevin Brown, I mean, and they’ve won all these games, and they’re not selling tickets, and they don’t have a lease. And nobody’s talking about them. They’re all talking about the nine to three football team bill, honestly, everywhere I go in town to talk about the football team, nobody’s baseball team. And they should make those because

Bill Cole  31:01


and I don’t think this is intentional, though. You know, the skeptic in me wants to say that it is intentional. Like, if you if the piece that you did with Tom Kelso a couple of weeks ago, like anybody who wants to understand this or know more like they need to go listen to that, because

Nestor J. Aparicio  31:19

we’re doing, we’re doing a recap, you know, at the beginning of the beginning for this guy,

Bill Cole  31:24

but you got to go back and listen, because he lays a lot of the groundwork. And there’s a lot of stuff that you start to understand better by what you know, the two of you talked about, and I’m telling you right now, for the average fan, like two minutes into this topic, I’m glazed over. It’s so sophisticated. And so like complex, then I’m just like, wait, what time’s the game? Start again?

Nestor J. Aparicio  31:53

Well, this is what John Angelus hopes it I


Bill Cole  31:56

think, well, I that’s what I’m saying. I don’t know that. It’s all so dubious that in the beginning, they wanted to make it so complicated that nobody would pay attention. That’s probably like an unintended consequence that benefits the players.

Nestor J. Aparicio  32:10

And it did on the massive deal too big time. Just just, you know, like, over the 20 years of mass and how much money they’ve made and siphoned away from the Nationals and all the juice, they got added into this, that the stadium was empty. They were getting their ass kicked on the field, but they were making tons of family money, tons of family money while looking poor. Just so you know.

Bill Cole  32:34

But, but just keep in mind that our elected officials don’t have to have, you know, a resume that includes understanding or have participated in or have defended against large scale civic development. You know what I mean? Like

Nestor J. Aparicio  32:58


Westmore, like he’ll be smiling. But what did Westmore What the hell did Westmore know about the Orioles and the Ravens a year and a half ago when he’s running for office about this stadium deal. I’ve known everything about it. Because it’s been my business to know everything about it for 25 years. It’s like when Angelo’s flippantly said to Dan Connolly on Martin Luther King Day last year, like talking down to Dan Dan’s like spray do for a living? What? What rock? Do you think this I do this professionally? Pow. You know, don’t speak to me like that. And that’s why John Angeles wouldn’t get in the room with me, because I know too much for him for me to sit with him. And a lot of people don’t. And to your point, why would Wes Moore know anything about a parody clause in a Maryland’s like running Robin Hood and doing what he was doing? Why would he know anything about this? And like all of the esoteric of this, it feels to me like Wes puts an Oriole jersey on and goes out there and runs around. And I’ve just never seen a governor want to do that in the middle of a negotiation. And I’ve had a lot of people say to me, it makes them itchy. And I don’t know why it doesn’t make Wes itchy. And I don’t know why he thinks running around with John Angelos is going to like when the public sentiment. I mean, John Angeles can’t find anybody to sit in that box with him. As Dennis points. He couldn’t get his family to sit in the bar. I

Bill Cole  34:18

would I would sit the box with him. Would you? Sure. I mean, think about all the things I want to ask him. Like he might not answer me and I might be out of there in five minutes.

Nestor J. Aparicio  34:27

Well, that’s why you wouldn’t be in the box of questions. Except that like, he’s not even a citizen of the state and we’re giving them all this money. It’s crazy. But But I

Bill Cole  34:36

would respect the fact that he is well, I don’t even know the actual truth but like in charge, right. He is right? He is working as the person in charge of this. Like I will read I would respect that. And I would want to understand


Nestor J. Aparicio  34:58

what’s the commodity and getting salt When we’re talking about a deal, I can talk all day about the deal.

Bill Cole  35:04

The goal is to have a thriving Oriole team in a thriving building and facility. That increases the number of people who can come to the city and have a wonderful experience. That’s the goal. It is a tourist attraction. Like people need to come there and spend money in the surrounding community in the building, back and forth, the parking or the whole deal. It goes into the city coffers, and then okay, then we can go down there and talk to them about how they need to spend it to help pick up the city. But that’s what it that’s the point of it. So, John, there has to be a way for you to make a crap ton of money and do this, like other people are

Nestor J. Aparicio  35:57

doing it. And the hardest part though, Bill, I mean, really the hardest part here is his cowardice, right? And his inability to be front facing on this, when Larry Lucchino was looking for this money and ever been away. He was looking for this money 35 years ago, they were out in front of things, they were answering John Stebbins questions, tough questions, tough questions. Yeah, but that isn’t how the world works. Now this well, but then

Bill Cole  36:20

you come out in public and 100 people are destroying you. One person is supporting you, that’s fine. That’s fine vacation that exists. Well, the guy the

Nestor J. Aparicio  36:31

Inner Harbor has figured that out, right? Like I’ve been inviting him on, everybody’s killing him. I’m not here to kill him. I’m here to like, love the project up and understand it better. And at some point, you have to be front facing and sit on shows like this, and answer questions. And it’s simple. That’s all here you

Bill Cole  36:48

except if we sat down with our PR firm, and our PR firm said, hey, look, let’s figure this out. We need these four people to help us get this deal done. Well,

Nestor J. Aparicio  36:59

Chad Steele’s the guy’s there as the PR guy, then you have what you have, you know, you have an expert from out of town?


Bill Cole  37:07

Yeah, I think I was thinking that not the teams like like, John, I don’t think he’s going to the teams

Nestor J. Aparicio  37:14

but visit Baltimore just hired an agency, the fifth one in a row from out of town. You know, so it’s sort of like putting people together and the relationships that you want, the Greater Baltimore committee wants that Downtown Partnership, and all of these groups and you fly off. And as business owners, we want to go back to the days when all the banks were here, and McCormick was downtown, and Black and Decker. And like all of that. At some point, the guys who own the teams have to be front facing and Sashi brown can’t make his first move getting rid of a 30 year reporters press press credentials and hiding except when he shows up for pictures that look real wistful. And you’re taken by the Baltimore Ravens staff out on the field, like at some point, you have to do what to casted for 20 years, which is come out and answer questions and meet the BSL owners and be front facing and talk about future plans and talk about your goals and your dreams. Talk about your challenges, answer your critics, all of that stuff. You know, you

Bill Cole  38:11

you literally unless you have more information than I don’t know, you like sort of affirmed my position. Visit Baltimore hires an out of state firm and that is perceived in your default position as negative. You don’t know whether they were the best firm for the job you like but you’ve you view that

Nestor J. Aparicio  38:37


to do stuff locally, and the first chance they get

Bill Cole  38:40

they don’t i i?

Nestor J. Aparicio  38:44

There has to be somebody here who could do it really well. And there has to be somebody here who could do it better than somebody could do it from out of town. I promise you that I wouldn’t a fan on today. They’re run by Odyssey put any of these additives Dude your call frickin roofing your local 690 19 There’s no way National Roofing is going to do the job but in Baltimore better than you’re gonna do it. Like it’s just not. And I’m not anti guys, but a town I like out of town God, I have all sorts of friends that came from out of town and made this their hometown. But there has to be a point where if you’re pitching local, that be local.

Bill Cole  39:23

All I’m telling what a billion


Nestor J. Aparicio  39:24

dollars from the state claim residency in Maryland,

Bill Cole  39:29

national those national firms that I compete against, they do business here. And for one reason or another, their business model and their buyer, their customer is aligned better than me. Right? My only goal is they at least know what my offer is

Nestor J. Aparicio  39:47

when you can’t say shop local on Saturday and Cyber Monday and local business Saturday and local, local, local and then and then when given the chance hire the guy from out of town like I don’t know. But

Bill Cole  40:01


the point, the point I’m trying to make this is there you we don’t give anyone the ability to defend their position. Because we have a mouthpiece right? That people immediately can go to make their own judgment, and then spew negativity. So as a person who you want to be out in front of stuff, if you don’t give an owl, I’m sure our still running visible, and we’re right if you don’t give our time. And it might take an hour and a half to explain why they hired the firm they hired. Maybe it’s crap, maybe it’s bad, maybe it’s good. It doesn’t matter. Our world does not afford people, the 90 minutes that it would take to understand that decision. So our default position is, well, that doesn’t fit the model. And it doesn’t I hear you, that doesn’t

Nestor J. Aparicio  40:58

doesn’t fit the message. It’s not it’s bad messaging.

Bill Cole  41:03

So isn’t there? Don’t you believe there has to be a reason? Like, that’s my only question to the universe. If it doesn’t fit the message. Don’t you think that there has to be a reason? Or is this person? Do we just believe that everyone is idiots and they’re out to screw us all?

Nestor J. Aparicio  41:20

I don’t know. Right? Because


Bill Cole  41:22

because I don’t know either. But that’s our default position. Because we we go to the negative all the time. And because of social media, we have this huge megaphone. Like I don’t envy the those people’s positions at all right? I don’t envy Jon’s position to try and get this figured out. Because there is no winning for him. There’s no winning either he gets lots of money. There could be accountability hates him. Oh, oh, you know, I’m for that accountability is free.

Nestor J. Aparicio  41:56

If you don’t have that, then what do you have? You have nothing. And that’s what I would say to Chad steel and Sashi Brown and Steve shoddy. And John Angelo’s is that I’m you’re talking about it for 10s of 1000s of people. I promise you I’ve seen my numbers have gone up John Eisenberg and I did a piece last week and people are clicking on it because people are interested in it. You know why the rich did? It’s their money. They know how incompetent the Angelo’s family has been, they see that the football team, God bless them and all doesn’t bring anything to the city. I mean, they go down they play for three hours eight times a year and that does not that unto itself does not populate the city. Sunday afternoon games. Even the Monday night games are worse because nobody gets there. I mean, there is no impact to the city on those game nights. The baseball thing you can make a great case that I remember what three and a half million people look like down there. And I’m old enough to remember that and I’m old enough to remember what a vibrant vibrant I paid for it in my tax dollars as a resident I lived downtown for 19 years I speak with real experience and seeing it it become Tumbleweed and seeing it go away and now see them make decisions like 630 Baseball is good for the Orioles. Well, it’s good for the Orioles. It’s not good for Philips. It’s not you know it’s it’s not good for Ruth’s Chris it’s not good for Morton’s it’s not it’s not good for any of that stuff down there. But I don’t know that it ever was there. I don’t know that it was ever designed to be and certainly now it’s designed to do nothing except funnel people into the Angelo’s Emporium. That’s the baseball model, the baseball model is going to be we’re going to build a bigger better Dempsey’s and put a you know, kick our MVPs name off the walls, we put gambling in there, and we’re going to do all of this stuff to benefit the Orioles not to benefit the city. So when he starts talking about benefiting the city, that’s when I’m gonna call bullshit on that. And that’s why he doesn’t want to sit with me because they’ve never made a decision ever, ever, ever, ever in 30 years. Peter G Angeles never made any decision that ever had anything to do with helping anybody but Peter G Angeles and that’s a that’s a track record. I’ll die on that hill. And and I’ve watched it and the battery in Atlanta it benefits all of them. I’ve been in downtown San Diego I’ve been in these places where they’ve tried to to your point have the Civic dream that baseball will anchor anchor and area and allow nightlife dinner, other business commerce, foot traffic, less crime all the via more bodies all of that that you want to see. But, and Bill out. We’re going overtime on this. You and I are gonna get together Tuesday at State Fair bill calls your coal roofing Gordian energy, my dear friend that I like to fight with sometimes. I’ll let a raskins gonna be here. And Dennis is coming over to stay Farrell on Tuesday too. So it might get a little spicy during the holidays. I would just say this and you can give me your soliloquy on it. What’s the idea? You know that that’s I’m going to keep going back to Money money money, money, money, money, money, money, money. Money’s not going to generate the idea that me the buildings are there the warehouses. They’re the lands, they’re the harbors. They’re all that’s there. What’s the idea? And it’s not top golf, by the way, they found that out.

Bill Cole  45:06

Yeah, I don’t I don’t have any issue with that question. But you know, if you want more money, you have to tell me why. So and as far as I’m concerned, like I’m unaware of any tax dollars that gets spent without oversight. So like, for them to take that position is is kind of like

Nestor J. Aparicio  45:33


a non starter. It should be a non starter for the governor of Maryland. It should be a non starter for the governor of Maryland, whatever his name is, whatever his Democrat, Republican, black white women female Martian, the the public position for the governor of Maryland should be that, that right there. But you know, what’s the idea? How does it benefit the citizens? And where’s the oversight? And do we keep art to the to the people have their thumb on this? Do we have oversight for what we’re giving you this free money for? To benefit our community? And that’s a question every you can love the Oreos, I love the I love the Oreos, despite the fact they don’t love me. I love the Ravens before they existed. I love them into existence back in the air in the day. So I you know, I’ll be here with Chad Steel’s gone, and John Harbaugh has gone and Eric the cost has gone. And Steve shot, he’s gone. I’m going to live long enough to do that. So I’ll be here when all of this is over with. I’m worried about what what they’re doing, what kind of heist they’re trying to pull. And I’m, I’m on it. And people should be appreciative that somebody is on it.

Bill Cole  46:39

I see it as a significantly missed opportunity. Right? Like, if you look at what Dave Bramble is trying to do, right? And the importance of that project. And he is efforting to really get everyone to embrace this concept. Now look, hey, we got to make some decisions. Some people are gonna like him. Some people aren’t. Here’s why we made them. Here’s what benefits it brings, you know, his labor and listening. But the idea is that we need in our case, maybe it’s a handful, but sometimes it can just be one. You know, you need one big thing for the community to rally around. And for it to be the thing that gets people to change the narrative.

Nestor J. Aparicio  47:33

Like, nobody is going to rally around the Angelo’s family here.

Bill Cole  47:37

I get it.

Nestor J. Aparicio  47:38

I mean, I’ve just been honest with you, and I will stand on the front of the free to birds flag from 18 years ago. I like there is not going to be a point where Wes Moore stands and says Meet John Angelo’s. He’s the visionary. Stop with that, dude. I mean, come on now. I mean, gotcha. Oh, no,

Bill Cole  47:57

I gotcha. What I’m saying is, you have to change. The number one narrative problem we have is still the story that’s being told by other people about Baltimore. For people that come here, they love it. Everything’s cool. We have we have wonderful town and it thrives. So, but one of these big projects can change that narrative. Right? It can change the way people talk about the city. So if you’re trying to do a $1.2 billion stadium deal, right? Like, figure out a way to get everybody to rally around it. Figure out a way for it to change the narrative. Talk about the things that it’s going to improve and isn’t better televisions or faster elevators, right? Like that, isn’t it? Those are the opportunities that they have. You know, right now, again, to your point, it’s about Angelo’s, it’s about capitalism. It’s about big development, it’s about professional sports. If they’re missing the opportunity, that if they just could figure out a way to tell this story

Nestor J. Aparicio  49:11

to make it about Baltimore

Bill Cole  49:14


they might get twice as much cash star money. Right? Because who isn’t going to get behind that?

Nestor J. Aparicio  49:23

I hear you man. Bill goes here. Tell me what you do get up on roofs what’s the roofing business called to be on roofs this morning? Dan your guys are party out there man you do things right wing is

Bill Cole  49:32

cold but you know we’re powering through everything’s really good people are still having to fix the roof sorry, but that’s kind of good for me. I you know, again, it remains this thing where like look, if you just do some proactive maintenance, it will extend the life of your roof and you will save money in the long run. So we

Nestor J. Aparicio  49:55

get a guy out on your roof to look because you haven’t been up on your roof lately. Bill sends a guy, he’s done it for me. And you get up on the roof and says, Yeah, you know, next five years is gonna be happy, you might wanna put little money in the, in the piggy bank, you know, for 2026 27. And by then maybe we could do solar for you. And maybe we can, but at least there’s to your point, we have an adult conversation, we have a strategy, there’s a plan, there’s a plan, give me a plan, right?


Bill Cole  50:22

Yeah, I have not met a customer. And I’ve been doing this pretty long time. I haven’t met a customer yet, who was actually thrilled about buying a new roof. Right? Like, it’s not a new car, it’s not something that you enjoy, like, it’s, it’s a necessary evil, we appreciate that. I would like you to prolong that purchase as much as possible. And there’s literally things we can do that.

Nestor J. Aparicio  50:48

I think it decks death taxes, right, you know, the things, roofs, right, you have to have a roof, like, you know, a roof over your head, right? Like,

Bill Cole  50:57

I can appreciate sometimes in like residential circumstances, like, if you bought a metal roof, you know, like some people, that would really be a fun experience for them, it will change the aesthetics of the house, and they might really like it and it just has a little more to it. In commercial roofing, you don’t see it. You know, it literally is just an umbrella for your building. And, you know, our concept of how much it costs is not very, very good. So there’s always a little sticker shock. Right? So I, and I’ve been through all those conversations, how

Nestor J. Aparicio  51:33


much can totally get it, I totally get it. And then I see like, your guys up on the roof, and it’s 12 degrees out in our hall and stuff up and the steams coming off of that. And I was like, Yeah, tough work you guys do. But yeah, be proactive, go get Bilko a ring, find a cold roofing, find them out in front of Baltimore positive. If you are in the business space, and you see if you have a roof, everybody has a roof. So if your building has a roof, Bill can be there. I’m sorry, we fought so much here this week about this, but it’s a lot of money. And I don’t think enough people are talking about a bill.

Bill Cole  52:07

I don’t define what we just did is bought so it’s cool. I thought we had a very passionate discussion. And

Nestor J. Aparicio  52:17

I really do want to get David Bramble on the show if anybody knows David Brambleton to come on, because I really want to understand what they’re doing. And I don’t want to ask other people about it. I want to ask him, so you know, I am not a negative. I’m Baltimore positive, right? Like, if this is good for the city, show me how it’s good for the city. And that goes for John Angeles and Sashi Brown and everybody else it’s stuck in me lately. A governor Westmore is not talking me. He’s gonna be here soon. He’s been emailing me. We’re trying to put a date together. Later on in the month. We’re gonna be doing the Maryland crab cakes were all month long three in a row this week. Coco’s on Wednesday. gertrudes. On Thursday, Friday at the Hollywood casino in Maryville. Then next week, we’re at State Fair in Catonsville. We’re going to be at Farr and daughter Acurio wellness on the 15th. We’re also putting the show into wise mark, it’s up in honey go. I’m working on the date on that. And we’re going to end the year and Bill will appreciate this because deviled eggs will be involved. We’re going to be at fade lease to end the fade Lee’s run of 160 years at the world famous Lexington market. They’re moving into the new market in January. So we’ll do that later on in the month. It’s December. It’s coming in like a lion. The ravens are 93 We’re on bye week we’re doing tons of crabcake tour conversations talking to lots of friends talking about the stadium situation in $1.2 billion of your money we are WNS da 1570, Towson Baltimore. We never stop talking Baltimore. Positive

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